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Do you believe there actually is a solution that could ... - 3/1/2009 11:49:55 AM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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I see these threads start up that attack one side or the other of a political view. I happen to be one of those people who see things on all sides of the coin and have varying degrees of agreement depending on the topic Conservative on something Independent on others and Liberal on some.

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

Con against the Libs, Dems against the Radicals and everyone at everyones throats do you honestly believe that there will be any one solution that would bring this country back together?

I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this? What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

Steel

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RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 11:56:35 AM

aravain

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~FR~

No. Part of the weakness (and the greatest strength) of the country is that there will never be an agreement on what the country needs.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

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RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 12:07:19 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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We definitely don't need a war. Fundamentally it is necessary that the leaders on the right cease spreading the lie that leftists aren't loyal to the nation. Calling liberals traitors or posting fantasies of the destruction of the nation based on such a simple thing as a shift in national policy to the left serves only to make violence against those who disagree with someone politically more likely.

The solution to The problems the US face can be solved as our problems alway shave been is to have smart people arrive at workable compromises. No more simple answers to complex problems.

And finally those who seek power by abusing and contorting the faith of their followers need to be pushed to the sidelines. Nothing can more surely lead to violence than a continuation of the so called "culture war."

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 3

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 12:12:59 PM

Roselaure

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There has always been diversity of opinion in this country, and people unafraid to voice their opinions and for that I am grateful. Pre internet you got the benefit of the opinions of politicians and well known personages, and the opinions of your neighbors and coworkers. Many communities are rather homogeneous, so it appeared that there was more general agreement than their probably was. Now of course you get to see anybody's opinion who cares to post it on a blog or message board.

_____________________________

Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
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(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 4

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 12:38:15 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I see these threads start up that attack one side or the other of a political view. I happen to be one of those people who see things on all sides of the coin and have varying degrees of agreement depending on the topic Conservative on something Independent on others and Liberal on some.

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

Con against the Libs, Dems against the Radicals and everyone at everyones throats do you honestly believe that there will be any one solution that would bring this country back together?

I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this? What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

Steel

Well, I'm biased on the liberal side, so this is going to appear (maybe rightfully so) biased even though I'm trying not to make it that way.

We hear a lot about the liberal media bias, and maybe it is true, but if it exists it is subtle.

Compare that with Fox News which blatantly attacks Democrats and anything even remotely liberal.

You've mentioned the posts of a second civil war. This ridiculous idea has been fostered in conservative blogs and dutifully repeated here by conservative posters.

The same with the inane notion of class warfare that we keep hearing about.

I think the most telling thing though is the recent threads of what conservatives think and what liberals think.

In the first you saw a lot of ranting and raving about how the country is headed for destruction because of Obama.

In the second there were mostly reasoned arguments supporting Obama but still criticizing his mistakes.

When have you seen Bush being criticized by Republicans except during his last six months when they abandoned him completely?

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 5

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 1:58:22 PM

awmslave

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Joined: 3/31/2006
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quote:

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

What are the problems? I do not see conservative vs. liberal ideology fight as a problem but rather as a process how the ideas develop and progress.
The problems in economy are separate issue: just follow the money.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 6

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 3:05:10 PM

corysub

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I see these threads start up that attack one side or the other of a political view. I happen to be one of those people who see things on all sides of the coin and have varying degrees of agreement depending on the topic Conservative on something Independent on others and Liberal on some.

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

Con against the Libs, Dems against the Radicals and everyone at everyones throats do you honestly believe that there will be any one solution that would bring this country back together?

I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this? What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

Steel

I agree with you..and I beleive many people here on the other side would agree too. Most of us, passion aside, would be more than happy to see our representatives sit down and work together..putting the best minds of the country at work to figure out how we can work our way out of the severe problems facing the country which could, I think, be terminal for the America many of us have grown up knowing.
However, that's not going to happen. We have a dysfunctional government of power hungry men and woman on both sides of the aisle. Some of us possibly worked in a corporate environment. On a much less important scale, the "office politician" gets his/her way, doing things not in the benefit of the corporation but more to benefit himself. If it means getting rid of someone who might be a challange some day to his progress..that person is gone..notwitstanding the fact that they might be the brightest person doing the job.

It's all about power. I think everyone should drive through and walk through Washington D.C. You can feel the vibrations of people "moving and shaking" things up...the testosterone is flowing both in the males and females. It's cialis on steroids and I swear everyone has an erection , men and woman, that lasts more than four hours and ready to plunge it into anyone who gets in their way. Not that this might not be enjoyable in the proper setting..but not in the politics of our country. It is the real world, however.

< Message edited by corysub -- 3/1/2009 3:07:31 PM >

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 7

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 3:18:22 PM

mstrj69

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The only solution I can see is for the people to take back the country. This can only be done by voting all incumbents out of office and thus sending a strong message that things have to change. The politicians will not put term limits on themselves so it is up to the voting americans to see to it they are removed from office.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 8

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 6:22:32 PM

StrangerThan

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I admit. I didn't start paying much attention to politics until the Clinton years, and mostly what I noticed was how hard Republicans worked to find the next Watergate. The skewering was constant, the nightly news almost like a celebrity roasting only there was nothing funny about it. I remember folks arguing politics before that time frame. What I don't remember was such intensity and outright hatred in the attacks upon each other. For the first time, I realized that politicians didn't do what was best for the country. They did what was best for their party and for them.

Bush came along. The polarization deepened. The bickering between sides grew stronger and laced with more and more disdain. 9-11 came and for a while much of the rhetoric died. Bush had a 90 percent approval rating then. I had no problem, and still have no problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. It was Iraq and the seemingly endless series of fuckups, evasions, the constant spitting on the constitution, and the erosion of personal liberties that came after where he lost my support.

Now Obama is in office. I'm willing to give the man a fair shake to see what falls out. So far, I'm not impressed, but hey, it's early in the game. The rapid push for the stimulus/tarp package that might just be the road to hell for the american economy, the pork, the pet projects, the immediate turn around on his own campaign promise to put bills out for review... none of it shows me any change, any real responsibility, anything other than Dems have two branches of governement and are going to use it to further their own agenda.

Like Republicans before them, they're missing a big lesson of the Republican years. That being, no matter how much support you have going into the fray, when you cater to the special interest and the fringes in the party, you start losing the people who elected you. Those aren't the party faithful. Those are the swing voters. But I digress.

What I see now in terms of the gulf. Its no longer a gulf. Its a chasm. The hatred is well seated between the sides. There is little to no decent discussion between them. No matter how you start, it devolves to mud-slinging and devolves quickly. What I also see now is a lot of true anger, not just the pouty kind of crap that happens when one side wins and the other loses. It is real and it is strong. I've heard and seen more secession talk in the past few months - both blue and red - than I have my entire life. Whether or not something needs to happen isn't a question I can answer. What I can tell you though is that a man once told me that fights break out in certain ways. First there is the issue or issues between people. Second comes the name calling and the shoving. Then comes the fists.

Along that line, we seem closer to the end of the second step than anywhere else along the graph.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 9

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 6:31:36 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Actually, I think the difference of opinion is one of the strengths of this country and part of the solution to our problems. The course of government in furtherance of the people's interests is not a straight one. It is one that needs constant corrections, left and right, to keep progress moving. By allowing diverse opinions and spirited debate, any problem can be examined from all angles and solutions come to light.

While it may be more peaceful to have full accord on all issues, it certainly is not more productive.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 10

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 6:41:00 PM

rexrgisformidoni

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Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Actually, I think the difference of opinion is one of the strengths of this country and part of the solution to our problems. The course of government in furtherance of the people's interests is not a straight one. It is one that needs constant corrections, left and right, to keep progress moving. By allowing diverse opinions and spirited debate, any problem can be examined from all angles and solutions come to light.

While it may be more peaceful to have full accord on all issues, it certainly is not more productive.

How do you figure? I think the constant jerking back and forth do nothing but divide us even further. Once upon a time I was a democrat, and the constant bickering and moaning left a sour taste in mouth for both "sides". The only real solution that I can see is starting over, cleaning house, and getting rid of the party system.

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Genghis Khan

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

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RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 7:42:56 PM

Vendaval

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this?

That would be very, very bad.

What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

For starters we need to keep an open dialogue going and hold people accountable for their actions regardless if their stature in society.

Steel

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 12

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 8:20:33 PM

kdsub

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Steel I don't know how old you are but in my life there has never been a time when the opposing parties have agreed on issues or worked together to solve problems. From what I can gather from my knowledge of history there never has been a time of cooperation...accept at times of war.

With all the problems this country has faced things seem to work out pretty good most of the time. So maybe cooperation is not required for the country to move forward. Maybe the opposing views are actually important in the process to choose between options. It could keep us from going overboard in a direction that could turn out to be unhealthy.

I know it is infuriating at times… even disgusting but I believe it serves a good purpose and checks the power of any one party.

Butch

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 13

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 10:30:26 PM

Honsoku

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I see these threads start up that attack one side or the other of a political view. I happen to be one of those people who see things on all sides of the coin and have varying degrees of agreement depending on the topic Conservative on something Independent on others and Liberal on some.

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

Is there a solution? Yes. Is it going to ever be popular enough to succeed? Not bloody likely.

quote:

Con against the Libs, Dems against the Radicals and everyone at everyones throats do you honestly believe that there will be any one solution that would bring this country back together?

Yep. But almost no one would like it.

quote:

I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this?

It is an absolutely, fantastically, moronic idea.

quote:

What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

To actually stand unified? The same thing a populous has always needed; a serious external threat. Is this the same thing as the solution to the problems facing America? No.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 14

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 10:40:47 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

My Question is if you honestly believe there is a solution to the problems of America with the people divided as they are?

What are the problems? I do not see conservative vs. liberal ideology fight as a problem but rather as a process how the ideas develop and progress.
The problems in economy are separate issue: just follow the money.

And follow the regulators.Or lack of them.

Saw a guy on 60 minutes claim he was telling the FEC about Madoff for years.Years!

With no cop(bush`s FEC)to stop him,Madoff stole billions and billions before being stopped.

This mess isn`t separate from government`s functions,it`s partly a result of dysfunctional government.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/1/2009 10:43:03 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 15

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/1/2009 10:52:21 PM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Steel I don't know how old you are but in my life there has never been a time when the opposing parties have agreed on issues or worked together to solve problems. From what I can gather from my knowledge of history there never has been a time of cooperation...accept at times of war.

I am young, I am 28, but I do not refer to any time I have lived in I refer to the time of the creation of this country from the Declaration to the Bill of Rights. When we fought to keep this country from falling apart and losing everything. When a Patriot was EVERY American Citizens Responsibility. Yes I know I look upon a Past I do not know as well as my fore fathers did but I do know this much. My Father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather all spoke about America in a way that made you feel pride just to live here. I don't hear people talk like that much anymore and the ones that I do hear talk like that are usually Immigrants from other countries as they receive thier citizenship because they worked hard for it and even they eventually fade in their country love over time. I am talking about a time when people DID dictate what the Goverment was and did so with force because it was necessary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

With all the problems this country has faced things seem to work out pretty good most of the time. So maybe cooperation is not required for the country to move forward. Maybe the opposing views are actually important in the process to choose between options. It could keep us from going overboard in a direction that could turn out to be unhealthy.

More than anything else I believe it is this apathy that blinds the nation. This Nation will ALWAYS continue moving forward whether it be to green pastures of off a cliff. Growth cannot be contained it can be stifled or killed outright but it cannot be contained, no matter the choices of our leaders and leaders to come this country will continue on the question is will it continue in greatness or in defeat. But the arguments are not usually in directions they are circular of I am Right and You are Wrong to which the opposing view feels the same way, Hell I am guilty of this myself but one thing I do know is that more and more people seem to want to have our govenment decide what is best for them as long as they agree with it and in my opinion America was supposed to be a place where a Man was supposed to have the right to Choose for himself. No I'm Not talking Laws and things although before they are made into laws we all get a say with our vote. Most people don;t get involved on that level, I mean I know the last time I went to a City Hall Meeting it was because something was directly affecting ME at the time but LOTS of things were discussed at these meetings.

When you say:

quote:

It could keep us from going overboard in a direction that could turn out to be unhealthy.

I disagree, because most offten times I see them as ways of gaining momentum not discussing the possibilities I see them as ways of aliging mass and the weight of people who simply want to WIN and they will back whatever it is that is fighting to be won regardless of what it is. In this day we back People and not the Ideas they stand behind. This is part of what I preceive to be the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I know it is infuriating at times… even disgusting but I believe it serves a good purpose and checks the power of any one party.

On this I agree. On a LARGE scale I agree with this on a Small Scale I was surprised to find out what people thought the Most Recent Bail Out was for. If you ever want to see what I am talking about just ask your Friends if they REALLY understand how this money is to be used and then After you have done that ask an Economics Professor what using Taxes to Stimulate an Economic Trend eventually does when the people who pay the taxes will still be responsible for the Balance.

I was amazed to find out how this really works and that is why I am so very much so against it and every Stimulas Dollar I get will be Spent on HARD Currency which will maintain a Global Value. This Thread isn't about the Stimulas Bill However it is about a country that would seem divided on Many Sides.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 16

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/2/2009 12:15:13 AM

DeviantlyD

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I have heard those who believe we need a second civil war and a cleansing of America, what are your views on this? What do you think this once great country of America needs to come back together and stand unified again?

Steel

Well holy shit. I hope this particular suggestion is seen as the ludicrous idea it is.

As for unification, who knows. I think it's somewhat akin to a family. They don't always get along, but when times are tough, they will stand up for each other. At the end of the day you all are a family in a sense. (I'm not an American btw.) You have your disagreements and such, but you have to know that, as the lyrics to the song go, "united we stand, divided we fall". That was a sentiment I saw everywhere after 9-11. I would hope it doesn't take another catastrophic tragedy to pull everyone together.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 17

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/2/2009 12:23:34 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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IMO,we are still as united as we were after the attacks on our Pentagon and WTCs.

We all(well,mostly) still want the same things.Getting those responsible for the attacks.A 6 year diversion isn`t going to stop us from getting justice.If it did,the terrorists would win a victory.

It`s only a very small but vocal minority of Americans who`ve left the table in a snit and don`t want to be civil.

They`ll be welcomed back when they learn manners and clean(the blood off) their hands.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DeviantlyD)

Post #: 18

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/2/2009 12:03:20 PM

samboct

Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
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I think we're in trouble- because I seem to be agreeing with Butch.....

I'm currently reading a biography on Lincoln. What's clear is that Lincoln (like Obama) was a pragmatist. He'd try things- and if they didn't work- he'd try something else. He didn't come into the presidency with a grand idea of how to keep the union together- hell, his thought process was that the Southern states had a majority of people that wanted to be in the Union- but that a few rebels were supporting secession and that things would soon blow over. He discovered to his chagrin that he was in error. He discovered that there was no mechanism to integrate the actions of the army and navy- and he wound up being commander in chief because he couldn't get rid of the job. Nor did Lincoln have widespread popular support- most people thought him a country bumpkin with no manners or class. Yet today, he's seen as one of our best presidents.

Another guy who history now views favorably is Harry Truman. Thomas Dewey, his opponent in '48 ran on an election platform of "You can vote for a Republican- or a Communist." Truman responded by comparing Republicans to the Nazis- and won a squeeker of an election. (He didn't win New York.) This country's election politics have always been rough-harkening back to a more "genteel" time just shows you don't know the truth of the situation.

Butch is right- the country has always been divided, but will generally pull together in time of war. Occasionally this patriotism has been abused- ranging from the Spanish American war of 1898 to Viet Nam and Iraq.

From my perspective- the Bush years were when a razor thin majority (and that's debatable) had a vision of the country that the other half didn't share in the slightest- and wholly ignored them. Both Lincoln and Truman did take into account what the other side thought- and extended many olive branches. Obama looks like he's going down this path as well. Part of me as a liberal who's had a career go up in smoke (and many of my friends) under Republican cutbacks in science wants the Republicans to get the ass-whuppin' they richly deserve- but a more mature part of me has learned that vengeance is rarely a solution- and not in a democracy. It's clear that our educational system- especially in history has been deficient- since we've largely followed the same path that got is in trouble in the late 1920s- along with listening to an oracle that no one understood. (Greenspan) As always- those who do not learn from the lessons of history, will repeat the class.....

Sam

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 19

RE: Do you believe there actually is a solution that co... - 3/2/2009 12:21:03 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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Sam...I'm not sure how to take the first line in your post...

...but I'm glad to hear we agree from time to time.

Butch

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 20

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