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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 2/28/2009 3:49:05 PM   
kdsub


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MzMia I like simple and to the point.

Rather than specific programs to discuss…why not re-read the Preamble to the Constitution…it says it all.

It says one of the jobs of the government is to ensure the health, happiness, and the well-being of its citizens… in another word the welfare.

There is a balance… providing too much of the above may cause a hardship on the nation that would be counter productive. But within reasonable means the government should do all necessary to ensure the above.


Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/28/2009 3:50:48 PM >

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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 2/28/2009 3:57:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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      Pursuit of happiness, KD.  Pursuit.  No guarantee of catching it.

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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 2/28/2009 4:39:23 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

     Pursuit of happiness, KD.  Pursuit.  No guarantee of catching it.


I mean this one...lol

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Promote the general welfare is the section I am referring to.

Butch


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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 3/1/2009 7:15:27 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

How much does the American government owe it's citizens?
This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does

the "government" owe us?

Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months,

years, a lifetime?
Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure?
Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless?
Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone?
Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college?


Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone?
These are questions that many of us are pondering, and these are issues that seem to
be facing America.


The whole point of government is a utilitarian approach to social life, not to create a sense of entitlement; by that I mean that government is a mechanism for individuals getting what they need where and when they can't achieve it by individual effort alone.

For me, you can't pay people to do nothing for eternity; it will act as a drain on the economy and cause social issues. Similarly, you can't write off a section of society and leave them to spend their time not contributing to the economy or society; this will act as a drain on the economy, too. The answer, for me, is a balance between giving people the space to chase their individual initiatives, while putting something back into society in order to maximise economic output/social stability.

Redistribution of wealth? I'm a fan, because I believe that when the right balance is found, and it is adminstered in line with the principles of getting people into work, then law and order will thrive. This is pretty much my idea of the point of government, which leads me to the centre ground position when voting. I prefer a balance, because there's two sides to every argument.

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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 3/1/2009 7:38:54 AM   
Huntertn


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I cann't aswer most of those question..However I do know  a lot of people are hurting today and not thu anything they did, but by policys that actuall lowered the starndard of living for many of us, and god knows for furture generations.  And for the first time since WW2 the middle class is smaller than ever..and history has proven that when that happens and no steps are taken to reverse it....bad things happen to that nation that fails its citizens.....

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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 3/1/2009 12:18:53 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
How much does the American government owe it's citizens?
This question is hard for me to phrase, but I mean what does

the "government" owe us?

 
For me, the question is more about what our values are as a society rather than what we are owed.  Government is us, ultimately.  It's our money, we elect representatives to decide how it should be spent.  Many of us give them input about how much we want to contribute and how it should be spent, but we're all telling them different things.
 
What kind of society do we want?  If we want to eliminate government social spending, where are we going to get the money to support all of the folks who rely on those programs?  It's not like there's an overabundance of well-paid jobs out there to pick up the slack - most folks on assistance are already working.  We can't expect charities to fill in the gap.  Many of them were struggling when times were good and are really in trouble now.  Will we pass living wage legislation so that workers can get by without public assistance?  That's what I'd really like to see, but I think it has a snowball's chance in hell of happening in my lifetime.
 
What would happen if we didn't fill in the gap and just cut these people off?  It's not like we could do this without some consequences.  I think things would get fairly ugly

quote:

Should the government give us welfare/unemployment benefits for months,

years, a lifetime?

 
There has to be some kind of safety net for the unemployed and for people who are unemployable for whatever reason.  Time limits are pretty arbitrary.  I'd like to see financial assistance workers have some flexibility in dealing with these folks and be able to recommend extending or cutting off benefits depending on the person's individual circumstances.  These folks are very like drug counselors - they can usually tell when a client is trying to play them or get around the system, and which clients are trying but struggling and need a bit more help.


quote:

Should the government help out large numbers of people on the brink of foreclosure?

 
Again, I think that we need to look at individual circumstances.  I think that those who could have qualified for conventional mortgages but were put into riskier mortgages should be given the opportunity to renegotiate, and oblige whoever holds the mortgage to make them a reasonable deal.  I don't think that there's much we can do for folks who shouldn't have been given a mortgage in the first place or folks whose circumstances have changed to where they can no longer afford their mortgage payments.  If they owe more than the home is worth, letting the bank take it may be their best option.  Keeping people in homes they bought but can't afford just delays the inevitable.

quote:

Should the government feed, clothe and give shelter to those that are homeless?

 
The alternative is to have them starving and raggedy and on the streets, is it not?  I think that most folks would prefer not to see that, so that means we have to have somewhere for them to go.  Or work on an invisibility machine, but I think that paying for food and shelter is probably cheaper.  Then there's the whole crime thing - left on the streets many of them commit crimes and become victims of crime.  That costs a lot of money in police time, court costs, jail space...  That stuff doesn't happen so much if they have some support. 
 
They're opening a "wet house" here because it's going to cost a lot less to babysit the city's 50 or so worst chronic drunks than it costs to keep arresting them and putting them in detox and all that.  They're figuring it will cost less than half than it costs now to deal with these folks.

quote:

Should the government provide extensive free health care for everyone?

 
The uninsured cost our economy between $65Bil and $130Bil a year in lost productivity.  Personally, I can't believe that it's not a big deal to us as a country that 18,000-20,000 people die every year because they don't have health insurance and can't get the care they need.  I think that we have to come up with some kind of universal health care, and it makes sense that govt would be the funding mechanism.  I don't think that this is something we should expect employers to provide.  We'd pay more in taxes, but the cost of health care per person would go down because of savings in overhead and administrative costs, and businesses would be freed of this huge boat-anchor of an expense so could theoretically cut prices which would offset higher taxes.  We'd have a healthier and more productive workforce and wouldn't be losing that $65-$130 Billion a year.
 
I'd like to see some kind of hybrid system.  Preventive care would be free for everyone, because it saves money.  I'd like Single-claim-form major medical coverage kind of the way my insurance is now, with a reasonable deductible and copay (subsidized for those who can't afford them), out-of-pocket maximums and lifetime spending limits and such.  If folks want more coverage than they get on the govt plan they can buy additional coverage, like they do now with Medicare.  I'd like everyone to get copies of their entire bill.  They've shown that people are better health care consumers when they know what their care costs, even when they aren't paying the bill themselves.  Throw in some more cost-saving stuff like wellness programs, education, use of nurse-practitioners, minute clinics, etc., and we could start to get things under control.

quote:

Should the government pay for all those that qualify to go to college?

 
Would we have jobs for all of them if we did?  It's a problem they're facing in some parts of Europe - I don't remember where, exactly.  More people with degrees than there are jobs for people with degrees.  Fewer than a third of jobs in the US require a college degree.  I'm kind of on the fence about this.  Paying for college kind of sets a bar.  You not only need acceptable grades or scores, you have to be motivated enough to figure out how to pay for it.  There's a different kind of if mom and dad are paying.  They're going to want to see some results for their money.  I think that we have an obligation to see that anyone who has the grades and motivation isn't priced out of the system, but I don't know about making it free.


quote:

Should the government provide more cradle to the grave benefits to everyone?

 
I'm inclined to think that govt should provide everyone with health care and education through secondary school.  Beyond those things, it should be on an as-needed basis. 


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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 3/1/2009 5:03:55 PM   
sharainks


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To me the question is a bit different.  The government has nothing it doesn't take from it's citizens.  The question then is what do I feel like I can expect to get from other hard working citizens of this country? Certainly those who truly can't care for themselves should be provided for.  The states could provide most else cheaper without the interference of the federal govt and its endless federal bureaucracy. 

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RE: How much does the American government OWE it's citi... - 3/1/2009 7:46:40 PM   
MzMia


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I agree with just about everything you stated Mme Gigs.
Sharainks, I also agree WE are the government.
I would love to see more national attention given to what the
"majority" of Americans think.
 
Funny, I remember years ago how so many wanted "welfare reform".
It is easy to say no to helping other people, but when you need some
form of assistance, the shoe is on the other foot.



< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/1/2009 8:00:50 PM >


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