RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 9:36:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


I enjoy the benefits of a global economy.  Why would I want to buy American?  Their highly touted work force is a thing of the past. Those Americans are not as educated as many countries that they compete with. They are fat, lazy and have an overall poor work ethic.  They tend to produce crap.  Thanks, but no, i'll continue to shop  abroad where my dollar is valued.


THEIR workforce?

Did someone send Chicago to Canada and forget to tell the rest of us?




rulemylife -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 9:46:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble


Likewise, there are plenty of jobs that cannot be outsourced.  Would you want your surgeon to be based in India?


Not necessary.  Hospitals just import Indian doctors who will work at 2/3 of what an American doctor will accept.

Just as many other businesses are doing.

There is another thread running about the banks that received bailout money importing foreign workers to decrease labor costs.





kazzaslave -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 9:51:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


I enjoy the benefits of a global economy.  Why would I want to buy American?  Their highly touted work force is a thing of the past. Those Americans are not as educated as many countries that they compete with. They are fat, lazy and have an overall poor work ethic.  They tend to produce crap.  Thanks, but no, i'll continue to shop  abroad where my dollar is valued.


THEIR workforce?

Did someone send Chicago to Canada and forget to tell the rest of us?


It was.....we sent it back, lol
 
kazza




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 9:55:17 AM)

domiguy,
I don't know where you get your information but American productivity is at an all-time high and far outpaces the rest of the world.
As for US-made products being of poor quality, it's not for lack of skills by the workers.  Quality Control is, and has always been, up to the management.  A product is only poorly made if the top-level people allow it to be.  There are plenty of high-quality products made here.  Mag-lite comes to mind. 

As for out-sourcing, a comment I read 10+ years ago still holds true now: When someone starts to outsource legal services, outsourcing will cease.

~Dave




LaTigresse -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 10:25:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Just what we need is to return to our failed isolationist policies of the past. The genie is out of the bottle and only the gullable or naive can suggest that there is a way to put it back. we live in a global economy, end of story.  Our economy will go through some changes and dips while the rest of the world catches up. it can't and shouldn't be avoided.

Many of the ills we face today are based upon the inequities that exist globally. it is hard to find suicide bombers and "extremists" when one has hope as well as a certain comfort within their lifestyle.

I enjoy the benefits of a global economy.  Why would I want to buy American?  Their highly touted work force is a thing of the past. Those Americans are not as educated as many countries that they compete with. They are fat, lazy and have an overall poor work ethic.  They tend to produce crap.  Thanks, but no, i'll continue to shop  abroad where my dollar is valued.


This post reflects part of a post I was formulating and will make an excellent jumping off point.

I am sick to death reading and listening to everyone blaming "them". If we are going to point fingers we had better be standing in front of a damned mirror. Start looking around our houses, and where items were manufactured and think about this sort of thing. Where was the dishes you ate off of today manufactured? The pans you cooked the food in? The packaging it came in, or the plastic ware it was kept in, while in the fridge? Where was the fridge, and all of it's parts made? The stove, the microwave, the coffee maker? The paper towels, silverware, glasses? The towels you used after your morning shower, all your toiletries, the clothes you put on after your shower, your shoes? All made in the USA by people making union wages with excellent health insurance, weeks of sick time and vacation pay?  I seriously doubt it because my house isn't that way, nor anyone I know, including some of the most socially concious and green Prius driving types.

Why is that? Because we want what we want. We know that if we get our socks and undies, our computer, our television for the best price, we can have that really cool 42" flat screen tv instead of  32" 2001 Sharp model from 2001 that still works okay but isn't nearly as cool as that plasma. The reality is that if that 42" plasma tv was made in Detroit by people making $45.00 an hour, that were getting all the whistle and bells benefits, that work for a company paying hundreds or maybe thousands of retirees their pensions and agreed upon whistles and bells.....we probably could not afford it. So, our materialism and greed draws us to the equally cool, made in China model....just because we really want it and dammit we deserve it!!!

However, when we go to work, we are worth a fortune! We want a nice big fat paycheck, regardless of what we are doing, the skill level and education required to do that job, the difficulty or responsibility. We justify our demands by comparing our paycheck with the greedy CEO's pay checks and bonuses, and think "by god we deserve a slice of the pie too!" So we form a union to bully the company into giving into our demands, regardless of how rediculous, then cloak those demands in words of "fairness, protecting the little guy, etc etc etc...)

These same companies get pressured by greedy stockholders to maintain double digit growth every year so they hire over priced, over educated putzes and pay them unbelievable sign up bonuses to come and do a job a trained monkey could do. Which means cutting employees when times get tough, closing the most expensive production facilities, perhaps a move to a rural area with a cheaper workforce, like Alabama instead of Chicago, or..........if all else fails, Mexico so they can pay less wages, benefits, and worry less about EPA, and all the other issues they had to deal with in operating a manufacturing facility in Chicago IL. Voila'a big cuts, profit margins maintained, yeahhhh over priced CEO, the shareholders are happy. All the squeaky wheels greased.

Now, those emloyees that just lost those $45.00 hour jobs. Well, they were living the life, not saving as much as they should have, foolishly believing that what they had would always last instead of looking long term big picture. We're gonna get a pension, right?!? They bought the biggest house their mortgage lender would allow, because all American deserve a nice house in the burbs yanno! And the SUV, well that was the cool in car in the burbs and they could justify it to themselves by pretending it was safer for mom to drive the kids to soccer in. Never mind we really couldn't afford the payments of a 2 or 3 year loan, GMAC will now let you take up to 10 years to pay for it! Not that you would keep a car for10 years to actually pay it off, why that would be totally uncool to drive a 10 year old car!!! We will worry about that in a couple years when we decide to trade it in on the next cool "it" car. Not to mention the boats, the motorcycles, and all the other cool "must have" burb toys to keep up with the neighbours.

All hard working people deserve a vacation. No money in savings? No problem, just dig out the Mastercard or Visa! Life is too short, gotta live right! We will worry about paying for it later. Now we have to get new clothes for the vacation, more Visa action of course.

And on and on it goes...........

We all think we can somehow have a piece of the Trump lifestyle, regardless of whether or not we can afford it. Nevermind no one, especially a factory worker, needs a $300.00 Louis Vitton handbag......it doesn't stop people that shouldn't have it from buying it. We've convinced ourselves we can, should, and do.

Now we are paying the price for having our heads in the sand, for our greed and materialism. No one wants to be the one to make the sacrifices, to do without. Somehow we assume that there is a magic fix that will not mean a change in OUR personal life.

Wrong.......




MistresseLotus -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 10:32:15 AM)

Forget the tax cuts.. give an incentive for the companies to bring the jobs BACK into the USA.




BeingChewsie -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 10:44:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

  As for out-sourcing, a comment I read 10+ years ago still holds true now: When someone starts to outsource legal services, outsourcing will cease.

~Dave



They are already doing that. Lawyers in India work for as little as $75 an hour which is a bargain for US firms.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 10:44:37 AM)

Lotus,
The gov already does something like that.  They give a $2,000 tax break/incentive for every new hire a company trains.  The plan was to help small manufactures train and keep skilled workers.  Unfortunately, it also applies to McDonald's.  They get that same $2,000 for the 5 minutes it takes to show a 16yo kid how to work the fry machine.

Best laid plans...

~Dave




MzMia -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 10:54:27 AM)

[sm=LMAO.gif]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

Wait, you mean there isn't some kind of magical awesomeness barrier around America that prevents us from having to compete with the rest of the world to do things well?

Holy fuck.  Stop the presses!

Seriously, knock it the fuck off, MzMia{you have made my day} make me knock it off. lol [sm=boxer.gif]
You don't like outsourcing?  Then raise the standard of living in other nations so that you don't have people living in such abject poverty that $3 a day in a factory represents a massive rise in their earnings power.  If you eliminate poverty of that degree, you eliminate the rationale for outsourcing.

Likewise, there are plenty of jobs that cannot be outsourced.  Would you want your surgeon to be based in India?  How about your auto mechanic?  Your plumber?  Maybe your tax collector?

If you keep getting fucked because of outsourcing, take the hint and get a different job; jobs that require a local presence can never be outsourced, and likewise, jobs that are predicated around superior skills in a particular area due to practice or education can never be eliminated without crushing product quality.  The bottom line is that Americans have to compete against the rest of the world instead of hide behind a wall of ignorance.

Get used to it.  It's not a factor of "free trade", it's a factor of most of the rest of the world no longer being in the pre-industrial era.




MzMia -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 11:34:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR

The problem with large corporate business these days is that they are no longer satisfied making a profit, for some perverted reason they all feel that they have to make maximum profit! In years gone by companies were happy to be profitable after expenses. They looked after their employees paid them a decent wage, and kept the business thriving. I hate to say it but unions are partly to blame for this problem as well (and I won't digress on the dynamics of why, cuz I think most of you already know why). I have said it before and I will say it again, Ross Perot was dead-on when he said "you hear that sucking sound?" in reference to all the jobs leaving the US when one of the first free trade agreements was being enacted.

With any luck the Obama administration will do as promised, and tax the snot out of companies who outsource, and reward those who keep there business within US borders!



Great post!
I agree that greed and maximum profit's are behind a lot of this.

I never heard that line from Ross Perot.....do "you hear that sucking sound?"
Many of us will hear and see it soon.
I agree that companies and businesses that stay in the US, should get maximum and I do mean
maximum rewards, benefits, and assistance.




came4U -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 12:15:22 PM)

quote:

In addition you have India with the largest middle class in the world developing people with the technical skills to manufacture product and perform services made possible by cheap telecommunications that have displaced Americans.


I'm not in any third world. Many companies outsource to Canada from the US.  I made a fine buck or two working for Time Warner/ Roadrunner making over $19/hr just because of what domiguy said:

quote:

Those Americans are not as educated as many countries that they compete with. They are fat, lazy and have an overall poor work ethic.  They tend to produce crap. 


that is exactly what the bosses tell us, that they hire Canadians because we are more productive, patient, polite and more educated. Their words not mine.  If not, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to have these worksites within the United States, a lot cheaper.  So it isn't he cheap labour or rent, those are probably tripled.

Thanks to that company for teaching me a few tricks of the trade I can now work as in independant and secure in knowing that there are always those that have no clue how to program, install and upgrade firewalls, clean computers of viruses and security in general.   Thanks to them (and people that purchase computers without knowing how to use them), I can buy my own shoes.  Lots n lots of shoes.




Real_Trouble -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 5:09:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble


Likewise, there are plenty of jobs that cannot be outsourced.  Would you want your surgeon to be based in India?


Not necessary.  Hospitals just import Indian doctors who will work at 2/3 of what an American doctor will accept.

Just as many other businesses are doing.

There is another thread running about the banks that received bailout money importing foreign workers to decrease labor costs.




That statement is factually incorrect.  (Ignoring the fact that, when it occurs, the person coming here usually only starts off at a lower wage and rapidly rises to parity thanks to cost of living in the US)

Given the current situation with H1B visas and the legal regulations around hiring in healthcare, paired with the fact that we actually have a pretty acute shortage of doctors (don't believe me?  You can make over $400k per year if you are willing to move to towns in the Midwest to become a GP because they can't find enough doctors - that wouldn't happen if there were enough doctors around), I'd be for importing anyone and everyone at any non-astronomical wage who wants to be a doctor in this country!  Yet H1Bs are literally gone on day one, and I believe our current application rate is a factor of 10 higher than the number of visas we issue.

I know of MDs from other countries (two personally, from India and Germany, respectively) who wanted to work in the US but were denied visas to work.  In one case, the job went unfilled (there was also no American to hire!), and in the other case, the hospital had to pay roughly twice as much money to an American.

We greatly restrict foreign skilled labor in this country (while, ironically, being unable to police foreign unskilled labor, but that's another story).  The bottom line is that we don't have enough doctors, and we discourage the best and brightest from other countries from coming here by refusing to give them jobs.  If that's not asinine, I don't know what is.

quote:

They are already doing that. Lawyers in India work for as little as $75 an hour which is a bargain for US firms.


Prediction:

When law firms realize what the actual cost of outsourcing to India is (in the form of inferior work leading to judgments against a firm, or legal liability issues resulting from screw-ups) in the form of both labor + value, they will cease outsourcing to India, in the same way that outsourcing customer service to India was a huge fad that is now being scaled back because the unintended additional feature of outsourcing customer service to India was outsourcing your customers to other firms that provided better customer service in any industry where customer service mattered.  The main people doing this now are either firms where customer service is not terribly relevant, or government sponsored monopolies, like phone and power.




Maya2001 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 6:24:34 PM)

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpposted/archive/2008/02/13/ontario-could-face-250-000-more-manufacturing-job-losses-quebec-100-000-td.aspx




popeye1250 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 6:51:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

Wait, you mean there isn't some kind of magical awesomeness barrier around America that prevents us from having to compete with the rest of the world to do things well?

Holy fuck.  Stop the presses!

Seriously, knock it the fuck off, MzMia.  You don't like outsourcing?  Then raise the standard of living in other nations so that you don't have people living in such abject poverty that $3 a day in a factory represents a massive rise in their earnings power.  If you eliminate poverty of that degree, you eliminate the rationale for outsourcing.

Likewise, there are plenty of jobs that cannot be outsourced.  Would you want your surgeon to be based in India?  How about your auto mechanic?  Your plumber?  Maybe your tax collector?

If you keep getting fucked because of outsourcing, take the hint and get a different job; jobs that require a local presence can never be outsourced, and likewise, jobs that are predicated around superior skills in a particular area due to practice or education can never be eliminated without crushing product quality.  The bottom line is that Americans have to compete against the rest of the world instead of hide behind a wall of ignorance.

Get used to it.  It's not a factor of "free trade", it's a factor of most of the rest of the world no longer being in the pre-industrial era.


Real Trouble, and just when have we EVER "competed" against foreign countries?
We give foreign aid to in excess of 130 foreign countries!
Last year the congress appropriated $36.8 Billion dollars for foreign aid!
We let them immigrate to the U.S., their people send billions of dollars back in "remittances", we have a govt agency called "the agency for international development" ostensably to "develop new markets" and all kinds of other things to "help" them and this has been going on for decades!
That's not *competing!*
If we were to *compete* against these countries in *pure capitalism* we could *pound them back right into the fucking Stone Age* within a year!
When have we *ever* competed against them?
Evidently I'm supposed to "care" about people in third world countries because U.S. owned businesses have "interests" there and want to spend my money (taxdollars) to "develop" those countries yet, they never seem to "develop" do they? Fifty fucking years of this bullshit and it never ends, does it?
Rule number one in Capitalism; "you don't help your competition, you fucking BURY them!"
When I went to "B" school way back when one of our proffessors said that in our very first class. He said "fucking" under his breath of course.
You're talking about global socialism.
We could and should pound the Central American countries into the dirt in six months. And not let Hanes, Jocky, and Fruit of the Loom back into the U.S.
I couldn't care less about any company that I don't own stock in.
Capitalism is winner take all not, "let's sit down and talk."

"Hey Jimmy, what are you going to do for a job this summer when school gets out?"
"I'm going to, "sell stocks!"




MzMia -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 7:08:30 PM)

ROFL as usual Popeye!
I love the way you express yourself.
[;)]




came4U -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/1/2009 7:47:58 PM)

Maya your article post only proves that a person should have more than one transferable skills.

I decided long ago not to box myself in by choosing one field of study in my lifetime.  I have several skills that may or may not come in handy.  I know of some auto-worker type of guys who are local (or not) that have worked for the big 3 for decades and have learned (by choice) to do nothing else.  The world changes, technology changes, they should have adapted to find various other skills also besides put bolt A into slot B.  The conversation alone after a day like that would be deafeningly dense.

My grandfather, a great mason, helped invent and built the beginnings of the currently used  robotics for GM and also created (and patented) the recent equiv. of disc brakes from his garage.   He had so many skills he was pretty well invaluable and incapable of not finding employment--somewhere.  The military used him for various of his abilities in England as a mechanical engineer and then he went on to civilian life to live in his garage for the most part building 'unbelievable crafts' as my mother would call them.  Back in the day GM gave him the equiv. of 2 homes (today's value, approx $480,000.00), more in valuable metal(s) to create and 6 truck loads of bits and bolts of metal that he can use for his experiments and inventions.  Being this was post-depression era, he had no quams in taking the money despite being left behind in the field because of being held off the assembly line to do his own research.

Outsourcing takes just that....taking people that wouldn't normally be seen as qualified to do a specific and distinct occupation/skill and teach them to provide a service that otherwise wouldn't be available to the corporation's expectation on site (and hopefully paying them a fair price to do so).

So, as my grandfather said claimed to have known long ago.....'have many skills, marketable skills, craft skills that never go out of fashion, wood, metal / liquids of all sorts.  Be as good with your hands as you are with your mind because when one occupation becomes obsolete you must be prepared to easily transform into another...even if it seems to belittle, which it never would if you keep your mindseye on the next step in manufacturing, economy and social necessities. Become a solid necessity within your boundaries'.

A reminder to everyone to have many options open, avoid being stereotyped into a single sheepminded occupation, to keep hobbies as a necessary and never let yourself become vulnerable to a culturally caused meltdown of any given living area of existence.  Be free to roam and fulfill to create and prosper in any climate and environment and do such with great skill. 

If not, you are a man without extremeties on a long march to being dragged about going nowhere.   




chezzy71 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/2/2009 2:53:56 AM)

The blame can be place squarely on the Board of Directors.The company i worked for was global with our division being bought up.The result was the CEO received an 8 million dollar golden parachute,a new SUV,and him and his wife receiving health benefits for life not including the 32 million in stock that also was part of the deal.When this nonsense stops(of course it never will)then maybe things will change.By the way..all those American companies that moved and gave jobs to underdeveloped countries and paying 1 dollar to 3 dollars an hour in wages???..Why are they charging the same price if not drastically more for their goods??Seems to me the greedy train is unstoppable.




JustDarkness -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/2/2009 3:00:23 AM)

quote:

paying 1 dollar to 3 dollars an hour in wages???..


In east europe a worker costs 80 euro's / month.
To get that work back will cost a lott of money...meaning more expensive products.
And sadly no one wants more expensive products.

quote:

Why are they charging the same price if not drastically more for their goods??


because you propably don't buy directly from them.Every one in the chain wants to secure their profit.
An othe rreason is that metal for example became expensive, because you can't change that price..you look for other ways to reduce costs...meaning..often..labour.
The costs of the end product stays the same...just the balance material/labour changed.




rulemylife -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/2/2009 7:39:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

That statement is factually incorrect.  (Ignoring the fact that, when it occurs, the person coming here usually only starts off at a lower wage and rapidly rises to parity thanks to cost of living in the US)




BusinessWeek Debate Room Beware the H-1B VisaAdmittedly, the H-1B visa program, supposed to benefit U.S. companies by ...... The consulting companies exploit the people by paying them as low as $50 per ...
www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2007/08/beware_the_h-1b.html - 215k

"The H-1B program has been corrupted by a large and growing share of firms that use it for cheap labor and to facilitate the outsourcing of jobs. Gaping loopholes make it very easy and legal to pay below-market wages. In fact, employers admitted to the Government Accountability Office, Congress’ watchdog agency, that they use the visas to hire less-expensive foreign workers. And examples of approved H-1B applications show how the program undercuts American workers. In 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor rubber-stamped HCL America’s bid to import 75 computer software engineers at $11.88 per hour."



YouTube - LOU DOBBS TONIGHT 04.05.07 - H1B Visa AbuseWatch as Indiana companies exploit the American H1B visa program and drive down wages of American IT workers.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh6OLUPSHyE - 52k



High Rate of H-1B Visa Fraud - BusinessWeekOct 8, 2008 ... A study finds that 13% of the visa petitions for US employers to bring in skilled foreign workers are fraudulent.www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm - 52k

"The H-1B visa program has become increasingly controversial in recent years as groups such as the Programmers Guild and WashTech, which represent U.S. tech workers, allege it is being abused, resulting in mistreatment of foreign workers, wage depression, and the displacement of U.S. workers...........................................................................
There is also evidence that workers on H-1B visas are being mistreated. In a pending case (BusinessWeek, 1/31/08), H-1B workers employed by Patni Computer Systems (PTI) allege they were underpaid.
Critics say such instances of abuse represent the tip of an iceberg of deeper problems with the visa program. Academics and U.S. tech worker advocates point out the requirement that even employers who abide by the law—for example by paying the required "prevailing wage"—are able to underpay workers."




jakelogan01 -> RE: Outsourcing Outrage Or Duh where did the jobs go? (2/2/2009 8:30:10 AM)

has anyone realized that the u.s. is the largest destination of outsourcing work in the world? stop outsourcing and we will suffer, not them




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