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Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 9:20:17 AM   
fungasm


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A question came up over Christmas which no one at the table could answer:

Is there some reason why someone who loves Dr. Bonner's Pure Peppermint Castile Soap couldn't use it for dish detergent?  What does detergent have or not have that makes it something you should buy?

Alison


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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 9:42:55 AM   
CalifChick


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If you'll look on the bottle, I believe it says you can use it to wash just about anything.  Personally, I only use it in the shower (and gawd, I love that stuff, and the religious propaganda on the bottle is an entertainment all on its own).  Being that it's pricy, I guess if you can afford it, there's no reason NOT to use it on dishes.

And I don't see anything in the ingredient list that precludes its use on dishes:  Water, Saponfied Organic Coconut Oil*, Saponified Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Glycerin, Organic Cannabis Sativa (Hemp) Seed Oil, Organic Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Mentha Arvensis Extract, Organic Mentha Peperita (Peppermint) Oil, Citric Acid, Tocopherol (* Certified Fair Trade by IMO)


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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 10:05:01 AM   
RedMagic1


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I've used it for both dish detergent and laundry detergent.  It works fine.

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 12:58:05 PM   
hejira92


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On camping trips, I've used it for everything- even to brush my teeth, so I can't imagine it wouldn't be fine for everyday dishes! Although, I recommend using a good conditioner if you use Dr. Bonner's as shampoo- it's a bit drying.
 
Also, about 30 years ago, someone spilled red wine on my mom's white denim jacket. I poured Dr. Bonner's on it. Mom screamed- the stain turned blue! But, after the wash cycle- all the wine was gone. I converted my mother that day.................

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:04:48 PM   
BRNaughtyAngel


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Here's a good article on the differences between soap and detergents.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/10009.html


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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:05:50 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm

A question came up over Christmas which no one at the table could answer:

Is there some reason why someone who loves Dr. Bonner's Pure Peppermint Castile Soap couldn't use it for dish detergent?  What does detergent have or not have that makes it something you should buy?

Alison



I love these types of questions - and have to answer them frequently in the course of my business as a natural soap & lotion maker!
 
Soap and Detergent serve the same purpose - they are Surficants, meaning they break the surface tension of an item, allowing the water to do it's job.  What the final product is - is actually determined by the Ingredients List.  Soap - true soap (don't get started on the use of the word "true" here - I mean True as defined by the FDA, which has regulatory authority, in regards to cleaning products specifically!) - is very strictly defined as the Precipitate of an Acid/Base reaction.  The Acids being specifically the Fatty Acids of either plants or animals; the Base specifically being Lye (Sodium Hydroxide for a Solid soap, or Potassium Hydroxide for a Liquid soap.)
 
Detergent - as opposed to Soap - specifically uses Petrochemical Deritatives as Surficants and Lathering Agents, rather than being a byproduct of natural chemical reaction.  In my professional - and frequently not so humble - opinion - petrolium derived detergents should be shunned for Any use.  They're cheap, they're easily found on the shelf of practically any grocery or dollar store, and even so the mark up on them is about 1000% when compared to the price of the ingredients.  They have to have Glycerine added for mosturizing because what little bit is produced in the course of making the chemicals is specifically Extracted to be sold as a seperate product at a huge profit.
 
Castile as a Soap Type is a specific.  Castile originally refered strictly to soaps produced using ONLY Olive oil as the fatty acid, and was named for the Castile region of Spain where it was first produced on a large scale.  Bonner's Castile is considered a Castile Type because it uses a very high percentage of Olive Oil (one of the reasons for it's high price) - although Olive is not the only oil used these days even by those of us who make Castiles and Castile Types.  Every once in a blue moon, I make a batch of Castile or Coconut/Castile (a 20/80 coconut oil/olive oil blend that lathers much better than pure castile) - but the price per bar tends to send people running away screaming - and the price per bar is based on the price of ingredients.  (My time per bar is part of it, but only adds abotu 17 cents per bar from start to finish.)
 
Natural soaps - whether it's something like Bonner's that you buy in a specialty store or order from someone like myself - or it's something You make Yourself at home - are better for you, better for the environment, better for your wallet (if you're making your own) and can be used for any of the things you would buy detergent for at the store.  The same soap - if properly formulated - can act as hand/body soap in the bath, laundry soap when grated up, and dish soap when rubbed on a spong for the dishes.  It can also be used on your hair (though I suggest a vinegar rinse first, to remove the chemical residue left behind by commercial shampoos and conditioners) and on your pets.
 
I've been Making soap for close to 20 years.  I've been selling it as a business effort for about 2 years, along with my lotions and other bath & body products.  The lotions and other various goodies are things that I learned to make long after I started making soap, because they use many of the same ingredients.  Hair conditioner, really, is simply a thin lotion which has had a bit of tinkering done to balance the pH - but any good natural lotion will work as well - and any hair conditioner can be used in a pinch as a body lotion for dry skin. 
 
Oh - the "Tocopherol" that's listed in the ingredients list on Bonner's is also something that you'd find on the ingredients list of most natural soaps and lotions - it's Vit. E, and you'll also see it frequently listed as "mixed tocopherols".   Glycerin is a natural byprodct content of soapmaking, so with it listed on the ingredients list - they added extra glycerin which had been extracted from other sources to give an "extra" moisturizing boost to the soap - which isn't really surprising to me, since Coconut Oil is the first oil listed - while it produces a great lather, even in relatively cold water, it's very drying and pretty much Needs the extra glycerin added to balance it out.

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:08:19 PM   
CalifChick


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If anyone is looking, it's actually "Dr. Bronners" (not Bonners).  Here is their site, although you can find their products in health food stores, sporting good stores (because they're considered environmentally safe, you'll often find them in the camping section), and some other types of stores (my grocery store used to carry them, but no longer).


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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:11:20 PM   
Aileen1968


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Target actually carries them.

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:11:33 PM   
hejira92


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I thought it was Bronner's, but I just followed the pack on this one......
 
hizgeorgiapeach- Thanks for the great information. I understand the chemistry, but knew nothing about soaps.

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 1:27:20 PM   
CalifChick


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Thanks for the tip, Aileen!  I'll have to check again next time I'm in Target.  I last checked there about two months ago, and they weren't carrying it (well, not the stores in my town, anyway).


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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 2:18:16 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92
hizgeorgiapeach- Thanks for the great information. I understand the chemistry, but knew nothing about soaps.


I've had to learn a lot more of the Chemistry portions of it over the past few years.  Especially once I decided to start thinking in terms of a Business, and started doing the necessary research on the FDA website concerning regulations on labeling, naming, etc.  The FDA gets Very persnikity about this particular subject, and regulations cover what sort of claims can and can't be made on the lable; what sorts of things in labling require the item being regulated as a Drug (any claims of health benefits - even those which have 1000+ years of background - require FDA Approval As a Drug, meaning they have to get paid, test it themselves, run clinical trials, etc.) ; what can and can't be called Soap (it has it's own specific catagory under the Cosmetics Labeling Acts of the FDA); when something has to be termed a "cleanser" or "detergent" or "skin bar" as opposed to a "Soap."  If you happen to look at the Packaging for any of the stuff normally carried in the stores - you'll see that it says something like "cleansing bar" or "mosturizing bar" - not Soap.
 
The primary difference in the ingredients list between my Lotions and my Soaps - is that I don't use Lye in the Lotions LOL.  I use the same oils - ranging from Olive and Coconut to Macadamia, Cherry Kernal, Peach Kernal, Grapeseed, Sweet Almond, Rice oil, Safflower, Sunflower, Palm and Palm Kernal oils, to Cocoa Butter, Shea Butter, Mango Butter, Illipe Butter, Kokum Butter, and Mohrah Butter.  Things like the mixed Tocopherols, a Vit B complex; Silk, Wheat, and Soy proteins, natural Collagen, Goat's Milk (from a couple of grass fed herds here locally, so it's always fresh when I get it); organic Honey from a supplier in my local area - those are addititives that I use in various amounts in both soaps and lotions.
 
Probably my favorites of what I make are my Oatmeal, Milk, and Honey - which uses locally grown, coarsely ground oatmeal; locally produced fresh goat's milk; and locally produced Organic Honey as the 3 main Additives in a base of Olive Oil, Cocoa Butter, Coconut Oil, and Palm Oil - and what I call my "Lady McBeth" (named due to a literary joke as I was starting the company lol) which is my most basic recipe and uses Coconut Oil, Crisco, and Palm Oil with Honey as the only additive.  I use Honey a lot because the sugars in the honey actually help significantly boost the lathering.  I've joked for a while that my business is 50% artistry, 50% mad scientist, because it takes a touch of both.  The scientist to come up with a well balanced formula that isn't to drying, and isn't lye heavy so it doesn't potentially cause the equivalant of chemical burns.  The artistry to decide what color to make a given batch, what scent to make it, which combination of those two would work well together (and actually appeal to other people as well lol) and to do things like make those neat marbled effects with multiple colors, or carve the bars so they don't simply look like big ugly blocks once they're cut into individual bars - and of course do things like come up with names, logo, sales gimics, lables, etc.!
 
Making  your own soap is Incredibly easy to learn.  Same with making your own natural, environmentally friendly, skin friendly lotions, or bath salts, or fizzing bath bombes, or even body powder and lip balms.  I even make my own Tattoo Balm, which I use as an all purpose body balm, and specifically as a healing promoting moisturizer when I get fresh ink.  (One of the Tat shops near home and I are working on a deal for me to make it in quantity for them to sell out of their shop - they're keen on the idea of a locally made tattoo balm for their customers.) 
 
For a batch of soap that will last my family an entire year - that's for all the people, all the pets, the dishes, and the laundry - I spend about $15 on ingredients - that's to make a single 20lb batch.  Cost per bar, when you Only count the ingredients, works out to about 23 cents per bar for me on a batch like that.  It'd be more for someone who doesn't buy ingredients in bulk, like I do - but even at a much higher ingredient cost due to buying small quantities, it ends up only being about 45 cents per bar.   Less than I would be paying for a single large container of laundry detergent, and forget the cost of dish detergent or body bars.  It takes me about 45 to 50 minutes of Actual Work - weighing and mixing lye solution, weighing other ingredients, melting oils, mixing the lye and oils, pouring it into one of my large box molds, cutting it into bars once it's finished setting up, grating up a couple of the finished bars for laundry use - to get it done.  But in that process, it's a matter of 20 minutes of work, 5 hours of waiting for everything to be at the Same Temperature, then 15 minutes of work, and waiting 17 to 24 hours for the batch to harden in the mold  (hardening time depends on whether I did or didn't use a stronger than average lye solution - more water = more time for it to harden), then 5 minutes of work cutting it into bars and putting those on my drying racks to finish processing and "cure out" (which is actually sitting time while excess water evaporates out of it) - 30 days of cure time wait, then 5 minutes to grate up the bars that are going into the laundry bucket, and trim the bars that are going to be used for the bath.  When I started out, the process took a lot longer, simply because I hadn't worked out streamlined methods - the longer I've done this, the more streamlined the process has become, from start to finish.    When I'm making a batch of soap to go in my sales stock, I add a couple of things to My price per bar - packaging per bar, a prorated portion of the cost of maintaining my business website, and a prorated portion per bar for my time at 1 hour per batch (I don't count my wait times, but I do count packaging time) - to cover the expenses of the business end.  Those are costs that *I have, as a business, that someone making soap strictly for their own use or for themselves and family/friends wouldn't have.   It still amazes me that so many people are willing to pay - and pay Well, mind you - for the soaps and lotions that people like myself make and sell.  I guess a lot of people just don't feel like they have the time to learn it, or want to take the time to wait for the soap to finishing it's curing/drying process, or want to deal with the potentially dangerous lye.  (FYI - it's only really Dangerous if you don't follow some very basic safety steps that are easy to learn and very quickly become second nature!  I wear safety glasses when mixing the lye, or mixing the lye and oils to avoid it potentially splashing into my eyes, and wear fairly heavy rubber gloves to avoid it splashing on my skin and possibly causing a chemical burn prior to the saponification process getting going good.)

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 2:47:51 PM   
Aileen1968


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Yeah...I was quite surprised that the target by me had that line along with several other organic/all natural lines of facial cleansers, etc.  And all much cheaper than I use to pay at the health food store by me.  I'm to the point that anything that comes into contact with my body only contains ingrediants that are readable (i.e. not long man made chemical names), all natural and preferably organic.  Except for Coco Chanel...can't seem to give that one up.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 2:54:52 PM   
CatdeMedici


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It isn't known to sanitize the germs on dishes (which come from inside us not outside) and it doesn't rinse clean, potentially causing the runs.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 3:08:12 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

It isn't known to sanitize the germs on dishes (which come from inside us not outside) and it doesn't rinse clean, potentially causing the runs.


Cat, using sufficiently hot water will reduce the germ risk.  There are numerous debates that I can think of (but which I don't have links to, unfortunately, since some of them are on various professional newsgroups that I'm on for the small/indi cosmetics industry) as to whether added germicidal ingredients - antibacterials, specific antifungals, etc - are a good thing or a bad thing.
 
Our tendency to over treat with things like antibacterials - and our paranoia about the least bit of germs - is what has led us to having so many (previously Non Existant) strains of Resistant bacteria.  I'm not certain of your age group - close to my own, I think - 40s? - but we grew up with Out antibacterial everything, and we weren't coming down constantly with bacterial infections.  And we certainly didn't have a plethora of medicine resistant strains of common Harmful bacteria - nothing like flesh eatting, antibacterial resistant staph, for instance.  There are several studies over the past 5 or 6 years that have shown that just Normal handwashing - with regular old non-antibacterial soap - goes just as far in reducing the risk of catching things like common colds and flu than using the strongest antibacterial on the open Public market.  (I say public market to specifically differentiate it from what is available to Hospitals - which are much stronger than what's available on the grocery store shelves!)
 
As far as residue potentially being left behind to cause a diarheal responce - that can be solved both with sufficiently hot water and sufficient time spent rinsing dishes.  Either of those two things not done well enough even with a petrochem based detergent is going to cause the same problem - residue and subsequent runs.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 4:17:01 PM   
hejira92


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 HGP- you've got mail!

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 5:04:36 PM   
UncleNasty


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hgp,

I think that's more than I ever wanted to know. I'm glad someone keeps up with the info, so I don't have to.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 6:04:16 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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LMAO - not sure whether to take that as a professional compliment or as a cutdown, UN!  I've been told I tend to go into "lecture mode" when I get on certain subjects - especially anything having to do with my work.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 7:49:47 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Yeah, it doesn't take much time to make one's own soap. I have a magnetic stirrer/hotplate for smaller batches and a stick blender for larger ones. I have 2 5-gallon pails of coconut oil and palm oil, plus I use hemp seed oil (man, that stuff is fantastic on salads, and the most healthy oil of all...hooray for cannabis!  ), glycerine, Shea butter, cocoa butter, olive oil, jojoba, aloe vera, and essential oils. I keep a lab notebook wherein I write down all my experiments.

It's fun and easy, and I've sold enough to pay for my materiels. My favorite so far is what I call "Tangerine Dream".

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 7:51:47 PM   
GreedyTop


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I've been hoarding the last bar of the patchouli you gave me, Hippie...LOL

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 9:26:09 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I've been hoarding the last bar of the patchouli you gave me, Hippie...LOL

Well, I can always make more, yanno.

Re: HGP's cautions about working with strong (in the reactive sense) bases; good advice. Me, I'm arrogant due to working in labs for, oh, almost 12 years with all kinds of funky stuff. You should get a nose full of bromine gas some time, or spill a little hydrofluoric acid on ya.

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