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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 10:40:19 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Re: HGP's cautions about working with strong (in the reactive sense) bases; good advice. Me, I'm arrogant due to working in labs for, oh, almost 12 years with all kinds of funky stuff. You should get a nose full of bromine gas some time, or spill a little hydrofluoric acid on ya.


NO THANKS!!!!!  I've had Just enough semi-strong lye solution splash on my hands at various times (and once on my cheek just below where the edge of my safety goggles sat) for me to know with absolute assurance that I do NOT want to deal with any seriously strong reactives like that LOL.  Depending on how quickly I want a batch of soap to get to full trace, set up in the mold, and finish curing out - my lye solution typically runs between 27% and 35% - beyond that, and it's getting stronger than I care to trust myself with, simply because I know what a klutz I tend to be.  A 30% solution was sufficient to leave a lil burn scar on my wrist, where the glove had rolled up a bit - and I managed to neutralize and flush it quickly.  It's faded away after 12 years, but my memory hasn't deteriorated to the point where I don't remember just how nasty it felt.

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Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/26/2008 11:59:10 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Re: HGP's cautions about working with strong (in the reactive sense) bases; good advice. Me, I'm arrogant due to working in labs for, oh, almost 12 years with all kinds of funky stuff. You should get a nose full of bromine gas some time, or spill a little hydrofluoric acid on ya.


NO THANKS!!!!!  I've had Just enough semi-strong lye solution splash on my hands at various times (and once on my cheek just below where the edge of my safety goggles sat) for me to know with absolute assurance that I do NOT want to deal with any seriously strong reactives like that LOL.  Depending on how quickly I want a batch of soap to get to full trace, set up in the mold, and finish curing out - my lye solution typically runs between 27% and 35% - beyond that, and it's getting stronger than I care to trust myself with, simply because I know what a klutz I tend to be.  A 30% solution was sufficient to leave a lil burn scar on my wrist, where the glove had rolled up a bit - and I managed to neutralize and flush it quickly.  It's faded away after 12 years, but my memory hasn't deteriorated to the point where I don't remember just how nasty it felt.
I'd have to look at my notes, but I recall going to about 35% NaOH but then I supefat it. I end up (if my calculations are correct) with about 5% excess fat.

I always have a jug of cheap vinegar on hand just in case. I also wipe down my work area with vinegar afterwards just in case I have left some residual NaOH there. If you've ever wondered why NaOH slution feels slippery, it's because it saponifies the oils on your skin.

Reduction in surface tension is only part of the story.

Diversion: A very good friend called me tonight. I have been lax in paying my bills, and just got around to paying my phone bill today. He was worried about me, and did some web searches. He eventually found something I'd posted on Shroomery.org, about Molality or something like that. He immediately knew it was me, posting shit about chemistry again.

So I'll restrain myself from giving a Chemistry lecture.  (part of my work at Shell's Enhanced Recovery Research Department involved using surfactants in a drive to push residual oil for tertiary recovery. We field-tested it, and it works.)  

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/27/2008 12:50:50 AM   
TNstepsout


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I can't answer the original question, but it looks like that's been covered. I just wanted to add how much I love this stuff. It is a bit pricey, but for a shower soap it lasts a really long time. I think the big bottle I have right now is a little under half and I've been using it for at least three months.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/27/2008 1:18:13 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I can't answer the original question, but it looks like that's been covered. I just wanted to add how much I love this stuff. It is a bit pricey, but for a shower soap it lasts a really long time. I think the big bottle I have right now is a little under half and I've been using it for at least three months.

It lasts forever, doesn't it? Just keep putting a little water in it. Dr. Bronner's, I mean. I love reading their labels.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Dr. Bronner's and Detergent - 12/27/2008 7:02:55 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
It still amazes me that so many people are willing to pay - and pay Well, mind you - for the soaps and lotions that people like myself make and sell.  I guess a lot of people just don't feel like they have the time to learn it, or want to take the time to wait for the soap to finishing it's curing/drying process, or want to deal with the potentially dangerous lye. 


I taught a soapmaking class for community ed some years ago.  The class was always full, people seemed to enjoy it, but I don't think many of them took it up and started making their own soap.  If you don't live in a big city (we don't) it can be hard to find all of the supplies and it's expensive to buy small quantities of some of this stuff online.  Once soapmaking started picking up as a hobby, there was enough demand that the local natural food store started carrying coconut and palm oil with their bulk stuff, but for a while you could only find coconut oil in 16 oz jars for $$ and couldn't find palm at all.  Now lye is getting hard to find, because the meth cookers use it.  I used to be able to get it at any grocery store, but they've pulled it from the shelves.  I can still get it at the farm store, but I don't know how long that's going to last.  It's available online, but it's much more expensive that way. 

I'm not surpised that folks are willing to pay more for hand-made soaps.  They are exponentially better than store soap.  I am surprised at the prices I've seen on some handmade soaps.  They're more a boutique gift item than they are a cleaning supply.  The novelty of making soap has kind of worn off for me, but I still make it a couple times a year because I won't use store soap and I'm too cheap to pay the boutique prices.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/27/2008 7:37:35 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I always have a jug of cheap vinegar on hand just in case. I also wipe down my work area with vinegar afterwards just in case I have left some residual NaOH there. If you've ever wondered why NaOH slution feels slippery, it's because it saponifies the oils on your skin.


LOL I go through so much vinegar that I buy in several gallons at a time, Hippie.  My friends are always a bit confused by the fact that - with anywhere from 2 to 7 batchs of soap on the racks curing, and literelly Dozens of various bottles of scenting oil around, my shop Always reeks of vinegar.  My equipment gets washed down in a 50% vinegar solution after each batch, and the countertop gets a thorough wipe down with the same solution - just to make sure that any stray lye flakes aren't still sitting around.  You'd think after having it explained to them a few times, they'd get over their suprise at the constant smell of vinegar in there.
 
I superfat between 3 and 6% on my solid soaps, depending on the recipe and the specific oils I'm using.  I only use a 1% superfat when I'm doing liquid soaps to avoid the excess fats clouding up the final liquid, or when I'm doing a batch that is Strictly going to be laundry soap and not used as bar soap at all.  I've got a couple of specific programs these days that I use to check my recipes prior to using them - saves time on the calculations, simply because I hate having to look up the math, and then wonder if my frequently piss poor skill with numbers has caused me to screwed the pooch and transpose something.  I also keep hard copy of all my really Good recipes, for later reference off the computer, and a notebook where I tend to jot down things like what the temp and humidity was on the day I started a specific batch and how long it took to come to trace, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL MmeGigs
Now lye is getting hard to find, because the meth cookers use it.  I used to be able to get it at any grocery store, but they've pulled it from the shelves.  I can still get it at the farm store, but I don't know how long that's going to last.  It's available online, but it's much more expensive that way.


I hear ya on that one, Gigs.  Have you considered looking at Lowes and Home Depot for it?  You'll still only be able to buy small amounts, and have to "sign" for it so that it's on record that you bought it and where you live (like you do with things like antihistamines at the drug store because of the damn meth cookers) - but I have found it there in a pinch.  For myself I'm lucky in that regard.  Living where I do, one of the major chemical manufactuerers that Supplies lye to Other legit companies is only about a 10 minute drive from home.  I show up there with my sales tax information from the state (again, to prove I'm a legit business - not a meth cooker) and buy it in 55gal drums of either Flake or Microbead.  Though I pretty much have to call them 3 days ahead of time in order to get the Microbead because it flies off their shelves (so to speak) much more quickly than the standard old flake.  It's easy to see WHY, after having used both.  The microbead disolves much more rapidly, and evenly, and there's little chance of having undisolved left behind in the lye solution mixing container afterward, like there is with flake.
 
What I acutally have more problems finding is KOH for making Liquid soaps.  I don't do nearly enough liquid soap in a given year to buy my KOH in the same sort of bulk that I do my NaOH - and the primary manufacturer here in town doesn't sell it in containers smaller than those dang 55gal drums.  Which means I end up having to order my KOH from someplace out of state - have it shipped back in - wait for it, pay the extra $25 dollar hazardous materials shipping fee, only choose ground shipping via UPS or FedEx since USPS won't take the package at all, etc.  (I don't sell a line of liquid soap at this point - I haven't managed to really get the end result up to the standard that I expect of myself, or of a product that I'm going to Use on myself.  If I won't use it myself, I won't offer it to someone else, either for free or at a profit.)
 
Novelty wore off a Long time ago - but somehow I still manage to find a passion for the Creative Process, which helps maintain my interest in things.  It's the fact that other people Are willing to pay boutique prices that keeps me from throwing up my hands and closing the business.  When there are sales, they're good - when there aren't, I ask myself what I was thinking in the first place, and why I haven't simply gone back to strictly hobbiest status.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/28/2008 12:39:35 AM   
moonvine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach


Our tendency to over treat with things like antibacterials - and our paranoia about the least bit of germs - is what has led us to having so many (previously Non Existant) strains of Resistant bacteria.  I'm not certain of your age group - close to my own, I think - 40s? - but we grew up with Out antibacterial everything, and we weren't coming down constantly with bacterial infections.  And we certainly didn't have a plethora of medicine resistant strains of common Harmful bacteria - nothing like flesh eatting, antibacterial resistant staph, for instance.  There are several studies over the past 5 or 6 years that have shown that just Normal handwashing - with regular old non-antibacterial soap - goes just as far in reducing the risk of catching things like common colds and flu than using the strongest antibacterial on the open Public market.  (I say public market to specifically differentiate it from what is available to Hospitals - which are much stronger than what's available on the grocery store shelves!)
 



I go out of my way to find non-antibacterial soap and dish detergent - it actually isnt' always easy to find -gah.

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/28/2008 5:39:59 PM   
Vendaval


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Peach,
 
Do you have a Web-site where we could find your products to purchase on the Net?  Or do health-food stores carry your products?

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/28/2008 7:35:30 PM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
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I maintain a business website.  It's rough, but website design and maintainence is NOT my forte by any stretch of the imagination!  (I had a choice of investing in professional website design help, or investing in equipment and supplies - I chose the later.  Eventually I'll have enough spare $$ laying around that isn't already earmarked for 15 other things, to have it professionally redone.)
 
The addy is http://www.essential-scentsations.com .  There is a link there to the estore itself, which is actually done as a subdomain of the primary site.  I've also got a partial/basic scent list, an FAQ page (which desperately needs to be updated lol) photos of some of the stuff I carry, contact info via my business mail - all the usual stuff.  I keep telling myself I should add a link to the site in my sig line, and never quite get around to getting it done.



< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 12/28/2008 7:41:07 PM >


_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/28/2008 9:03:41 PM   
Vendaval


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Yes, it would be great if that link was right there in your sig line. 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/28/2008 10:52:40 PM   
OneMoreWaste


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Joined: 8/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach
quote:

ORIGINAL MmeGigs
Now lye is getting hard to find, because the meth cookers use it.  I used to be able to get it at any grocery store, but they've pulled it from the shelves.  I can still get it at the farm store, but I don't know how long that's going to last.  It's available online, but it's much more expensive that way.


I hear ya on that one, Gigs.  Have you considered looking at Lowes and Home Depot for it?  You'll still only be able to buy small amounts, and have to "sign" for it so that it's on record that you bought it and where you live (like you do with things like antihistamines at the drug store because of the damn meth cookers) - but I have found it there in a pinch.  For myself I'm lucky in that regard.  Living where I do, one of the major chemical manufactuerers that Supplies lye to Other legit companies is only about a 10 minute drive from home.  I show up there with my sales tax information from the state (again, to prove I'm a legit business - not a meth cooker) and buy it in 55gal drums of either Flake or Microbead.  Though I pretty much have to call them 3 days ahead of time in order to get the Microbead because it flies off their shelves (so to speak) much more quickly than the standard old flake.  It's easy to see WHY, after having used both.  The microbead disolves much more rapidly, and evenly, and there's little chance of having undisolved left behind in the lye solution mixing container afterward, like there is with flake.


That was the first thing I wondered about when I read your original post on soap-making... I can't even get a friggin' bottle of lye to clean my drains nowadays.

But of course, I feel *ever* so much safer for it....


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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/29/2008 12:04:42 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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Waste, one of the problems that you're having with the "lye" that's now Approved to be sold in grocery stores is that there is almost no Lye in it - and what there is, is diluted/contaminated with a couple of specific aluminum compounds.  Soapmakers can't use anything except pure NaOH - using the stuff that has the aluminum compounds in it ruins the batch and makes it that much garbage.  There are a lot of caustics out there in the world - but only a few of them that are usable for this specific purpose if we want the finished product usable by humans.
 
A lot of us used to use Red Devil when it was still available.  It was cheap, it was pure, it was high quality.
 
Then the methheads started buying it in quantity, it got banned/pulled from the shelves, and those of us with Legitimate uses (whether soaping or unclogging our drains without having to call a professional plumber!) were simply told to suck it up and find some other method.  For drain cleaner - other methods exist that can't be used to cook meth - they aren't as Effective, but they Exist.  For soapmaking - it means paying through the nose, making certain we stock up when we can, having shipping difficulties with our supplies, and constantly having to wonder if our door is going to be kicked in by the DEA because they figure if we're buying lye in quantity we Must be doing something illegal.

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 12/29/2008 12:06:10 AM >


_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/29/2008 7:55:59 AM   
LumusandtheLady


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I am so glad to see other soap makers here. Rhi, I loved your posts and agree. I used to make soaps, bath salts and skin care products as an herbalist in Idaho. I had a fully stocked workshop that was always a joy to work in. I miss it but eventually I'll have the room here....  

Rain


_____________________________

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~Rain - newest member of the Clan Scarlett O'Hair-a's~

You are a fluke of the universe...



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RE: Dr. Bonner's and Detergent - 12/29/2008 8:39:17 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


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Rain - prior to being a Business, I did all of my Hobby soap/lotion making out of the kitchen.  It was all small batchs at that point - never more than about 10lbs total for soap, or 48oz of lotion - so it was managable in the kitchen.  Even after deciding to turn the hobby into a business, it stayed that way for a while - right up until the point where I managed to complete the makeover project on one of the spare bedrooms.  Trust me - living in a 4 bdroom house by myself was great.  One bedroom for me.... one for the workshop, one for the office, one for my art studio.  When I moved dad back in here a month ago, I consolidated the studio and office so the studio room could be switched back to a bedroom for him.  When dad dies, that room will probably go back to being an art studio - but it'll likely also serve duel purpose as a guest room for company.  That's assuming I don't sell the house - which will depend on the housing market and a lot of other things - since this place is already completely paid off.  If I move, I'm going to have to base purchasing a new place as much on whether there's an appropriate space to convert into my workshop again - though most of my workshop can be easily dismantled and moved with me, I'll have to have someplace to put it.  I would probably be locked up in a padded cell by now, straightjacket included, banging my head in futility against the walls, if I didn't have my workshop to escape into on a regular basis.

edited to add : (Now I'm having the odd thought of hosting a soapers' exchange for those here on CM - much like we frequently have on a couple of the soapers' lists that I'm on LMAO)

< Message edited by hizgeorgiapeach -- 12/29/2008 8:40:38 AM >


_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

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