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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 1:54:03 PM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But it won't freeze ! What I am wondering is how long can I expect it to stay good ? Since it didn't freeze I guess I shouldn't worry about freezer burn, but it's still the same conditions so I think I'll bag it anyway.



You're OK, bro. Doesn't need to solidify in order to "freeze."

Think about for a second. The point of freezing food is to prevent the food from rotting or becoming infested with bacteria, right?

OK, why does that work? Because at temperatures of around 0 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can not propagate, and the chemical process of decay is slowed down to almost nil. It doesn't matter whether the substance you're trying to preserve is still in a liquid state or not. If the temperature in your freezer is at or around 0 degrees, then the sauce is going to be at that temperature too. And if the sauce packets are at around 0 degrees, bacteria can not propagate, the sauce can not rot, and the food is still being preserved. Your sauce is still good. Enjoy it!


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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:01:04 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Huh. That never occurred to me.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:01:11 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		A food saver is an excellent investment. With the stuffed chicken you could vacuum seal a bag with stuffed chicken breast, freeze it and then when your ready to have it put the bag in boiling water turn off the heat and leave it in the water for 5 to 10mins and it will be perfect. No drying out from the microwave.

We do this with all the left overs we either made too much of or just don't want after several meals. I try to package them in one or two serving packages label it rather than try to remember what it is after it's frozen and it's great to pull out on a busy or late night when  you don't feel like cooking.

BTW I'd love your stuffed chicken recipe. Sounds awesome!

scarlet


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see my profile masterkspet

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:02:06 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But it won't freeze ! What I am wondering is how long can I expect it to stay good ? Since it didn't freeze I guess I shouldn't worry about freezer burn, but it's still the same conditions so I think I'll bag it anyway.



You're OK, bro. Doesn't need to solidify in order to "freeze."

Think about for a second. The point of freezing food is to prevent the food from rotting or becoming infested with bacteria, right?

OK, why does that work? Because at temperatures of around 0 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can not propagate, and the chemical process of decay is slowed down to almost nil. It doesn't matter whether the substance you're trying to preserve is still in a liquid state or not. If the temperature in your freezer is at or around 0 degrees, then the sauce is going to be at that temperature too. And if the sauce packets are at around 0 degrees, bacteria can not propagate, the sauce can not rot, and the food is still being preserved. Your sauce is still good. Enjoy it!

I dunno, man. I'd add some bleach, just in case.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:02:38 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks mistoferin I should have read the thread before posting.

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"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:13:55 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Huh. That never occurred to me.
Antifreeze works on the same principle, the Freezing Point depression of a *dilute* solution based on the mole fraction of the solute, and the proportionality constant K of the solvent, such that

delta T approx.= K(n-solute/n-solvent); n is molality.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 12/11/2008 2:15:21 PM >

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 2:16:25 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Freezer burn is caused by loss of moisture. That's why thicker ziploc bags reduce freezer burn. Less water wicks out through the thicker plastic.

To prove it to your self put two identical items in the freezer, 1 in a regular ziploc and 1 in a thicker freezer bag. Weigh both using a good scale. Take them both out in a month and weigh them again. The regular bag will have lost more weight and be more freezer burned.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 5:44:03 PM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But it won't freeze ! What I am wondering is how long can I expect it to stay good ? Since it didn't freeze I guess I shouldn't worry about freezer burn, but it's still the same conditions so I think I'll bag it anyway.



You're OK, bro. Doesn't need to solidify in order to "freeze."

Think about for a second. The point of freezing food is to prevent the food from rotting or becoming infested with bacteria, right?

OK, why does that work? Because at temperatures of around 0 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can not propagate, and the chemical process of decay is slowed down to almost nil. It doesn't matter whether the substance you're trying to preserve is still in a liquid state or not. If the temperature in your freezer is at or around 0 degrees, then the sauce is going to be at that temperature too. And if the sauce packets are at around 0 degrees, bacteria can not propagate, the sauce can not rot, and the food is still being preserved. Your sauce is still good. Enjoy it!

I dunno, man. I'd add some bleach, just in case.



Hmmm.... I think I'm finally gaining some insight into why you're no longer in  the restuarant business... 


_____________________________

Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 5:48:05 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But it won't freeze ! What I am wondering is how long can I expect it to stay good ? Since it didn't freeze I guess I shouldn't worry about freezer burn, but it's still the same conditions so I think I'll bag it anyway.



You're OK, bro. Doesn't need to solidify in order to "freeze."

Think about for a second. The point of freezing food is to prevent the food from rotting or becoming infested with bacteria, right?

OK, why does that work? Because at temperatures of around 0 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can not propagate, and the chemical process of decay is slowed down to almost nil. It doesn't matter whether the substance you're trying to preserve is still in a liquid state or not. If the temperature in your freezer is at or around 0 degrees, then the sauce is going to be at that temperature too. And if the sauce packets are at around 0 degrees, bacteria can not propagate, the sauce can not rot, and the food is still being preserved. Your sauce is still good. Enjoy it!

I dunno, man. I'd add some bleach, just in case.



Hmmm.... I think I'm finally gaining some insight into why you're no longer in  the restuarant business... 

Hey, none of them died.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 9:14:17 PM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		I also store and cook previously frozen (thoroughly cooked) foods in a sturdy freezer baggy.  Never, ever refreeze raw meat or partially cooked foods. 

I agree, even if your food has not formed a totally solid block, as long as the thermostat on the inside of the freezer is below zero (on a constant basis or it will get freezer burn).  Freezer burn occurs with any slight thawing and re-icing of inner and surface water on any food.  If it turns 'whiteish' or if you can still 'smell' the food when frozen, it has been compromised.

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 10:02:45 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I am going to have to deal with house's position first. This because I have frozen things in seemingly airtight vessels and that is not the perfect solution. For example take a nice meatball for example, put it in a mayonaise jar and freeze it. After time, it will not come out the same.

I had a slightly different theory, but that may be dashed. that everything is permeable to some extent and whenever the compressor and fan run in a freezer it is dehumidifying the air in there.

Maybe it is simply the change in ambient air temperature that does it, that would explain a few things.

It is possible we are missing something here though.

One thing, even without being frost free, a freezer cycles. It does it all the time except for certain units which would have to be a regulated "source" of cooling. One way would be a gas absorption type of refrigeration system with a throttling range controlled flame, not just on off, but varied continuously according to load. Another possibility would be a Peltier based purely electronic system which could be controlled variably as well. Even with perfect design of either though, eventually you have to open the door.

Something to think about anyway.

T

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/11/2008 11:39:18 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am going to have to deal with house's position first. This because I have frozen things in seemingly airtight vessels and that is not the perfect solution. For example take a nice meatball for example, put it in a mayonaise jar and freeze it. After time, it will not come out the same.

I had a slightly different theory, but that may be dashed. that everything is permeable to some extent and whenever the compressor and fan run in a freezer it is dehumidifying the air in there.

Maybe it is simply the change in ambient air temperature that does it, that would explain a few things.

It is possible we are missing something here though.

One thing, even without being frost free, a freezer cycles. It does it all the time except for certain units which would have to be a regulated "source" of cooling. One way would be a gas absorption type of refrigeration system with a throttling range controlled flame, not just on off, but varied continuously according to load. Another possibility would be a Peltier based purely electronic system which could be controlled variably as well. Even with perfect design of either though, eventually you have to open the door.

Something to think about anyway.

T
You are correct; most everything is permeable to some extent. Permeability is the result of many factors, including lattice structure, dipole interactions, hydrogen bonding, electronegativity, pressure differential, and London forces (I'm sure I forgot something). Polymers vary in permeability depending on their macromolecular arrangements.

Well, polymer chemistry is a field unto itself. 

OK, molecular motion stops at 0 Kelvin (-273.15C ). Freezing point of pure water @  atmosphere is 0C, 273K, 32F. Chemical reactions are still occuring at freezer temps, they are just very slow. That's why freezing instructions give you a time frame for storage. Bacteria tend not to breed, though.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 9:24:56 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		From an education standpoint, that is a very good point HK. Alot of people find it hard to fathom for example, why you can suffocate on a garbage bag yet if you fill it with water it will ooze out.

Now they market bags for storage of fruits and vegetables in the refrigerator claiming that they will last longer. The premeability is controlled, it lets out just enough moisture to prevent rot. (or whatever)

Fancy that, they now market a plastic that has the "advantage" of being not quite airtight. Seems to me one would get similar results using paper bags.

This would be quite useless in a freezer, but nobody said this thread is only about freezing things.

Perhaps interesting - I have found that if you just leave a head of lettuce unwrapped in the refrigerator it lasts longer. Also a hearty bread, which I like, you know the kind that comes from a bakery, and I don't mean a pastry shop, if it comes in a paper bag leave it in the paper bag.

Also what may be of interest to those who grow their own herbs, a friends olady knows how to freeze fresh herbs. It might come in handy if you want fresh well after you have harvested and are waiting for the next yield. Wet paper towels. Put your fresh herbs between wet paper towels and freeze. Just thaw and use anytime. Comes out pretty much how it was when you put it in, or at least close enough.

She is from the south, really. She also has some interesting things to say about planting a garden, to plant certain things right in between certain things. More efficient use of the land as the different plants need different minerals. But that is a different subject. Perhaps I'll get a chance to talk to her in depth about it and then we can tear that apart, the spring would be a good time.

Back to the freezer burn issue. There has to be another factor. It seems like it's the atmosphere itself somehow. If you wrap something, and all the surfaces of it are touching some (at least relatively) airtight material, it is alot less susceptable to freezer burn.

This brings me back to the fact that your furnace does not really decrease the humidity of the air in your house directly. It does it indirectly, it's that as it heats the air it expands, and when the moisture content is not increased, that will naturally result in a lower relative humidity reading. (I could be wrong there if a correction factor is involved) At any rate many systems are sealed, so what else would account for that phenomenon ?

For example you freeze a couple stuffed peppers and when you use them, there are ice crystals on top, on top where the atmosphere was. It's there, you sealed it there when you put the lid on in the first place.

In the instace of canning, the idea is to have the absolute minimum of air in there. Sometimes wax was used. Maybe our friend the atmosphere is our enemy as well.

In other words nature intended us to eat fresh foods, but then nature made it get cold and snow. Just another condradiction of life. Should be used to it by now.

T

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 12:01:10 PM   
Aszhrae


Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline 		What girl would suggest for freezing something that will not freeze. If it is a small item and you are worried about freezer burn, would you believe taking the said item, placing it one sealed bag (making sure it is absolutely sealed and can do this, by simple placing it in cold water and checking for escaping bubbles). Once sealed, place it within a larger bag and fill with water and then place it in the freezer.
Girl has found that this works with meat girl had aged or cleaned. the water acts as a barrier to freezer burn. Items usually keep for about 2-3 months.
In some restaurants that girl had worked in when younger, used to seal items in small sealed bags and place them in a bucket, then fill bucket with cold water and place in the walk in cooler. Buckets were dated so that we were sure never to take from a fresh bucket. Used this method to keep certain types of pastries since freezing would damage the pastry and sauces within would not lose their flavor.
Does that help?

By the way, you may want to learn how to do canning. It's quite easy. Girl listened to great aunt when younger when she was teaching the girls, family hearth wisdom. Preventing spoilage is one of those shared wisdoms. My aunt remembered having a freezer box.

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 1:29:36 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Ild like to learn to dehydrate food.    it then could last for up to 30 years.    one thing tho- is on some of the predone stuff- it has highfruitose corn syrup in it.  Not somehing good for the weight on the person.  :-)

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RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 1:32:52 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		this is going to sound ....well, not very suburbia.   With this cold weather it will work.  I toss out potato peals onto the garden.  Coffee grounds and orange peals.  This will get the soil ready for a good planting season in the summer.  :-)

during 100 degree days...  the above isnt a good idea.   the key is to not put meat tho on the soil.   it will draw rats.    

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 6:11:44 PM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:



ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluepanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But it won't freeze ! What I am wondering is how long can I expect it to stay good ? Since it didn't freeze I guess I shouldn't worry about freezer burn, but it's still the same conditions so I think I'll bag it anyway.



You're OK, bro. Doesn't need to solidify in order to "freeze."

Think about for a second. The point of freezing food is to prevent the food from rotting or becoming infested with bacteria, right?

OK, why does that work? Because at temperatures of around 0 degrees Fahrenheit, bacteria can not propagate, and the chemical process of decay is slowed down to almost nil. It doesn't matter whether the substance you're trying to preserve is still in a liquid state or not. If the temperature in your freezer is at or around 0 degrees, then the sauce is going to be at that temperature too. And if the sauce packets are at around 0 degrees, bacteria can not propagate, the sauce can not rot, and the food is still being preserved. Your sauce is still good. Enjoy it!

I dunno, man. I'd add some bleach, just in case.



Hmmm.... I think I'm finally gaining some insight into why you're no longer in  the restuarant business... 

Hey, none of them died.


Then you made them  stronger; nein? They are in your debt.

BTW, wassup with that boisterous alien? Where'd ya get him? Can I use him every now and then myself?


_____________________________

Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 6:14:50 PM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
You are correct; most everything is permeable to some extent. Permeability is the result of many factors, including lattice structure, dipole interactions, hydrogen bonding, electronegativity, pressure differential, and London forces (I'm sure I forgot something). Polymers vary in permeability depending on their macromolecular arrangements.

Well, polymer chemistry is a field unto itself. 

OK, molecular motion stops at 0 Kelvin (-273.15C ). Freezing point of pure water @  atmosphere is 0C, 273K, 32F.


Jesus. Every now and then, I forget what a friggin' brilliant mind you have, Schluss. But it never takes more than one post to remind me. You are one smart dude, buddy. Kudos!


_____________________________

Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 6:50:57 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I am not one to freeze meat I already cooked. As it is- I am at times clueless over what is edible and not.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Q: About food spoilage - 12/12/2008 7:02:53 PM   
bluepanda


Posts: 328
Joined: 12/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I am not one to freeze meat I already cooked. As it is- I am at times clueless over what is edible and not.


I do it a lot. Because of my hepatitis, I tend to follow a diet that's a lot heavier on fruits and grains than on meat. But then again, I really love meat, so I do fix it fairly frequently - but because I only eat it in small portions, I wind up freezing a ton of it. I make a turkey several times a year, I love New England boiled dinners, I've got the world's best recipe for ham, and who doesn't love a good, old-world sauerbraten every now and then? And I'm single, so whenever I fix something, there are a lot of leftovers. So yeah, I freeze tons of cooked meat.

I've really got to look into getting one of those frozen-food storage kits, whatever the hell they're called. The vacuum-seal dealiebobbers. I already do that in a sort of Rube Goldberg way; I put the meat into a ziploc bag, suck all the air out with a narrow straw, and then seal the zipper as I withdraw the straw. Works pretty slick, but still. I should just spend the 100 bucks or whatever and get the machine. Much more civilized than sucking air out of plastic bags with a straw, n'est ce pas?


_____________________________

Panda, Panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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