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DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 1:48:56 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The European Court Of Human Rights today unanimously ruled that the UK database of DNA taken from people arrested is counter to European law. The decision by all seventeen judges in the case could mean that the UK must destroy the existing database and place strong controls over the future storage and length of storage of such records.

The case was brought by two individuals who had been arrested, but not charged or convicted, and who had subsequently requested that their samples be destroyed - a request declined by the UK authorities. The EU legal aid provided to the two of €2000-00 was dwarfed by the UK government's spending, put at up to a million pounds in defending the case.

As for the creeping police state that Labour seem intent on, this is a major defeat; the decision of the court is binding in law and there can be no appeal, and it will also affect government plans to store DNA on identity cards, which though this particular aspect has been said to have been discarded, is widely seen as only a matter of time before it might be added once the cards are in use.

Indeed, this is a victory for freedom at the thin end of a nasty wedge, however there are losers too. The DNA database assembled by police over recent years has led to the resolution of many serious crimes as well as lesser offences, by comparing the samples of newly arrested individuals with DNA samples taken from crime scenes many years before. And of course this same process might have been expected to continue into the future, in relation to crimes being committed right now.

The view is that the Scottish system (why Scotland always seems to be ahead of the rest of the UK is a perpetual mystery) will now form the fallback position. DNA samples are still taken from all people arrested in Scotland but the samples are kept for a short time - not forever as was the case in England and Wales.

What we need now is for the current database to be scrutinised in detail prior to its destruction (the UK government has until March 09) and any possible crimes to be resolved thereby, and for the future, using the Scottish system, to screen new samples far more quickly against outstanding offences before they too must be destroyed.

The important thing to come out of today is that there will be no UK wide DNA database as was envisaged and the spectre of which has threatened freedom and privacy for the last year or so.

Another set back for Labour too, which cant be a bad thing. And a huge embarassment to the Tories, whose antipathy to the DNA database was exceeded only by their antipathy to all things European.

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 1:52:56 PM   
MrQwerty


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Status: offline 		They can opt out of the human rights act for certain things I thought. Will be interesting to see what happens next, I heard there are thousands of profiles missing from actual criminals.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?DNA_database_doesnt_cover_2.3m_criminals&in_article_id=430699&in_page_id=34

< Message edited by MrQwerty -- 12/4/2008 1:58:20 PM >

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 2:51:46 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		We have had this one before but it's topical again and this story is strongly pro-Europe, so let's go round one more time...

Once upon a time, well, the 80's, the DNA database was started by the TORIES and expanded in the 90's by the TORIES but of course the technocrats in the Labour Party have had a field day with the thing.  Prominent Liberal Democrats are also in favour of the database.  The Black Police Association have been at the forefront of campaigning for reform and at last progress has been made.  Treated as a political football only by the lowest minds, this database is a creature of the establishment - not any one party. 

THE END

But it won't be, because being wrong doesn't seem to keep some off their high horses. Or flogging the dead ones.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 2:55:46 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Prominent Liberal Democrats are also in favour of the database. 

Which prominent Liberal Democrats please?

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 2:56:43 PM   
MrQwerty


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Status: offline 		The way the DNA database was used was radically changed by Labour with hushed up legislation that said DNA of innocent people arrested could be added to the database. This is where the fault lies, I'd love to blame the Tories for everything but alas this I can't

< Message edited by MrQwerty -- 12/4/2008 2:57:23 PM >

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:00:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I heard about this on the radio tonight.  I was surprised that anyone was surprised.  How on earth did the UK government justify keeping DNA samples of people who have never been convicted of a crime--including, in many cases, the DNA of VICTIMS?

And you people like to school US on civil-rights matters?

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:02:15 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Distinguish LaM, between the government and the people; we've largely done so the last eight years in reverse after all.

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:05:20 PM   
MrQwerty


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Status: offline 		Why don't they just be done with the whole charade and take samples from babies when they are born. Then we can have this utopian society of instant justice where all I have to do is collect other peoples DNA to plant at the crime scene when I want to commit a crime goddamnit!
 
Have you finished with that sandwich?

< Message edited by MrQwerty -- 12/4/2008 3:07:48 PM >

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:10:52 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Labour happily acceded to police and civil service pressure to develop the database and the aim was to create a database of every one of us.  There are many Tories and libdems who would by into this tomorrow, despite their parties' stated opposition.  This is a matter of public record and needs no back up.  Refutation of it does, so be my guest.

I was on a packed train this morning and shouted out "How many of you like to school the US on civil rights?" and every hand was raised.

Believing that only labour policy threatens civil liberties is the most gullible thing I've heard in eons and LE, if you believe it yourself, seek professional help.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:11:26 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Criminals have for some years been collecting other people's DNA samples to leave at crime scenes with exactly that end in mind.

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:14:23 PM   
MrQwerty


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Status: offline 		The key is to avoid storage of certain types of other people's sandwich. i.e. Tuna.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:18:57 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Labour happily acceded to police and civil service pressure to develop the database and the aim was to create a database of every one of us.  There are many Tories and libdems who would by into this tomorrow, despite their parties' stated opposition.  This is a matter of public record and needs no back up.  Refutation of it does, so be my guest.

I was on a packed train this morning and shouted out "How many of you like to school the US on civil rights?" and every hand was raised.

Believing that only labour policy threatens civil liberties is the most gullible thing I've heard in eons and LE, if you believe it yourself, seek professional help.


so, let me get this straight - you are permitted to make claims which you refuse to substantiate, and these must be held to be accurate, but others are not so permitted?

and then you say that the left does not threaten civil liberties?

lets not forget that labour are the ones who wanted 42 days detention without charge - during which the suspect must not have access to the evidence against him (habeas corpus, anyone?) and the party that removed the right to trial for many offences.

it would seem that labour are intent on a policy which you yourself demonstrate well in your refusal to substantiate your claims and your refusal to countenance any disagreement from the line adopted by the politburo....sorry, cabinet, even if that disagreement is well substantiated.

Gordon Brown is a nazi war criminal. I wont substantiate it - please provide links to show he is not?

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:24:04 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I didn't say that.  Learn to read.  I said that believing only labour threatens civil liberties etc etc. is gullible. Can you really not grasp the difference?  It means that all parties have views that threaten freedoms - and experience teaches that gaining power creates a step change in such attitudes.  You argue against things that have not actually been suggested - it's slightly nuts.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:34:39 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		And I am asking you to tell me what Lib Dem policies threaten freedom, what prominent Lib Dems have views that threaten freedom?

E

edited to add - this isnt a catch you out question - I'd like to know

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 12/4/2008 3:36:35 PM >

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:45:17 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		There bloody well are libdem supporters of it but I can't be bothered to search. There are also vociferous labour opponents of it.  It's a silly debate if based on the idea that every labour voter is in favour of every policy, or that distancing oneself from one policy precludes broad support for that party.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:46:38 PM   
BrigandDoom


Posts: 155
Joined: 12/29/2007
From: Nottingham
Status: offline 		Far too much emphasis is put on the validity of DNA evidence amnd even its accuracy. There is a now well documented case of a builder who is serving time for a crime he quite defiantely did not commit. despite the fact he could prove that he was working on a building site at the same time two ladies were the victims of a viol;lent burgulary 40 miles from Bristol in Westbury Wiltshire, the builder was convicted on DNA evidnce alone.
 
Just because the Police say they have "YOUR DNA" , that is not strictly correct. What the Forensic lab has found is that there is a DNA match to yours, it may not even actually be yours infact! The standard the UK tests to is far less than the standards employed in the Canada, EU and US.
 
Where as in the US you are looking at figures of a chance duplicate DNA match of 1-20,000,000, here it is more closer to 1-8,000,000, and that is against in the incumbentn population, not counting imgrants. So in a country of 60,000,000 your are looking at atleast 8 other people with potentially matching DNA from the normal population of the UK. Throw in imigrants which skews the figures even more and you are now looking at somewhere in the region it is believed of 50-100 potential duplicates! That makes a hell of a difference.
 
Despite the jury receiving a clear, accurate and concise summing up from the presiding Judge, the jury went against all the evidence that clearly showed the man was innocent and found him gulty! I have no doubt personally that if he had the right to have a trial without a jury he would have been cleared, but as the defence were unable to get the DNA evidence thrown out, it had to be heard. Obviously too many jurours watching and believing CSI and NCIS.
 
Then there is the possible planting of DNA or contamination by accident which must also be taken into consideration. Which brings me back to Mr Builder from Bristol. The DNA sample that convicted him was found in the finger tip of a latex glove found at the scene of the crime. Considering the fact that neither of the two victims recognised the convicted and their description which both ladies gave independently obviously did not even closely describe the man convicted. No other DNA evidence was found, which is very unusual.
 
The latex gloves were identical to those used on the building site and many pairs of used gloves could be found anywhere on the site. Thus it is possible that a.n.other picked up a pair of disguarded gloves from that site and used them in the crime. It could well even ber that the gloves were taken when Mr Builders house had been violently burgeled soem weeks previously, the MO of the burgular starngely enough fitted the Westbury crime.
 
The only reason Mr Builders DNA was on the database as his was collected as he had been a victim of crime and he had volunteered it as well! If he had said no, then the poor blokec would not now have served three years in jail for a crime HE CLEARLY DID NOT COMMIT!
 
So when I hear bleedin hearts screaming I have nothing to hide as I am innocent, its not going to help you if you are, and unfortinately Mr Plod finds yours MATCHES!

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 3:50:53 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		The Tories didnt start the DNA database until 1995, not the 80s. The problem most people have are the changes that labour made with the 2001 act. Up to then only criminals or those awaiting trial had their DNA stored. I would be equally unhappy if the Tories had made the changes in 2001.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 5:01:35 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		What has not been made clear to me (unless I missed something) is whether this applies to convicted criminals, innocents or what.

T

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/4/2008 9:04:14 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		People who have never been convicted of a crime.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

What has not been made clear to me (unless I missed something) is whether this applies to convicted criminals, innocents or what.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/5/2008 1:10:07 AM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		I'll throw one simple fact into the mix.
You don't need the actual physical sample to keep a DNA database. It can be converted to digital information and the sample discarded.

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