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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/5/2008 1:36:19 AM   
LadyEllen


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Anyone arrested T - whether charged or not. Around 1/5 (or 800,000) of the samples on the database are of people never convicted of any crime, including witnesses who are asked for a sample (elimination purposes).

E



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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/5/2008 6:06:50 AM   
LadyEllen


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The assertion that the Lib Dems or some amongst them are pursuing the same or similar ideas in relation to a DNA database was quite interesting. Anyway I checked it out and here is the reply. I'm unaware of anyone going off-message on this subject but the Party line is quite clear - "It is unacceptably intrusive for the state to hold DNA records about those who are innocent."
 
There might have been some confusion as to what was actually said. The Lib Dem line is that the police should continue to have the power to take DNA when they arrest a suspect and check it against the NDNAD. If that person is charged or accepts a caution, their DNA should be put onto the database. If however no charges are brought, the sample should be destroyed. Where a suspect is acquitted at trial, the sample should be removed from the NDNAD, except in the case of those accused of serious crimes where samples should be stored for a period of three years. The Tory line on this is mixed. Some of them want everybody to be on the database. Lib Dems disagree on the grounds that its giving a level of power to the police and government that they should not have in a free democracy.
 
In England and Wales the Liberal Democrats have also run a petition saying "While DNA is a vital tool in the fight against crime, there is no legitimate reason for the police to retain for life the DNA records of innocent people. We call on the Home Secretary to amend the law so that the DNA records of people who are innocent are no longer kept indefinitely."
 
There was an attempt to put a 10 minute rule bill through Parliament by Lib Dem MP, Jenny Willott. But I believe it didn't make it's second reading due to lack of time. The European judges decision, however, really pushes things in the right direction.
 
http://www.libdems.org.uk/home/dont-keep-innocent-peoples-dna-8248;show
 
E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/5/2008 6:17:33 AM   
RealityLicks


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Tell that to Andrew George MP for St Ives.  He's in favour.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/5/2008 6:21:14 AM   
LadyEllen


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A name at last! I will check it now

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 6:53:41 AM   
RealityLicks


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And?

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 7:01:30 AM   
LadyEllen


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From his website; (and well done for providing some evidence for a change, even if it is just one member of quite a sizeable party)

The latest subject which members of the Dinner Party set are working themselves up into a tsunami lather of righteous indignation is the horrendous, sinister, Orwellian “Police State” of data control.

They tell us that the existence of a national DNA database is a “profound threat to our liberty and privacy”. It will apparently have “dominion over our biological essence”!

I have to admit that I would have more sympathy if the Dinner Party set acknowledged that a more “profound threat to our liberty and privacy” (than the existence of a DNA database) is to be raped and killed by someone who could have been apprehended before with a proper and responsibly organised DNA database.

Contrary to the impression of some, it is not “Liberal” to put concerns about the liberty of perpetrators above those of victims.

It is not beyond the wit of legislators to, for example, create a non-compulsory DNA database operated and overseen by our universities and the judiciary and commissioned, under reasonable restrictions, for the Police to use.

I guess the point is that he's a nobody; it puts a whole different slant on things when the government are enacting crazy ideas like this. I might thing that genocide is a great idea, but it wouldnt mean a damned thing unless I had the power to enact it.

Here's the view from our candidate, also the view of the Party.

Interesting that he thinks the judiciary and universities are the proper custodians of this archive. Surely the point of the DNA database is that the police can routinely dip into it whenever they find a bit of unexplained DNA at a crime scene? And if the govt can't keep data safe, why so a bunch of students? His argument is the usual twaddle one churns out every time something terrible happens - 9/11 - lock up anyone with a sun tan. Soham - bar all men from schools. Fred West - nuke Cheltenham. Okay, I might be being a little churlish here, but it's the extreme version of what the govt is doing across the board at the moment and it's not far removed from things I hear from his so-called dinner party set, either. People have blithely allowed freedoms to be eroded and then wonder why their kids can't go to camp or why they've banned fireworks night or conkers or pancake races. They pine for the good old days of district nurses on bicycles and then when a district nurse is caught bumping off old ladies, they say hang all district nurses and demand a police state. It's government by panic. You cannot live in any sense of happiness and calm if there is not a sense of trust and an acceptance that life isn't always safe. There is little more contagious than fear it is fear which has been stirred up by the Labour government and around which they are constructing a surveillance society. Of course, we want the police to catch criminals but the ultimate extension of what he's saying is that if we're all locked up, at least they know they've caught the right man somewhere amongst all the wrong ones. This is what he's saying in the sentence "It is not “Liberal” to put concerns about the liberty of perpetrators above those of victims." Whereas what we're really saying is, "It IS "Liberal" to recognise that for us to be free and safe from THE STATE, we have to accept that a few criminals will slip through the net."   I'm fed up with this "if you haven't done anything you've got nothing to worry about" attitude. Just wait till Gordon Brown sells his DNA to an insurance company, who recognise a slightly higher risk of heart failure and refuse to let him fly. Bloody idiot! Now, I hereby declare Andrew George MP to be wrong - and not a little crazy. You see I have no problem with that; no need to defend the indefensible for the sake of wider allegiance.

The question is, can you declare the Labour government to be wrong and not a little crazy on this subject too, or do you fully support their aims and intentions, whatever those latter might be?

E
 

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 7:24:08 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

well done for providing some evidence for a change


Make your mind up.  You ask for more statistics, others accuse me of posting too many.  I post what I see as relevant but ultimately, it's down to the individual reader to decide whether they are convined or otherwise.  Two days ago you asked for a name.  In two days you haven't responded.  Was one name too much for you?

You talked as though not a single LibDem supported this thing.  Re-read your posts.  Here is the proof you should have been able to find yourself and you reject it, instead of accepting that you were wrong.  Do you really imagine that George is the sole Libdem to hold this opinion?

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 7:41:12 AM   
LadyEllen


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Do forgive me for having a life offline?

What I have read is that one (possibly more) Lib Dems have some ideas that might align towards support for the Labour government's position. I have read that the Tories introduced the database when they were in power, but that the whole thing has been transformed from that original by the Labour government.

Government is the operant word here perhaps; on the one hand the Lib Dems are written off as irrelevant but then a few isolated instances are dragged up to show that some minor players might support the government position.

This indicates, contrary to the notion that the Labour government's policies are right and good that they are in fact quite to the contrary and the identification of support for similar ideas from other sources is actually an attempt to defend the indefensible by associating blame with others who according to the Labour government's idea and actions, not to mention the Labour Party's membership, are actually irrelevant.

It is disengenuous in the extreme to seek support for the Labour Party's crazy and wrong headed policy ideas in the agreement of minor players of a party regarded as irrelevant.

Now, do you support the Labour party line or not?

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 7:56:52 AM   
RealityLicks


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Having a life offline?  You badgered me for a name, presuming there couldn't be one.  Once you were given it, you disappeared from the thread but you've clearly posted on other threads in the last two days.

Unlike you, I am not a member of any political party.  I am a socialist and usually vote Labour.  That does not mean I have to defend all their policies and it's no particular prize to have me say so, since I've criticised many of their policies on this forum.  Unremarkable, given that half the PLP opposes the dna database.

Next time, make a point, not an assumption.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 8:05:33 AM   
MadAxeman


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Socialism gets yet another definition on CM.

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 8:21:04 AM   
LadyEllen


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Which Labour policies have you adversely criticised? Because it seems to me that whenever any item of national governance comes up here, we can rely on you to defend the Labour government position and policy.

The point is, this is a Labour government issue, not a Tory issue and not a Lib Dem issue - unless Labour no longer have a majority in the House that is?

E

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 8:36:09 AM   
Raechard


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edited because I posted it on the wrong thread.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 12/7/2008 8:38:10 AM >


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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 9:22:44 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Which Labour policies have you adversely criticised? Because it seems to me that whenever any item of national governance comes up here, we can rely on you to defend the Labour government position and policy.



Really?  My first post on this thread, for example...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Realitylicks

The Black Police Association have been at the forefront of campaigning for reform and at last progress has been made.  Treated as a political football only by the lowest minds, this database is a creature of the establishment - not any one party. 

THE END

But it won't be, because being wrong doesn't seem to keep some off their high horses. Or flogging the dead ones.


(emphasis added)

Did you miss this, or did it simply not fit your assumptions about me?

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RE: DNA database setback for Labour - 12/7/2008 11:21:32 AM   
LadyEllen


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"Progress has been made" could mean change in whichever direction one preferred RL, and unless you personally are the BPA your post indicates even less about your views.

E

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