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MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 4:22:07 AM

LadyEllen

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/28/conservatives1

Tory MP Damian Green was arrested yesterday by anti-terrorism police following his receipt of government information passed on it is believed by a civil servant in the Home Office.

This is a whole new departure in the UK, where such leaks have always been expected and accepted as being in the public interest where information is being withheld by government.

Commentators from all three main political parties on BBCs This Week (a round up of the week in politics) last night said it was inconceivable that the police would act in this way on such a matter without explicit Home Office direction to do so. The Home Office and No.10 meanwhile deny any involvement.

This is a deeply significant development in the UK. If it is not slapped down immediately we can only expect things to deteriorate further towards the sort of police state which we fear and are reassured by government couldnt be further from their thoughts. Personally I detest the Tories, but even so this is not something that can be tolerated in any way. It will be you or me thats next.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 4:46:27 AM

RealityLicks

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Contrary to your claim, it is entirely conceivable that this action could have been ordered without the knowledge of the Home Office. The leak related to a matter connected with national security and was thus within the remit of the outgoing Met Commissioner. If Green had asked his source to keep him informed in anticipation of receiving further leaks, that's a conspiracy that undermines security. MP's do receive privileged information but they're not above the law. Asking someone to leak is simply not allowed - and he has no security clearance.

I agree that a squad of coppers was heavy-handed policing. He's an MP; they could have quietly pulled him in.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 4:56:01 AM

LadyEllen

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Not my claim RL, the claim of

Diane Abbot MP, Labour
Michael Portillo former MP, Conservative
Chris Huehne MP, Lib Dem

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:10:17 AM

LadyEllen

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The stories are understood to have included the disclosure that 5,000 illegal immigrants were working as security guards and bouncers; news that an illegal immigrant was employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons; a whip’s list of potential Labour rebels against 42-day detention for terror suspects; and a letter from Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, to Mr Brown warning that the recession would spark a rise in crime.

from timesonline - I'd say someone's embarassment is more likely than any threat to national security as the explanation. Unless of course anyone knows different? (disclosing which would be a breach of the law)

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:10:50 AM

RealityLicks

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Well, they're hardly infallible. According the BBC, the police were called in by the leaker's boss. It's his job to apprehend people who make free with sensitive information. If charges result, it will be down to the courts to decide if it was justified to break the law in the public interest. Let's not get our bloomers in a reef knot just yet.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:14:49 AM

LadyEllen

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I'm so glad youre not at all perturbed RL, when members of all parties, including Diane Abbot - a famous supporter of "the glorious leader" are perturbed.

Yes, whistle blowers do run a risk; but pursuing them is one thing - arresting someone in receipt of the subject matter something very different.

If they get away with arresting an MP who might speak out of turn, what hope for any of us mere mortals?

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:26:50 AM

meatcleaver

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What Green is assumed to have done, is illegal and has been for a very long time, thee police just haven't bothered to pursue such cases before with any vigor. Why they seem to have suddenly got interested in this case and over material most reasonable poeple would probably believe should be in the public domain, god only knows. Maybe it was the cash for honours saga where there was so much political interference in the investigation, the police want to now hang a politician. No doubt we'll find out in good time.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:33:33 AM

LadyEllen

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Well, lets assume he wasnt arrested on the direction of the Home Office or other govt department.

Given that, and given the cash for honours thing and the departure of Iain Blair from the Met and all the other recent embarassments theyve suffered - do we really think the police wouldnt have checked with the Home Office/govt before acting, and can we not then say that they did act shows Home Office/govt approval at least?

Or should we believe that this was purely a police decision and therefore one might say (as Michael Portillo said last night) the police "are even bigger bloody fools than we thought"?

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:48:15 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
do we really think the police wouldnt have checked with the Home Office/govt before acting, and can we not then say that they did act shows Home Office/govt approval at least?

As I said, the police were called in by the HO but by the civil service head - the leakers' boss. You show little understanding of the way the different arms of government work, are you perhaps trying to kick-start a debate about which you have too little knowledge?

As for the idea that Abbott is a Brown supporter; what planet have you been living on? She spearheaded the revolt on 42 days, defying a three-line whip and winning an award from the right for her speech in the process.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:51:26 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Well, lets assume he wasnt arrested on the direction of the Home Office or other govt department.

Given that, and given the cash for honours thing and the departure of Iain Blair from the Met and all the other recent embarassments theyve suffered - do we really think the police wouldnt have checked with the Home Office/govt before acting, and can we not then say that they did act shows Home Office/govt approval at least?

Or should we believe that this was purely a police decision and therefore one might say (as Michael Portillo said last night) the police "are even bigger bloody fools than we thought"?

E

The police force is supposed to be apolitical so if they have checked with the home office first, all Brits should be rather worried and on the streets protesting. Politicians are supposed to make laws, not direct police as to who and who not to arrest. If politicians are telling the police who to arreast, British democracy is in a worse state than we all think.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 6:12:09 AM

susie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Well, lets assume he wasnt arrested on the direction of the Home Office or other govt department.

Given that, and given the cash for honours thing and the departure of Iain Blair from the Met and all the other recent embarassments theyve suffered - do we really think the police wouldnt have checked with the Home Office/govt before acting, and can we not then say that they did act shows Home Office/govt approval at least?

Or should we believe that this was purely a police decision and therefore one might say (as Michael Portillo said last night) the police "are even bigger bloody fools than we thought"?

E

The police force is supposed to be apolitical so if they have checked with the home office first, all Brits should be rather worried and on the streets protesting. Politicians are supposed to make laws, not direct police as to who and who not to arrest. If politicians are telling the police who to arreast, British democracy is in a worse state than we all think.

As the police searched his Parlimentary Office as well as his home the Home Office would of course have been informed before the search was made.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 6:14:46 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The police force is supposed to be apolitical so if they have checked with the home office first, all Brits should be rather worried and on the streets protesting. Politicians are supposed to make laws, not direct police as to who and who not to arrest. If politicians are telling the police who to arreast, British democracy is in a worse state than we all think.

and there's the point. If they got direction, authorisation or approval from government then we have a problem with the system. If they didnt then we have a problem with the police.

and RL - which ministry do you head up again? Youre just about a perfect match for a New Labour ideologue, so if youre not on the inside already you might want to get your CV in.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 6:20:33 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The police force is supposed to be apolitical so if they have checked with the home office first, all Brits should be rather worried and on the streets protesting. Politicians are supposed to make laws, not direct police as to who and who not to arrest. If politicians are telling the police who to arreast, British democracy is in a worse state than we all think.

and there's the point. If they got direction, authorisation or approval from government then we have a problem with the system. If they didnt then we have a problem with the police.

If Green did what it is assumed he has done, we don't have a problem with the police because he would have done something illegal. The problem is that politicians (on both sides) want it both ways, they want to use such laws against the civil servants who leak but don't want politicians to be the subject of the same laws when they leak what they have been given. Politicians ghave the answer in their own hands, repeal the law being used or strengthen freedom of information laws.

Don't forget, a civil servant has been arrested for giving the information to Green. Are politicians above the law? Surely the police have to arrest either both the civil servant and the politician or neither.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/28/2008 6:21:46 AM >

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 6:47:31 AM

LadyEllen

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They can arrest the civil servant as you say - but to arrest someone who happened to receive the information is another matter. If Green solicited the information then it is another matter still, but there is no mention of this so one might conclude that possession of the information is his offence - and the involvement of anti-terror police presumably makes it a terrorism case along the lines of "information of use to terrorists" - really? A list of embarassing stories of Home Office mistakes is of use to terrorists?

I feel Green's offence might have been more aptly described as "potentially embarassing the gloried ones"

The wider implications of all this are being overlooked.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 10:49:23 AM

meatcleaver

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If the assumption is right, he has not been arrested for possessing the information but for putting the information into the public domain, a very big difference. Green could have done the right thing under the law and informed the authorities of the leak and of the information he had received. The moment politicians become above the law is the moment we say goodbye to democracy.

Personally I think the law involved is a load of bollocks but Parliament made the law and Green is a member of Parliament so he can't really complain.

My beef is, that a politician can feel hard done by and a civil servant is seen as having his or her, just deserts, they are both subject to the law. If the law is stupid and I think it is, MPs should repeal the law and there would be no problem.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/28/2008 10:53:53 AM >

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 10:52:01 AM

celticlord2112

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It would seem the police are as much the enemy of the people in the UK as they are here in the US.

At least here in the US we can distract the worthless parasites with doughnuts.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:00:27 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If the assumption is right, he has not been arrested for possessing the information but for putting the information into the public domain, a very big difference. Green could have done the right thing under the law and informed the authorities of the leak and of the information he had received. The moment politicians become above the law is the moment we say goodbye to democracy.

Personally I think the law involved is a load of bollocks but Parliament made the law and Green is a member of Parliament so he can't really complain.

My beef is, that a politician can feel hard done by and a civil servant is seen as having his or her, just deserts, they are both subject to the law. If the law is stupid and I think it is, MPs should repeal the law and there would be no problem.

I fully agree with the first paragraph at least. Both main parties have used the press to leak information when it suited them. Labour seem to leak stories before they decide on a policy. Lets hope the police get a chance to do what they are paid for, without political interference.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:03:51 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Lets hope the police get a chance to do what they are paid for, without political interference.

Frankly, I hope police never get a chance to do "what they are paid for"--that usually results in innocent people getting arrested or killed.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:12:14 AM

BKSir

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Honestly, I'm glad that they didn't just wisk him away quietly and in secret. He did something illegal, period, and the police arrested him, just as they would anyone else, period. He may be an MP, but, that doesn't give him special rights for special treatment by the police. That's like saying "You can't arrest me, I have 20 billion dollars, I'm rich, I'm above the law.", or "I'm David Tennant, I'm one of the most famous people in the UK right now, you can't arrest me, I'm above the law because I'm famous!". Horse muffins.

He's an MP, he KNOWS the laws. Or at least, is supposed to. He should be held to the same standards as everyone else, if not even moreso.

Now, do I agree with the law that caused him to be arrested, or the reason he was arrested? Not really, but, the law is the law, and the police were simply enforcing it. If one doesn't like the law, don't take it up with the police, take it up with someone who can help change it. If I get pulled over for doing 95 in a 65, I may not like the law, but, I broke it, and I knew better, and I'm responsible for the consequences. I'm also responsible for talking to my representative to try and find a mutually agreeable solution, such as, having the speed limit changed from 65 to 75. Just as an example. So yes, the law itself is rubbish, but, they were doing their job, something that police in a lot of places seem to not do. Ought to at least give them some credit for that.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:15:33 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

They can arrest the civil servant as you say - but to arrest someone who happened to receive the information is another matter. If Green solicited the information then it is another matter still, but there is no mention of this so one might conclude that possession of the information is his offence

I've underlined the relevant point. It's all over the news that this guy has been supplying information for some time. That implies the soliciting of it.

Oh yeah, and refusing to scream "police state" does not a "new labour ideologue" make. Not on planet Earth, anyway.

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