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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:15:50 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Lets hope the police get a chance to do what they are paid for, without political interference.

Frankly, I hope police never get a chance to do "what they are paid for"--that usually results in innocent people getting arrested or killed.

Maybe so CL, but its better than not having a police force at all. Im not suggesting for one minute the system is perfect. Most in the UK feel safer with it than without it.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:19:02 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Lets hope the police get a chance to do what they are paid for, without political interference.

Frankly, I hope police never get a chance to do "what they are paid for"--that usually results in innocent people getting arrested or killed.

Maybe so CL, but its better than not having a police force at all. Im not suggesting for one minute the system is perfect. Most in the UK feel safer with it than without it.

Think for a moment about what you just said. Think also how it might feel if you are one of said innocent people--or someone you know/love/care about.

The only time I'm ever not safe is when one of those thugs in uniform is close at hand.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:32:41 AM

Politesub53

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Maybe things are different in the US. Of course there is no justification for police errors, such as the guy shot on the London tube. These mistakes are rare in the UK. More people in the UK are shot by criminals than by the police. Thankfully the days of the police lying to get a conviction occur much less than back in the 70s as well.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 11:54:44 AM

meatcleaver

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This case is not a police mistake if the assumption of what Green did is right.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/28/2008 5:51:45 PM

tweedydaddy

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There can be no possible justification for the summary arrest of a sitting member of a sovereign parliament, especially when there is no question whatever of his personally being culpable of any criminal offence.
This is the flatfoots being sent out by number ten to silence an MP who is performing the job he was elected to do and also performing a moral service for which people of any political persuasion should be grateful.
There are no justifications for this. There are only the tired excuses of a Police state that is quite prepared to violate any rights we, or as we can now see, our elected members of parliament ever had.
If Brown's blue bully boys can lock up an MP at will, then we are without any civil rights at all and we are under their boots and guns.
You can deny it all you like, you may even fool yourself, but if you stick your head out and they come for you, exactly who do you think is going to be able to help you?
Your local MP may be less than perfect, but just try reasoning with a copper sometime.
The BNP is off limits to serving Bobbies, there is no room in our police force for fascists, - they're chock a block with them already.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/29/2008 12:05:08 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

There can be no possible justification for the summary arrest of a sitting member of a sovereign parliament, especially when there is no question whatever of his personally being culpable of any criminal offence.
This is the flatfoots being sent out by number ten to silence an MP who is performing the job he was elected to do and also performing a moral service for which people of any political persuasion should be grateful.
There are no justifications for this. There are only the tired excuses of a Police state that is quite prepared to violate any rights we, or as we can now see, our elected members of parliament ever had.
If Brown's blue bully boys can lock up an MP at will, then we are without any civil rights at all and we are under their boots and guns.
You can deny it all you like, you may even fool yourself, but if you stick your head out and they come for you, exactly who do you think is going to be able to help you?
Your local MP may be less than perfect, but just try reasoning with a copper sometime.
The BNP is off limits to serving Bobbies, there is no room in our police force for fascists, - they're chock a block with them already.

Publicizing government information received through illicit means is an offence, the flatfoots haven't got it wrong. If rumour is right, Green was procuring government information from a civil servant, that is inciting someone to break the law. MPs are subject to the same laws as the rest of us, their only immunity is their ability to say anything in Parliament without having to face prosecution or private litigation. They are not imune from anything else. The fact that the police don't usually pursue politicians while pursuing none politicians has long been the real scandal. In this case the police pursued the civil servant so it was duty bound on them to pursue the politician. If the politicians don't like it, they could change the law. However, I doubt they will be cause when in government, politicians like the laws that protect their information. The one thing that could stop this farce happening again is to have a freedom of information law which is what it says it is. The politicians have the solution in their hands, they could do something about it but I doubt they will because they want it both ways.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/29/2008 6:34:10 AM

LadyEllen

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Tony Benn was on the TV last night (Channel4 news) about this matter; he is deeply perturbed by it all.

His view - which one would tend to support - is that there is an absolute right for witnesses to be able to go to their MP with information which is in the public interest and to be protected as a witness to a court - The Commons being the Court of Parliament. More so then, the MP to whom that information is proferred.

The police have no right to interfere with witnesses or lawyers in any other court, so why should they be so permitted in this case?

Now the civil service may have agreements with their employees regarding their conduct at work. The civil servant here alleged to be responsible, if he has breached those agreements can be subjected to disciplinary procedures and perhaps dismissed. There is no reason to involve police - or should I call in the police to investigate my employees' should they (for instance) disclose business information to a competitor? If I did, I would be told in no uncertain terms this was a civil matter and that would be the end of it.

If my employee went to his/her MP with information about my activities - not criminal but embarassing (lets say spreading false rumours about competitors - a much worse scenario than the one in hand), could I then have him/her arrested and the MP pursued similarly? Or would I be left to simply dismiss the employee and face the wrath of those harmed by my lies?

If I am able to call the police in and have them act then my competitors need never know the source of their deteriorating reputations, and I may continue with my practices in the safety of the knowledge that I am in future untouchable. Hey, I might start some new rumours or go even further with my dodgy practices.

This confusion of civil law and criminal law is disturbing - more so because of the power of the state over our daily lives, and frankly terrifying in the context of the general direction of the state in wishing to acquire more power over us.

E
(Prisoner 4928495, Belmarsh High Security Prison for Dissidents, 2010-2045)

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/29/2008 7:48:27 AM

meatcleaver

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LE, as far as the rumours for the reason for Green's arrest, it was not that he had a constituent coming to him with information that was in the public interest but he was actively procuring government information ie. illiciting someone to break the law, to embarrass the government of the day. He was actively breaking the law, he was not the passive receiver of confidential information. However if MPs are so concerned it is within their power to repeal the law in question or create a new law giving MPs immunity.

We will no doubt find out soon enough what he is alledged to ahve really done.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 11/29/2008 6:14:18 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/28/conservatives1

Tory MP Damian Green was arrested yesterday by anti-terrorism police following his receipt of government information passed on it is believed by a civil servant in the Home Office.

This is a whole new departure in the UK, where such leaks have always been expected and accepted as being in the public interest where information is being withheld by government.

Commentators from all three main political parties on BBCs This Week (a round up of the week in politics) last night said it was inconceivable that the police would act in this way on such a matter without explicit Home Office direction to do so. The Home Office and No.10 meanwhile deny any involvement.

This is a deeply significant development in the UK. If it is not slapped down immediately we can only expect things to deteriorate further towards the sort of police state which we fear and are reassured by government couldnt be further from their thoughts. Personally I detest the Tories, but even so this is not something that can be tolerated in any way. It will be you or me thats next.

E

Why anti terror police though, what is it, what is happening, this so called special unit of police supposedly formed to counter terrorists, why they are being used for all sorts of things, including the fiasco with the Icelandic banks.

Now either the thing with the Icelandic banks and this Green affair are linked to possible terrorist actions or this new police unit with it's extended powers are the new government bully boys, which is it ?

Why this special unit when the normal plod would do ? And if this special unit is involved with arresting MP's, I do hope this is not diverting their attention from the supposed reason they were formed. That reason being the hunting of terrorists.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/4/2008 3:56:41 PM

LadyEllen

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_week/7700556.stm (includes a link to watch the programme)

David Starkey is on this week's This Week, talking about the historical aspect of this matter. Our constitution is broken by this episode according to him.

In brief, Henry VIII granted freedom of speech and freedom from arrest for members of Parliament
This was threatened for centuries after until the famous episode with Charles I trying to enter Parliament to arrest members - which helped lead to civil war

In 2008, the Speaker and the Sergeant At Arms - there specifically to protect the freedoms of members, stood by and allowed the monarch (in the form of the police) to enter Parliament and arrest a member.

That the government has done nothing to rebuke this breach of the constitution but instead chosen to support it - albeit Harriet Harman has said something (which hasnt been much).

Broken indeed.

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 12/4/2008 3:57:30 PM >

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/4/2008 4:10:57 PM

Politesub53

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Harman was interesting on newsnight yesterday. She refused to openly back the Speaker.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 1:47:17 AM

LadyEllen

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Thats the thing though isnt it? They all know theyve been caught with their knickers round their ankles and not one of them wants to either fess up or blame another for fear of that implicating themselves.

I smell a big, bloated, stinking and rotten rat at the centre of this.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 2:16:41 AM

RealityLicks

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The Speaker has ordered an inquiry and the Govt want it to wait until any charges are laid. That's not supporting it - it shows the Govt bowing to due process instead of sacking yet more senior police officers.

The police did not enter Parliament to arrest Green. They arrested him at his Kent constituency office. They searched his Commons office and home. The real outcry is over the confiscation of his computer.

And just to top it off, it's "Serjeant at Arms", not "sergeant" as the title retains it's archaic spelling.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 2:42:00 AM

LadyEllen

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Henry VIII granted freedom of speech ..............................for members of Parliament (lets ignore the arrest bit for now)

If receiving mail and potentially reading its contents in Parliament is an offence, one must explain this rather archaic right in that context.

Indeed if such is now an offence then by extention one might be criminalised for reading out the words of this post to anyone else in the room

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 3:54:01 AM

RealityLicks

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Henry also believed in the divine right of kings. Let's avoid pretension.

This civil servant could have passed the info to a neutral source but instead for two years fed secrets to the Tories in the hope of landing a job with them and has also stood as a Tory councillor. This alone should void his employment and makes the MP and his party complicit in deception. It wasn't just an anonymous tip-off, but blatant careerism.

Is it embarassing for Labour? Undoubtedly. Is it a constitutional crisis? By no means.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 4:15:53 AM

LadyEllen

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we must distinguish RL between the civil law liabilities of the civil servant and the criminal law liabilities as they are being sought to be applied in this case.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 4:24:32 AM

RealityLicks

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Let's also bear in mind that Henry ruled by proclamation and was no pioneer of the rights of Parliament beyond their tax-raising powers in his benefit.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 4:43:43 AM

LadyEllen

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I'm sorry RL, but when the whole House but for the cabinet and other career Labour MPs is in uproar (including Labour backbenchers), when every political commentator is is uproar, when Tony Benn makes comments such as he did on Channel 4 news last week, when prominent constitutional historians are in uproar, when the cabinet and the officials of the House are at such great pains to deflect all responsibility as a result........... there is something amiss I fancy, and very much a case to answer.

If this matter had been left as one involving the civil law in relation to the employment contract and conditions of civil servants, it would be of no matter whatsoever to the constitution and there would not be such disquiet amongst those in the know on such issues. As things are it is as Starkey said, evidence that our constitution is broken by all this, which is why the disquiet.

Unless all those MPs (including Labour backbenchers) and the other notable experts, as well as the constitutional arrangements are wrong of course, which latter is a whole other debate.

E

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 5:24:57 AM

RealityLicks

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Every political commentator is not "in uproar". The police were equally tough on Labour in the "cash for peerages" scandal, arresting a Labour official in the small hours.

That's enough for me, on this. I'll wait for more facts to emerge.

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RE: MP arrested by anti-terror police - 12/5/2008 9:56:30 AM

Politesub53

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The biggest irony is that leaking info was Browns biggest tactic. If Green broke the law, then so did our Gordon.

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