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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:59:44 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I find it very interesting that several people don't seem to differentiate "guilt" and "guilt trip".  I was under the impression that guilt is an emotion you feel when you have done something wrong, or should have done something differently, and it is a form of shame.

On the other hand, I was under the impression that "guilt trip" is when someone else tries to make you feel guilty for something you did, or didn't do, or something they want you to do or not do.


WebsterCali



This is my understanding of the difference, too.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 11:13:10 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
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From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
... You did the wrong thing on purpose, then you accept the consequences. Guilt need not be applied.

I think that's called being amoral.
Sometimes you hurt others by your choices, even when it's the best choice you could have made.
You can consider the harm you've cause somewhat dispassionately (from a "long view" perspective for example), but I think to ignore it or regard it as completely irrelevent is ...
Well, I'm not sure what it is, exactly.
What can you say about it?
"You suffered at my hands. So what?"...

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 11:31:47 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Not in a traditional sense and not for the purposes of manipulating an outcome. If I want a certain response from my slave/sub I'll request it...not need for underhanded play.

Now, I do sometimes take time to put the sub/slave in a place where they have to mull over things they've done...to let themselves feel a bit of drowning in the guilt, so as to vibrantly understand it and realize the full implications of the actions that caused it. Depending on the mindset of the receiver, this can come across as a 'guilt trip', but it's an instructive  process to put the sub/slave in a place of clarity of how her specifics actions/inactions were dishonorable or hurtful.

Some people don't like having to take full responsibility for the mistakes they make and then proceed to paint any mention by another of them taking time to think about it and realize what they've done as a "guilt trip". I personally do not find that acceptable...and don't shy away from dealing with the issue for tip-toeish fear of them taking it as a "guilt trip".

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 11/27/2008 11:33:44 AM >

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 11:46:48 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
A guilt trip outside of play has no place in our relationship.  If he has a preference on what choices I make then he will tell me what I am going to choose.  He doesn't need to manipulate me into doing what he wants, he just has to make his preferences clear.



and within play... it is humorous to watch a slut try to guilt trip a sadistic asshole.    aaaaaawww laughter is good!

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 12:18:07 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I can't ever remember a time when I didn't feel guilty about being me.
I'm trying to constantly work out whether people make me feel that way on purpose or not.
Would I do this to someone else? It always depends on the circumstances.
Yes if it is the only way to try and stop them abusing me.
A mindfuck can be abuse. Humiliation can be abuse. Physical discipline can be abuse.
Leaving all decisions to someone else can be abuse. Consent is the only thing that stops anything that someone else doesn't like from being abuse.
So how does anyone stop themselves from being abused?
How do I stop people from playing head games with me?
I've been sexually abused, physically abused, verbally abused.
Sacked from my job. All because those people didn't like my sexuality.
I used to be a slut. I liked being a slut. Seems that one can't be a slut whithout someone deciding that I need to be punished for it. Especially if I don't want to be a slut with them. Oh and I was an arrogant slut which is even worse seemingly.
I've now stopped being a slut. Not that it will stop the abuse but it stoped being fun. Not going to stop being arrogant though. That is still fun.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 12:19:30 PM   
MsFlutter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad

I'm curious if people find guilt trips to be an acceptable or unacceptable dynamic in their D/s relationships.  I want to explore this topic because some people are into mental or emotional manipulation.


Unacceptable. My mother was a travel agent for guilt trips. I am incapable of a positive reaction to any form of it.  Haven't so far seen where it would have a place in any caring dynamic. 

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 2:12:38 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
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quote:

John said:
Well hell's bells... that's just someone unwilling to make a decision (as in, "no, you're not going to visit your family, you're staying right here with me").  I just don't identify that as a "guilt trip" so much as I do someone hoping to manipulate another into making a decision for them (because I assure you, it's happening at other times as well without the guilt). 


Yeah John.  I agree with you on that one start to finish.  I cannot for the life of me imagine why I would need or want to lay a guilt trip (or, for that matter, perform any sort of emotional manipulation) on my slave in order to get her to obey.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but if she is truly mine, in her own head and heart, then no "convincing" should be necessary.  If convincing was necessary, then she wouldn't be mine.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 11/27/2008 2:44:37 PM >

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 2:23:51 PM   
MistressSassy66


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

A person without guilt has no conscience, and is capable of doing anything.  If a partner of mine does something intentionally unacceptable and doesn't feel guilty about it, that's a sure sign I don't want to have anything to do with them (though in truth, that fatal flaw would show itself long before becoming my partner). 
 
On the other hand, if they do something intentionally wrong and feel guilty about it... good!  And if they do something wrong, feel guilty about it, and I lecture them and it makes them feel more guilty (call it a guilt trip if you want)... tough!  I want to make sure I'm understood, that we have a common appreciation for what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how it's not going to happen again.
 
They did the crime, now do the time without whining about some guilt trip.
 
John




I agree with this post completely.When slave janet does
something wrong there should be some guilt.
If I make her feel guilty because maybe she didnt
think what she did was 'that bad',I have no problem
making her feel guilty.I think feeling guilty can stop
'some' people from doing things they know are wrong.


I will add that I depise the fact that
some family members try to guilt Me into
visiting them.Things like that I dont like.
I dont play those kinds of guilt trips.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 3:00:54 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		For me, guilt in a manipulative situation carries too many negative associations. Usually when I find a person is trying to guilt me into something, I automatically react in anger. Emotional manipulation usually doesn't work on me and leaves me feeling cold inside. 

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 3:38:45 PM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		a D i was with, probably for about a year, used to try the guilt thing on me and i told him flat - 'i dont do guilt' - he laughed, it was in his personality a bit to dish the whole guilt trip on me and id flat out refuse to go along with it.

guilt for me is a really negative manipulatory tool - but i can see that it could be effective if you are an emotional masochist.  im not, so not my thing.  for what its worth.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 4:48:36 PM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		Two words...
 
Screw guilt...
 
I can`t see what good it would do and or be, to manipulate human beings thru *guilt*...under any conditions...to many have a resin of it stuck to themselves as it...is
 
Maybe I spent to much time around catholic schol girls whilst growing up...<smiles a li`l>
 
But then...play is...play
 
 

(in reply to DogGoneBad)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 6:08:08 PM   
pinkwind


Posts: 367
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		Start laying guilt trips on me and just watch how fast i lose all respect for whoever tries. Personally, guilt trips are laid on people by those who have esteem issues, or worse.

i stay with Andy because we have built a relationship on mutual trust and openness, a need for what the other brings to the party, and the great desire to make each other happy. If he started to lay guilt trips one me, or me on him, there would be grounds for doubting that what we had was entirely as at seemed, and the rot would set in slowly.

Guilt trips would erode whatever we had between us, and would eventually damage our relationship irreparably. They are nasty manipulative ploys, totally unnecessary in a stable relationship.

Great care has to be taken in any dynamic that delves into the realm of mental or emotional manipulation, there has to be a great strength of connection between the players for such ploys to be successful. It would be all too easy to plant negativity in the mind of the "victim", and not to retrace ones steps and put it right afterwards. Nothing could be worse than seeding doubt in the mind of someone we purport to love or care for.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Guilt trips - 11/28/2008 9:38:53 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

Some people don't like having to take full responsibility for the mistakes they make and then proceed to paint any mention by another of them taking time to think about it and realize what they've done as a "guilt trip". I personally do not find that acceptable...and don't shy away from dealing with the issue for tip-toeish fear of them taking it as a "guilt trip".

Right - some people can't take criticism of any kind and will view anything that isn't positive feedback as a personal attack or "guilt trip" or something of the kind.

So it can be relative in that way.

I think "guilt", as most people are using it here, seems to be something more unproductive that just recognizing past mistakes or accepting consequences, though.

In my post above I was thinking of a conversation I'd had a long time ago with some people who "didn't do regret", which is an attitude I can't quite understand.

I think I flashed back to that conversation and equated "guilt" with remorse or regret.

I'm not sure which is the right word to use, but there should be some sort of mechanism in one's psychological make-up that allows one to recognize when one has caused pain (of the non-consensual kind, that is), or otherwise seriously screwed up, and to correct for that in the future, and/or possibly make reperations to the past - should there not?

~What would the proper word for that be, then?

Wouldn't that be part of compassion, or am I way out in left field here?

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 11/28/2008 9:41:40 AM >

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/28/2008 10:05:24 AM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

I'm not sure which is the right word to use, but there should be some sort of mechanism in one's psychological make-up that allows one to recognize when one has caused pain (of the non-consensual kind, that is), or otherwise seriously screwed up, and to correct for that in the future, and/or possibly make reperations to the past - should there not?


In my case the word was "divorce" but I don't think that's what you were going for.

Cali


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RE: Guilt trips - 11/28/2008 9:25:01 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

A person without guilt has no conscience, and is capable of doing anything.  If a partner of mine does something intentionally unacceptable and doesn't feel guilty about it, that's a sure sign I don't want to have anything to do with them (though in truth, that fatal flaw would show itself long before becoming my partner). 
 
On the other hand, if they do something intentionally wrong and feel guilty about it... good!  And if they do something wrong, feel guilty about it, and I lecture them and it makes them feel more guilty (call it a guilt trip if you want)... tough!  I want to make sure I'm understood, that we have a common appreciation for what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how it's not going to happen again.
 
They did the crime, now do the time without whining about some guilt trip.
 
John




I agree with this post completely.When slave janet does
something wrong there should be some guilt.
If I make her feel guilty because maybe she didnt
think what she did was 'that bad',I have no problem
making her feel guilty.I think feeling guilty can stop
'some' people from doing things they know are wrong.


I will add that I depise the fact that
some family members try to guilt Me into
visiting them.Things like that I dont like.
I dont play those kinds of guilt trips.

Actually I don't think this was Rover's best work at all...!  His first paragraph seems to describe a sociopath, which is over-stating the topic exponentially.
 
As for the remainder, I agree that a level of remorse (guilt) is something I expect to see when the girl screws up and I'm putting her straight but I don't agree that that's what a "guilt trip" is.  Rover seems more inclined to hammer that guilt home than I might, but that's ok, too!
 
What isn't ok is when the level of "desired" guilt is blown waaaay out of proportion to the actual indiscretion, or especially when there was no indiscretion at all and it's then a matter of the accuser's questionable motives, morals or mental state.  That's when it gets ugly....
 
And yeah, most family will try and guilt you at some stage, tis the "price of membership"....  lol
 
Focus.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/28/2008 9:53:29 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Let
quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad

I'm curious if people find guilt trips to be an acceptable or unacceptable dynamic in their D/s relationships.  I want to explore this topic because some people are into mental or emotional manipulation.





Let me state from the start that I haven't read the preceeding pages other than the OP.
I find that guilt trips can be the worst kind of self torture and exptrememly dammaging to the emotional and mental stability of some people. It is not something I like to do, however, I also know that the worst punishment I can inflict on a slave is to have her understand tht what ever it was she did, I found it displeasine and I am dissapointed in her. I will tell her so quite clearly once and then leave it. No other punishment I can do will be quite so severe. The thing is in my opinion, say it once and then leave it alone untill you have reason to praise her  for something. She will suffer but will know that you are not going to beat her over the head with it everytime you see her. (A tad like driving a matchstick into a sand pile with a sledge hammer ~~~~ Over kill).



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RE: Guilt trips - 11/28/2008 10:19:58 PM   
CFslaves


Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad

I'm curious if people find guilt trips to be an acceptable or unacceptable dynamic in their D/s relationships.  I want to explore this topic because some people are into mental or emotional manipulation.





i find it unacceptable considering what me and my pet have been through and the fact that i know Master knowing what we have been through wont do that to us. now if it is to help us realize our mistakes of being out of line and guilty then i think Master would do it but to do it intentionally for the hell of it wont happen for us.

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Profile   Post #: 57
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