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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:24:47 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Status: offline 		I see holding someone accountable for their actions, as completely different from an emtional maninulation intended to provoke a guilt trip.  In my opinion, when someone begins to use coercive methods to get their way, there is something wrong.  It ranks right up there with the Quid Pro Quo type of emotional manipulation.  I don't think some things make for good barter.  When ones emotional stability is being fucked with in that manner, it just makes for an emotionally unstable dynamic, at least - that is the way I see it.

(in reply to trealeon)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:24:48 AM   
CalifChick


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From: California
Status: offline 		I find it very interesting that several people don't seem to differentiate "guilt" and "guilt trip".  I was under the impression that guilt is an emotion you feel when you have done something wrong, or should have done something differently, and it is a form of shame.

On the other hand, I was under the impression that "guilt trip" is when someone else tries to make you feel guilty for something you did, or didn't do, or something they want you to do or not do.


WebsterCali


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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:36:13 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trealeon

When I am training my slaves I definitely use tactics that work on their mindset and encourage and bring out their submissive and slave qualities. I want them to have the mindset of a slave. I will shame them if they do something wrong and I do that both mentally and with physical punishments.

However I consider a "guilt-trip" to be something different than lecturing a slave for doing something wrong. To me, "laying a guilt trip" is when someone uses their influence over the other to make them feel guilty about something they would normally do to satisfy the needs or desires of the first.

For instance, if my slave wanted to spend time with her family... I would lay a "guilt trip on her" to convince her that she was not being a good slave by going and spending time with her and say things like "obviously you don't love me or care about being my slave if you're just going to run off and be with your family." or something along those lines. Then she feels guilty and stays. I have to admit, I've done this a few times in the past but I realized how unhealthy it was and don't now.


The instance of the *obviously you don't love me if...* usually tells me that I have the ability to control someone elses feelings. Any guilty pangs that are raised are accompanied by lessening of respect and a fairly hefty dose of resentment.

Being *told off* for something I know I've done wrong, for me, is a consequence not a guilt-trip.

On the shame thing.....I also can't be MADE to feel it. I'm either ashamed or I'm not.

agirl






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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:39:03 AM   
ultimateteach


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Status: offline 		I must agree, the ultimate submission comes because someone wants to come back to you, not has to come back to you.
Guilt trips don't work.
We have a responsibilty for the emotional and physical safety of our charges and using guilt only undermines our ability to teach and makes our submissives loose critical and hard fought respect.
The misconception from mainstream is that we as Masters and Doms are total pricks and meanies all the time.
The fact of the matter is that NO ONE can be totally rutheless all the time, It takes more strength than one can possibly imagine and our subordinates will loose interest.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:42:36 AM   
trealeon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Well hell's bells... that's just someone unwilling to make a decision (as in, "no, you're not going to visit your family, you're staying right here with me").  I just don't identify that as a "guilt trip" so much as I do someone hoping to manipulate another into making a decision for them (because I assure you, it's happening at other times as well without the guilt). 
 
John


I don't disagree and it also makes for a misrable relationship dynamic as well. Definitely something I would not repeat and I definitely learned from it.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:47:50 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I see holding someone accountable for their actions, as completely different from an emtional maninulation intended to provoke a guilt trip.  In my opinion, when someone begins to use coercive methods to get their way, there is something wrong.  It ranks right up there with the Quid Pro Quo type of emotional manipulation.  I don't think some things make for good barter.  When ones emotional stability is being fucked with in that manner, it just makes for an emotionally unstable dynamic, at least - that is the way I see it.


Ditto to that. Is it called *bottoming from the top*?....grins.

Usually if this happens, it's because the person making the unpleasant decision doesn't want to deal with the result.

agirl




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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 7:58:50 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad
I'm curious if people find guilt trips to be an acceptable or unacceptable dynamic in their D/s relationships.  I want to explore this topic because some people are into mental or emotional manipulation.

Rover I quite disagree- I don't think you need to experience guilt in order to know what's good or bad or right or wrong.  I can understand why you come to that conclusion but I personally can say that while I experience guilt very rarely in my life, I do the good and right thing most of the time.

Especially on a spiritual level, guilt is a complete waste of time and energy.  You think you did the wrong thing, fine, make a new choice next time.  You did the wrong thing on purpose, then you accept the consequences.  Guilt need not be applied.

So for me guilt isn't so much "unacceptable" as it is "completely without use."

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 8:16:25 AM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Rover I quite disagree- I don't think you need to experience guilt in order to know what's good or bad or right or wrong. 


There's a difference between knowing what is right and wrong, and doing what is right.  Now I understand that people make that choice based upon many reasons.  But one of those reasons is knowing they will feel some level of guilt for having done the wrong thing.  If that were not the case, then human nature is such that they would choose to do the wrong thing whenever it benefitted them, and they concluded that the chances of being caught were slim.
 
I have had many instances in which a girl of mine confessed to some indiscretion because she felt guilty about it.  Not because she was caught.  Not because there was even a likelihood of being caught.  But because she had knowingly done the wrong thing, and confessed to it.
 
I think that's common behavior in those with a conscience (ie: a sense of guilt).  And I know anyone lacking that element is an incompatible partner for me.

John

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 8:31:38 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad

I'm curious if people find guilt trips to be an acceptable or unacceptable dynamic in their D/s relationships.  I want to explore this topic because some people are into mental or emotional manipulation.




I love a good mind fuck; I even like it when I am played mentally/emotinally. Guilt trips though...those are just cruel and in my mind are used by men/women who don't believe that they need to take responsibility for their life or their actions. 

Personally, I am kind of curious as to how you would come to the conclusion that a guilt trip equals mental/emotional manipulation.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 8:40:00 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		Guilt isn't something someone does -to- you... it's something you do to yourself. As such, I tend to discourage guilt-tripping, but I realize that I can't always control how other people react to things I say.

As a tool for control, though -- nope. Not interested. I'm just as happy to say "No, you can't do that." or "Make sure you do that" and handle mis-steps with "This wasn't taken care of to my satisfaction and this is what you will do to correct it." No guilt-tripping and no laying on the guilt to manipulate someone -- just say what I want, and be direct about it.

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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 8:50:00 AM   
RealSub58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DogGoneBad

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
In what context?

in any context that involves mental or emotional manipulation.


First off, This is something I mentally or emotionally cannot handle because of my past.  Same as humiliation and my Sir wouldn't harm me this way. Manipulation is an interesting word because (from a most recent debate) control can be part of manipulation but for the most part manipulation is seen as negative as it is to the advantage of the one doling it out.  So motive is a big part of why you want another person on a guilt trip, which if used incorrectly or inappropriately can lead to shame.  This is how guilt can surface: Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.
Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.
 The practice of manipulating or the state of being manipulated.
The skillful use of the hands, words. . . .
The devious management of some situation, especially for one's own advantage.  Manipulate
To move, arrange or operate something using the hands
To influence, manage, direct, control or tamper with something to one's own advantage 
To handle and move a body part, either as an examination or for a therapeutic purpose 



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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 9:04:02 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Guilt isn't something someone does -to- you... it's something you do to yourself. As such, I tend to discourage guilt-tripping, but I realize that I can't always control how other people react to things I say.

As a tool for control, though -- nope. Not interested. I'm just as happy to say "No, you can't do that." or "Make sure you do that" and handle mis-steps with "This wasn't taken care of to my satisfaction and this is what you will do to correct it." No guilt-tripping and no laying on the guilt to manipulate someone -- just say what I want, and be direct about it.


Exactly.  Guilt-tripping seems a feable attempt to wrest control from another through manipulative means, the other option is a direct exercise of authority. 

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 9:12:44 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
I think that's common behavior in those with a conscience (ie: a sense of guilt).  And I know anyone lacking that element is an incompatible partner for me.

John

I'd prefer a partner who told me because they knew it was the right thing to do for them and us in the relationship.   It's also why I don't get into dynamics like absolution or punishment to enable the person to feel cleansed.  Guilt may be common, but I don't think that makes it good or necessary or even often relevant to doing the right thing.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 9:45:12 AM   
persephonee


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Status: offline 		~fr~
i dont particularly feel guilty about anything recently in my life...i have made poor decisions or things have not worked out the way i would have liked or mistakes are made...but pretty much, i try to make the best decision i can at the time, based on the information i have at the time, and let it go from there....

As far as guilt trips...or emotional manipulation in relationship, it indicates a serious weakness in the persons character who is applying it. In a D/s sense, if a dominant lays a guilt trip on me as a form of changing my behavior or actions...my perception of his strength goes directly out the window and i have yet to see anyone retreive it successfully after that. i dont play that kind of game. At all.

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And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

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Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 9:50:54 AM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
Status: offline 		For me personally they are unaceptable in any situation, not just D\s.
If i have done something wrong deal with it and let it go.
 
I have tended to find that in the past and very recently (a few days ago in fact) when i have been put on a guilt trip it wasn't actually wholely or een partly my fault in the first place. I usually find the other party has fucked up and thinks by guilt tripping me i will bow down and say im in the wrong.
 
Not a useful tool in any walk of life in my opinion.
 

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:04:39 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

A person without guilt has no conscience, and is capable of doing anything.  If a partner of mine does something intentionally unacceptable and doesn't feel guilty about it, that's a sure sign I don't want to have anything to do with them (though in truth, that fatal flaw would show itself long before becoming my partner). 
 
On the other hand, if they do something intentionally wrong and feel guilty about it... good!  And if they do something wrong, feel guilty about it, and I lecture them and it makes them feel more guilty (call it a guilt trip if you want)... tough!  I want to make sure I'm understood, that we have a common appreciation for what was wrong, why it was wrong, and how it's not going to happen again.
 
They did the crime, now do the time without whining about some guilt trip.
 
John

I agree with you, yet if someone is using that as a tool to manipulate as part of their bag of tricks. That is not a good idea.

I don't think you meant that though, of course.


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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:33:06 AM   
ftmyersartist


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Status: offline 		For me personally, I find no use for guilt. Guilt constrains one to a course of action based on remorse . .  .I much prefer understanding . . . knowing why something happened and then making sure it does not happen again. It may seem like a fine differential between the two but, one holds you in place with negetive and one allows you to grow and choose to be in the place because you want to be there. I have always foudn the later a much more productive thing.

Unless of course you are talking catholic guilt and then it's just good fun and deserves punishment.

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:41:40 AM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ftmyersartist
Unless of course you are talking catholic guilt and then it's just good fun and deserves punishment.


Okay, I am STILL kicking myself for eating something that made me feel ill at that party where you were... spanking and whatnot. You are NOT helping matters.  *sigh*

I've been trying to think of the last thing I felt guilt about... and I think it was about not being honest with myself about how I felt about my husband before we got married.  I knew how I felt, and I talked myself out of the truth.


Cali


_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:43:05 AM   
agirl


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Status: offline 		It's relevant insomuch as it has a bearing on the WHY and the HOW you have decided what the *right* thing is.

agirl

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Guilt trips - 11/27/2008 10:47:53 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trealeon

For instance, if my slave wanted to spend time with her family... I would lay a "guilt trip on her" to convince her that she was not being a good slave by going and spending time with her and say things like "obviously you don't love me or care about being my slave if you're just going to run off and be with your family." or something along those lines. Then she feels guilty and stays. I have to admit, I've done this a few times in the past but I realized how unhealthy it was and don't now.


Yeah, that's pretty crappy and wouldn't work for me, to be honest. I was guilted most of my life and that stuff doesn't work for me anymore. In fact it makes me see the "guilter" as weak, dishonest, manipulative and not worth my energy. I feel badly enough when I've done something wrong, and what is most effective for me is to apologize, do what I can to remedy the situation, and figure out how to avoid the mistake in the future. If he tried to capitalize on my guilt I wouldn't be with him long as it would just frustrate and annoy me too much.

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