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Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 8:57:30 AM   
Evility


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Status: offline 		I was listening to some talk radio the other morning and the host read a letter that was written by a restaurant owner in San Francisco. His suggestion basically was to let the UAW bail out or assist Detroit with their woes. Loan them the money from the UAW pension fund or whatever other sources they have. Who has a more vested interested in Detroit staying afloat and if the UAW won't invest in them, why should the American taxpayer?

Seems like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Edited to correct the title.


< Message edited by Evility -- 11/23/2008 8:58:31 AM >
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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 8:59:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I was listening to some talk radio the other morning and the host read a letter that was written by a restaurant owner in San Francisco. His suggestion basically was to let the UAW bail out or assist Detroit with their woes. Loan them the money from the UAW pension fund or whatever other sources they have. Who has a more vested interested in Detroit staying afloat and if the UAW won't invest in them, why should the American taxpayer?

Seems like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Edited to correct the title.



Hmmm Wouldn't this be going dangerously close to a worker's cooperative?

There are some strange leftwing ideas coming out of America at the moment.

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 9:00:15 AM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I was listening to some talk radio the other morning and the host read a letter that was written by a restaurant owner in San Francisco. His suggestion basically was to let the UAW bail out or assist Detroit with their woes. Loan them the money from the UAW pension fund or whatever other sources they have. Who has a more vested interested in Detroit staying afloat and if the UAW won't invest in them, why should the American taxpayer?

Seems like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Edited to correct the title.



Brilliant.

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 9:05:31 AM   
caringlord


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Status: offline 		I tend to be pretty economically conservative as a general rule.  That being said the nagging thought that I might be wrong on this that I usually have is nowhere to be found.  I may not be able to tell you the right answer, but a govt bail out is the wrong one.  Any place where a laid off employee makes 95% of their working salary seems like a waste to lay off.  The things that are killing the big 3 are threefold.  They're making cars nobody wanted, and they have the massive legacy costs incurred by all their agreements with the UAW, and the fact that the executives are being paid obscenely massive amounts of money.  The first is easy (get someone with a brain to figure out what cars people will buy).  The second is really only approachable by bankruptcy.  The third...well when you do a bad job you make LESS money.  Get with it, you fire them, and hire good folks at half the salary.  Let them earn the big pay if they want it.



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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 9:06:01 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		I see some problems with using Pension fund monies in such an enterprise.There are retiree's who would have every right to go balistic...

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 11:08:28 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I see some problems with using Pension fund monies in such an enterprise.There are retiree's who would have every right to go balistic...

Will it be any worse than when they lose their pension fund monies because the UAW won't lift a finger to help the goose they demand continue to lay golden eggs?


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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 2:24:10 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I was listening to some talk radio the other morning and the host read a letter that was written by a restaurant owner in San Francisco. His suggestion basically was to let the UAW bail out or assist Detroit with their woes. Loan them the money from the UAW pension fund or whatever other sources they have. Who has a more vested interested in Detroit staying afloat and if the UAW won't invest in them, why should the American taxpayer?

Seems like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Edited to correct the title.



Or sell the companies to the employees and make them stakeholders.

A kind of industrial socialism...

Hell of a lot better than the forced socialism, being shoved down our throats by neo-conservative economic policy.



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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 2:47:15 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I see some problems with using Pension fund monies in such an enterprise.There are retiree's who would have every right to go balistic...

Will it be any worse than when they lose their pension fund monies because the UAW won't lift a finger to help the goose they demand continue to lay golden eggs?

Correct me if I'm wrong here,but aren't UAW pension funds seperate from and protected by the Pension Reform Act?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 2:58:33 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		My guess is that if the automaker bailout fails completely the big 3 will merge and/or file bankruptcy and/or be bought out by foreign competition.

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:08:03 PM   
masterBruce


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Status: offline 		the UAW  is the reson the car makers cant sell a car

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:09:59 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		So the management at the Big 3 are not in any way culpable....interesting.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:12:38 PM   
Aileen1968


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So the management at the Big 3 are not in any way culpable....interesting.


Well that's most likely it.  The American car industry is getting fucked over by two sources.   
CEO + UAW = bend over

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:16:24 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Have you any evidence to back up your claim?

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:22:12 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Show proof of that to back up your claims, Argumentation 101.

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"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:30:01 PM   
Naga


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Correct me if I'm wrong here,but aren't UAW pension funds seperate from and protected by the Pension Reform Act?


Yes..... sort of. The executives is rather overprotected, a ballpark figure of 110%, but the workers is like 80%. And they would loose other benefits, like falling to a health care plan that would only cover 80% of care costs.

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:35:29 PM   
Naga


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So the management at the Big 3 are not in any way culpable....interesting.


I doubt anyone is saying that, but the union has be car companies (i.e the executives) over a barrel. It is one reason American car companies can't compete. If you look at the costs the unions add to the cost of a car, it makes American cars on average about $5K more expensive than a similar car from a foreign manufacturer. If you have two cars with the same features and build level side by side with one being $5K cheaper, which one will you buy? A no brainer, right?

The car companies need to go into chapter 11, just like any other failing business. The only reason this is getting any air time is because of how much political power the unions have. They are screaming for bread and circuses through the politicians they have purchased who now owe them political favors.

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:38:19 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

I was listening to some talk radio the other morning and the host read a letter that was written by a restaurant owner in San Francisco. His suggestion basically was to let the UAW bail out or assist Detroit with their woes. Loan them the money from the UAW pension fund or whatever other sources they have. Who has a more vested interested in Detroit staying afloat and if the UAW won't invest in them, why should the American taxpayer?

Seems like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Edited to correct the title.



Or sell the companies to the employees and make them stakeholders.

A kind of industrial socialism...

Hell of a lot better than the forced socialism, being shoved down our throats by neo-conservative economic policy.




United Airlines tried that.

The unions gave up to 25% wage concessions in exchange for 55% of the company's stock.

United still went bankrupt eight years later, wiping out the value of that stock to its employee-owners.  Not to mention dumping their pension plan on the PBGC which devalued the workers retirement benefits to 40% or less of their original value.

Given that history, I don't see the UAW taking that chance.


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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:41:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So the management at the Big 3 are not in any way culpable....interesting.


I doubt anyone is saying that, but the union has be car companies (i.e the executives) over a barrel. It is one reason American car companies can't compete. If you look at the costs the unions add to the cost of a car, it makes American cars on average about $5K more expensive than a similar car from a foreign manufacturer. If you have two cars with the same features and build level side by side with one being $5K cheaper, which one will you buy? A no brainer, right?

The car companies need to go into chapter 11, just like any other failing business. The only reason this is getting any air time is because of how much political power the unions have. They are screaming for bread and circuses through the politicians they have purchased who now owe them political favors.


I absolutely love the idea of the UAW bailing out / becoming owners of the Detroit 3.

If the unions think it's such a great idea to bail out Detroit...they've got about 15 billion in their pension funds...they could make up any difference with a 3 year cut in wages....they absolutely should bail the car companies out!

Then they can finally get exactly the leadership they've been dreaming about...and no more of that silly 27 million $$$ a year compensation for the top dogs....surely they've got some brilliant leaders that would do that for $125,000.00 a year.

Maybe they could get that PhD they have running the union to be the head of everything....I can tell he's smart....in his press conference on Friday, when talking about ways to get car sales going again, he used the word "incentatives" 7 times.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/23/2008 3:46:51 PM >

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:42:57 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		That is a very good point, rule.  The basic problems of the US auto industry have to be addresssed for any progress to be made.  Changing the factories over to more fuel-efficient models is not going to be cheap. 

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Let the UAW bail out the Big Three - 11/23/2008 3:46:45 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga

The car companies need to go into chapter 11, just like any other failing business. The only reason this is getting any air time is because of how much political power the unions have. They are screaming for bread and circuses through the politicians they have purchased who now owe them political favors.


If only the automakers themselves had some influence over our politicians. 

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 11/23/2008 4:19:43 PM >

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