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Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 2:05:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		With all the obvious euphoria in the US (unless you are a Repbulican) about Obama and the change he promises, assuming he gets elected, has he set himself up to fail? Most would-be Presidents seem to promise change and never do but it seems, no one really expects them to deliver change. With the US economy and domestic and foreign policy in tatters, people really seem to expect change from Obama.   However, America will still have the same powerful establishment, the same powerful interest groups and the same social forces that will resist change, has any American President the power to bring about fundemental change rather than just a superficial feeling of change and if so, can that president be Obama?

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 2:27:31 AM   
FullfigRIMaam


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Status: offline 		I think the current standards are so low that speaking english, knowing how to say nuclear, where Afghanistan is, not falling on his face or throwing up on anyone would constitute an upward move as a president.   Your mileage may vary of course.   M

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 2:50:59 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		Well MC, that is the funny thing about American politics....we go through this once every 4 years or 8 in the case of a popular President.
I was in college when Reagan was elected and the first time around I remember all the Republicans seeing an uninterrupted reign of their party.
It lasted 8 years for Reagan and another 4 for George the 1st. Then they ran into this small state Southern Governor who connected to people
and seemed to better understand the people he was talking to. Bill Clinton organized a better campaign and understood the populace and for 8
years the country did pretty well. He was as good a "politician" as I have ever seen. Obama (if he wins) will inherit a mess, if he is successful at
all at turning this economic mess around, restores our position in the eyes of the world(some really don't care about that part, some do) he will
be a success. If he fails miserably in the eyes of the people (Jimmy Carter....great man had no understanding of Washington, so not so good as President)
he'll be gone and we'll move on to the next one. So, some of the the same issues will be here in 4 years, same structure etc. and we will do it again.
Obama has proven to be a great campaigner, an unbelievable communicator and what I hope is an extraordinary President.....because we need one
more now than perhaps ever.A lot of the change has to start much lower than the President but the President must lead the country into that direction...
The economy and health care MUST change....if he accomplishes those things....then he has done well....

< Message edited by SilverMark -- 10/31/2008 2:52:03 AM >

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 4:47:37 AM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

I think the current standards are so low that speaking english, knowing how to say nuclear, where Afghanistan is, not falling on his face or throwing up on anyone would constitute an upward move as a president.   Your mileage may vary of course.   M


if you just inflate your tires, your mileage will improve, across the 59 states, er, um, ehhhh, and iran is a possible small inconvenience, read your bibles, but you will be insulted for clinging to it, or your guns.   and it is okay that the gas prices went up, they just went up too quickly.  ahhh, errr, umm, what, they are going down now, what's up with that?  i guess the windfall profits tax did not go into place in time.

i guess i could be a complete idiot, if there weren't a few pieces missing.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 5:23:03 AM   
candystripper


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Status: offline 		No, I don't think Obama will 'fail'.  Not in the sense that he'll be ineffective, as so many seem to perceive Carter was.  He'll most likely have a Democratic majority in both sides of the Congress and be able to pass legislation he finds palatable, if not exactly what he has promised.
 
Actually I look forward to a era of great movement...forward, I think...circa the 1960's and JFK.
 
candystripper 

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 5:37:15 AM   
Sanity


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Not quite - H. Ross Perot split the vote that time. Bill Clinton didn't have a majority of votes cast either time he was elected...

quote:

It lasted 8 years for Reagan and another 4 for George the 1st. Then they ran into this small state Southern Governor who connected to people


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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 5:43:53 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		He'll change things like Jimmy Carter changed things, except he'll be more disastrous than Carter was, and so he'll be a one-term wonder.

Then he'll spend the rest of his life trying to build up some kind of a legacy...

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

With all the obvious euphoria in the US (unless you are a Repbulican) about Obama and the change he promises, assuming he gets elected, has he set himself up to fail? Most would-be Presidents seem to promise change and never do but it seems, no one really expects them to deliver change. With the US economy and domestic and foreign policy in tatters, people really seem to expect change from Obama.   However, America will still have the same powerful establishment, the same powerful interest groups and the same social forces that will resist change, has any American President the power to bring about fundemental change rather than just a superficial feeling of change and if so, can that president be Obama?


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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 5:51:30 AM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

With all the obvious euphoria in the US (unless you are a Repbulican) about Obama and the change he promises, assuming he gets elected, has he set himself up to fail? Most would-be Presidents seem to promise change and never do but it seems, no one really expects them to deliver change. With the US economy and domestic and foreign policy in tatters, people really seem to expect change from Obama.   However, America will still have the same powerful establishment, the same powerful interest groups and the same social forces that will resist change, has any American President the power to bring about fundemental change rather than just a superficial feeling of change and if so, can that president be Obama?



From my perspective, should Obama be elected, he will be the most polarizing and revolutionary President in the history of our country. We WILL get "change"...no question about that....but not the fantasy of Camelot.
We have seen the results of a liberal Congress changing the rules to benefit a class, and I refer to the dramatic changes in regulating the GSE's by Barney Frank, Dodd, Cuomo when he headed Housing, to remove all demands for credit checks, salary checks, ability to pay in the mortgage market.  Everyone benefited but the working slob who pays his taxes and struggles until today to pay keep his mortgage payment current. 
An Obama Administration, with the luxury of a democrat controlled Congress, will push through legislation that will create a welfare state out of our country in a way that even FDR would never contemplate.  Obama offers "change" and the people are disgusted with the way things have been going in this country...and don't forget Congress has one of the lowest popularity in the history of that number, about a third of the low Bush rating!.
The government does not give anything without a price to be paid in terms of more power centralized in the hands of Washington, D.C., more rules and regulations governing our lives, and gradually, an erosion of our freedoms.
When the public begins to really learn that the years of Obama's involvement with radical individuals and radical organizations was done with real meaning and purpose by this charismatic leader. And don't forget Michelle either in this picture, she will be an even bigger influence in appointments, in legislative proposals than Hillary could ever was or hoped to be with Bill.  Bill Clinton also had to work with a republican Congress which be lived in its core conservative principles.
Obama is not just a turn to the left for change..he represents a revolution in thinking as to what America should be, how our lives should be governed  and will lead to a reaction from the right that could spell the end of our democracy as we know it...Is it over the top..am I crazy...yea...like the people all through history who followed charismatic leaders and wind up losing their freedom. 
I lived through the 1960's and the Weathermen, militia groups brandishing rifles, lunatic fringe of the left...and can see a reaction from the right as violent, and it scares the hell out of me.  We made it through the 1960' by the skin of our teeth, as we survived the threat of communism in the 1930's, an ideology that appealed to so many.
When people get frustrated anything is possible...together with very difficult economic times, nothing is "over the top"! I'm not sure we will come out the other end of an Obama Administration with a country that we take for granted today.
I wish I had your belief in the "the powerful establishment and powerful interest groups that will resist change".  How many times in history have powerful groups believed they could make use of a charismatic leader for their purposes..and found out that it was THEIR door that was the first to be knocked down.  You need go no further than history post WW1 to see how that turned out.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 6:01:54 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Has Obama set himself up to fail ?

Possibly, but I hope not, I hope he is what he says he is, but if he does fail in some of his aims, one hopes he might have at least started the ball rolling so to speak, so that subsequent presidents can take up where he left off and move the world in a better direction.

No one is perfect and though someone might have the best of intentions, we have to remember we are all human and therefore prone to failure in some of our goals. But what one has to remember is that failures are not absolute, they can be built upon and perhaps a new way sought to achieve a similar aim or better.

What I do hope is not the case, is that Obama is being propped up to be president with the hope or even the intention of letting him fall once he is in power and thus send a message to the population that the old ways are the best ways.

If Obama is elected and survives his presidency and creates some positive change in the U.S. that is a welcome indication that perhaps the old rot is rotting away.


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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 10:00:01 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I don't think he CAN fail. 

The current mess is squarely blamed on Bush and the neocons.  Anything Obama does will be seen as cleaning up Bush's mess.

The markets have lost all confidence in the current administration.  An Obama calmness would reassure the markets.

Our image abroad will improve immediately.  Other governments will be more willing to work with us.

His economic plans will be scaled way back.  That will be blamed on the turd that Bushonomics left him.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 10:22:32 AM   
FullfigRIMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
i guess i could be a complete idiot, if there weren't a few pieces missing.
Thank God for the freedom to say what we believe, even if it makes one look like an a disabled person with a short attention span, or is that attention deficit disorder?   M

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"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 10:30:25 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Has Obama set himself up to fail?


Maybe - however based upon his campaign platform I'm sure he'll have a tax payer funded government bail out ready for his failure; especially if he gets a party majority in Congress.

Failure is to be rewarded isn't it? Only successes earn the scorn of Obama and his constituency.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 10:59:10 AM   
FullfigRIMaam


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Status: offline 		As I said, the very worst he can do is be like the current administration, and even than, his english and demeanor is better.
Have you missed the current tax payer bail outs, or will only hate them if a democrat does it?   M

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"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 11:10:12 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMaam

As I said, the very worst he can do is be like the current administration, and even than, his english and demeanor is better.


Well - as long as you've set the bar on how you define success based upon this comment you'll be happy. Since he has already adopted and plans on sending out another one of President Bush's 'economic stimulus' checks; I'd say he's will on his way to meeting your anticipated goal. Although I wonder why you don't expect and think you deserve better?

quote:

Have you missed the current tax payer bail outs, or will only hate them if a democrat does it?
Nope - I don't think I missed paying for one of them. I didn't get a check but I'm not one to complain. Besides, some of those checks came to my business in the form of payments. Better to get many than to get only one - I say. In that regard I hope Obama keeps following the President's programs and 'keeps 'em coming'!

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 11:21:15 AM   
FullfigRIMaam


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quote:

Since he has already adopted and plans on sending out another one of President Bush's 'economic stimulus' checks; I'd say he's will on his way to meeting your anticipated goal. Although I wonder why you don't expect and think you deserve better?
These aren't mine or Obama's goals/expectations.   My point was/is, that no matter how poorly he does, he'll still do better than where we are.   I know, it is a pain in the ass to have to pay taxes;  I too would like to get every dime of my money; alas I like having roads and uhms with food to eat (even if they aren't my own).    Why do I not see you bitching about all the tax incentives to corporations or the banks bail out to buy other banks?   Do you really only pick on people you feel you can beat financially, or is it my perception?    M

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"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 11:46:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Why do I not see you bitching about all the tax incentives to corporations or the banks bail out to buy other banks?   Do you really only pick on people you feel you can beat financially, or is it my perception? 
Strictly your perception, there are plenty of posts consistent with my blanket position that ALL failures - corporate or individual - should reap the reward of failure their actions and plans generated. Banks, auto manufacturers, financial institutions, insurance companies, or frenzy purchasing individual consumers; it makes no difference.
quote:

like having roads and uhms with food to eat (even if they aren't my own)

I never complain about the taxes I pay for the roads. Although I deduct fuel as a business expense from my tax I pay the tax at the pump for each and every gallon consumed without complaint. It is one of those disproportionate to income taxes that I believe should be abolished and replaced with an across the board consumption tax more equitable and not 'deductible'. However, the lawyers and tax accountants lobbies have paid too much PAC money to ever have that happen.

However, I think its a parents responsibility to feed their children NOT the governments. We do not share in the belief of enabling a parent to abdicate that responsibility.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 11:53:50 AM   
FullfigRIMaam


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quote:

I think its a parents responsibility to feed their children NOT the governments. We do not share in the belief of enabling a parent to abdicate that responsibility.
Why would you be ascribing the opposing position to me?   Have you ever had reason to believe I don't take responsibility for mine or that I would encourage anyone to leave/not support his/her uhms?   If it were up to me, and all things were equal, any parent who has one and cannot support him/her, should be forbidden from having anymore without first aquiring a means to support them.   On the other hand, I believe that once they are born, it is our responsibility as a society to not let them die from starvation or lack of healthcare/basics.
Mine lives with and is supported by moi.   M

< Message edited by FullfigRIMaam -- 10/31/2008 12:01:07 PM >

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"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 12:05:06 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If it were up to me, and all things were equal, any parent who has one and cannot support him/her, should be forbidden from having anymore without first aquiring a means to support them.
Here we are in complete agreement although I can't see that position reconciling with an Obama supporter  
quote:

On the other hand, I believe that once they are born, it is our responsibility as a society to not let them die from starvation or lack of healthcare/basics.
That's what charities are for - NOT governments. At least not the one that is supposed to be governed through the US Constitution.

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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 12:10:28 PM   
FullfigRIMaam


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Status: offline 		In a perfect world, the next president would be brilliant with the added awesomeness of agreeing with all of my positions...  But even I might be wrong, and not know what is best for the rest of the nation and the world.   He has great qualities, and is humble enough to get smart people around him to advise him;  I like that in a world leader.   
quote:

That's what charities are for - NOT governments. At least not the one that is supposed to be governed through the US Constitution.
On this, we disagree.   M

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"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
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RE: Has Obama set himself up to fail? - 10/31/2008 12:10:56 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		just round up all the homeless, deadbeats, users, losers and welfare peeps and non taxpayers, home forclosure and bankrupt people and kill em....then you can not worry about anyone taking YOUR money....ever.




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