RE: Iraqi government (Full Version)

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Real_Trouble -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 3:51:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
 
I remember you and others saying how the cost of oil was a true reflection of supply and demand…Now we see it was just speculation...so I do find it hard to believe all you say now.
 


I'm very curious as to how you'd support this argument and why you believe it.




kdsub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 3:53:17 PM)

Perhaps a serious threat of the plan described above would result in a massive reduction in energy prices world wide in an attempt of oil producers to stall the plan.

Butch




kdsub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 4:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
 
I remember you and others saying how the cost of oil was a true reflection of supply and demand…Now we see it was just speculation...so I do find it hard to believe all you say now.
 


I'm very curious as to how you'd support this argument and why you believe it.



I personally don't have to support it...many economists have been saying that for the last month...They could be wrong...I could be wrong...but just looking at the history of oil costs for the last year in relation to supply… then using common sense should give you the answer.

Butch




Sanity -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 4:00:45 PM)

Speculation feeds off of supply and demand. I haven't changed what I've said about supply and demand, of  course that principle still controls the market. My main point in response to Butch was that with the global oil market being what it is, we cannot effectively isolate where we get out oil from, as there will always be competition for any oil we purchase from other outside markets - as it should be. Simply stated, it's like there is one vast oil tank that the entire world's producers pump into, and that all of the world's oil buyers draw out of...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
 
I remember you and others saying how the cost of oil was a true reflection of supply and demand…Now we see it was just speculation...so I do find it hard to believe all you say now.
 


I'm very curious as to how you'd support this argument and why you believe it.





kdsub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 4:04:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Speculation feeds off of supply and demand. I haven't changed what I've said about supply and demand, of  course that principle still controls the market. My main point in response to Butch was that with the global oil market being what it is, we cannot effectively isolate where we get out oil from, as there will always be competition for any oil we purchase from other outside markets - as it should be. Simply stated, it's like there is one vast oil tank that the entire world's producers pump into, and that all of the world's oil buyers draw out of...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
 
I remember you and others saying how the cost of oil was a true reflection of supply and demand…Now we see it was just speculation...so I do find it hard to believe all you say now.
 


I'm very curious as to how you'd support this argument and why you believe it.




I do understand what you are saying Sanity...but it is old thinking...the very type of thinking that has got us in this mess. It is time to try something new instead of bowing on hands and knees to the God of free enterprise.

I'm not talking politics here...just new ideas. I don't care if Republicans or Democrats come up with the ideas...or if they match mine…we just need NEW ideas not follow failed ones.

Butch




Sanity -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 4:08:42 PM)


Well, I guess that I just don't understand your proposal then. I am all for new energy like clean coal and nuclear, and I think we should have been on that ball a long time ago. Geothermal may hold more promise than people realize, and Dirk Kempthorne is expanding on that idea greatly, and I hope that we get to see some of his proposals come to fruition. But right now, fundamentally, we need more oil because a lot of people will be hurting very badly if we neglect to act soon. We've seen the writing on the wall already. Are we going to heed it? That is my main concern.




Real_Trouble -> RE: Iraqi government (10/27/2008 9:52:17 PM)

Oil prices are a complex interplay of multiple factors.  Speculation is but one small part.  If you listen to truly intelligent economists ( I was speaking to someone who won a Nobel prize in economics about oil prices earlier today ), you don't get one part answers from them on the topic.

Key factors:

- Highly inelastic demand, or in plain English, major changes in oil prices don't seem to do a lot to reduce oil consumption compared to if, say, coca-cola suddenly went to $10 bucks a can.
- Somewhat fixed short-term supply, and possibly long-term supply.  There's just not a lot more "easy" oil to be extracted around the world.  It's not like we can double our supply in a year if we decide we want to use more, or if demand increases.
- Increasing demand due to continued reliance on oil-based technologies and growth in emerging markets.  In other words, more people want oil, and we keep building infrastructure that uses it while limiting other options, like coal or nuclear power.  That's not to comment on the viability of these options (there are many opinions and I won't touch on that here), but just to say we unequivocally keep making gasoline and oil using products.
- Speculation, but more so, a flow of money into commodities as they were considered an "asset class".  When more people want to purchase the same amount of a good, price goes up!  So to a point, the speculation in oil futures was more a facet of too many people entering the market.  On the upside, now that people are realizing we might be in a recession and demand for oil might not be as strong as they thought, people are exiting the market just as fast.  Speculation tends to exacerbate price swings, but it's not responsible for underlying supply and demand, and if you have enough market players, you can't have price-fixing cartels, either.  Anyone who was claiming there were secret cabals fixing the price of oil needs to look closely at the losses people have taken over the past few months.

The bottom line is this:

The long term dynamics have not changed.  Either oil prices will increase, on average over long periods of time, as demand increases and supply does not keep up, or we need to transition to other forms of energy.

It really does all come back to supply and demand.  Not buying oil from one specific country just means that other people will, and that suppliers, knowing we won't buy from that one country, will probably charge us a higher price to buy theirs.  Someone will still buy that oil; unless you could convince all countries in the world at the same time to boycott Iraq, it will have no effect.  You can't ignore the other players in the game, and there are a lot of them.

So if you want to suggest a way out of the problem, you have to go right back to the root of the problem, which is the demand for oil.  How do you plan to reduce that?  Re-shuffling the deck doesn't change the cards in it, after all.  There has to be a legitimate plan to replace energy from oil with energy from something else, or to dramatically reduce our energy consumption overall (or both).




meatcleaver -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 10:01:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

But right now, fundamentally, we need more oil because a lot of people will be hurting very badly if we neglect to act soon. We've seen the writing on the wall already. Are we going to heed it? That is my main concern.



If Americans are hurting because they need more oil, they are only hurting in the same way a heroin addict hurts when they need another fix. Americans consume on average, twice as much oil as the average European and the EU estimate Europeans waste 30% of their oil.Western European and American standard of living are on par and the average American commutes the same distance to work as the average European so the US must be wasting enormous amounts of oil.




kdsub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 11:48:39 AM)

People aren’t any different here then Europe...we fill or basic needs...

Surely you don’t think we stoke our furnaces to 90 degrees in the winter and air to 60 do you.

Much has been made of big SUV’s... that is a small portion of out transportation. We sure aren’t drinking the stuff.

Hey maybe it is all the grease in McDonald hamburgers.

We don’t make any more money then you do so we can’t afford any more luxuries then you do and can’t afford driving all over Christ creation.

What is the reason…seriously?  Could it be the lack of a comprehensive mass transit system?

There has to be a reason…and its not because we are any more wasteful then Europe.

Butch




Real_Trouble -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 4:03:58 PM)

There's a few problems with comparing US vs. Western Europe in terms of oil consumption; the most significant of those are distance (we have states larger than countries) where Americans require more travel to reach things like work / stores / etc than Europeans, and a lack of public transit to leverage an economy of scale for transportation.  It's hard to blame people for not taking non-existent or non-functional trains and buses.

With that said, I think the reason something like SUV's draw so much ire is that they are pure waste.  Something more efficient, more effective, and most importantly, readily available can do everything an SUV does and do it better.

Yet people buy the SUV.

It is an icon of pure waste, and for that, it gets lambasted (justifiably, I suspect).




kdsub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 6:30:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

There's a few problems with comparing US vs. Western Europe in terms of oil consumption; the most significant of those are distance (we have states larger than countries) where Americans require more travel to reach things like work / stores / etc than Europeans, and a lack of public transit to leverage an economy of scale for transportation.  It's hard to blame people for not taking non-existent or non-functional trains and buses.

With that said, I think the reason something like SUV's draw so much ire is that they are pure waste.  Something more efficient, more effective, and most importantly, readily available can do everything an SUV does and do it better.

Yet people buy the SUV.

It is an icon of pure waste, and for that, it gets lambasted (justifiably, I suspect).



I think alone the same lines as you...but meatcleaver is saying the commute to work is close to the same in Europe as the US.
I have done no research on that but I find it hard to believe knowing the density of population in Europe compared to the US.

If they are close to the same then it must be what type of transportation we are each using. That is why I think mass transit is the difference. If that is the case I wonder how practical mass transit is in America with our vast suburbs surrounding cities systems.

Our suburb type system is only practical when large areas are available for expansion with relatively large populations. Other wise the switch from rural to city populations and the ability to expand from a centered area. I don’t thank that is possible in most of Europe because of the fiefdoms and population densities.

Butch




piratecommander -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 7:32:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081025/ts_nm/us_iraq_raid;_ylt=AmM2KAxW7M3.mWexKYDCNDJh24cA

Why are we still there?  They are breaking ties with the US over raid.   We have lost over 4,000 troops, and they turn on us?  We need our folks back home. 
 
Regards, MissSCD



Killing civilians invariably leaves the remaining live ones less happy than they were,when you repeat the process routinely,the remaining live ones eventually start considering the benefits (or lack thereof) of your presence and start paying close attention to the facts rather than the propaganda.Are they "turning" or are they "getting wise to it" ?




MissSCD -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 8:37:37 PM)

Nothing you said just made sence.  Maybe I am tired, frankly the wording of your posts scare me a little.
We have lost too many lives in that War, and our economy is crumbling because of it. 
We cannot afford that war.
 
Regards, MissSCD

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081025/ts_nm/us_iraq_raid;_ylt=AmM2KAxW7M3.mWexKYDCNDJh24cA

Why are we still there?  They are breaking ties with the US over raid.   We have lost over 4,000 troops, and they turn on us?  We need our folks back home. 
 
Regards, MissSCD



Killing civilians invariably leaves the remaining live ones less happy than they were,when you repeat the process routinely,the remaining live ones eventually start considering the benefits (or lack thereof) of your presence and start paying close attention to the facts rather than the propaganda.Are they "turning" or are they "getting wise to it" ?




Real_Trouble -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 8:45:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble

There's a few problems with comparing US vs. Western Europe in terms of oil consumption; the most significant of those are distance (we have states larger than countries) where Americans require more travel to reach things like work / stores / etc than Europeans, and a lack of public transit to leverage an economy of scale for transportation.  It's hard to blame people for not taking non-existent or non-functional trains and buses.

With that said, I think the reason something like SUV's draw so much ire is that they are pure waste.  Something more efficient, more effective, and most importantly, readily available can do everything an SUV does and do it better.

Yet people buy the SUV.

It is an icon of pure waste, and for that, it gets lambasted (justifiably, I suspect).



I think alone the same lines as you...but meatcleaver is saying the commute to work is close to the same in Europe as the US.
I have done no research on that but I find it hard to believe knowing the density of population in Europe compared to the US.

If they are close to the same then it must be what type of transportation we are each using. That is why I think mass transit is the difference. If that is the case I wonder how practical mass transit is in America with our vast suburbs surrounding cities systems.

Our suburb type system is only practical when large areas are available for expansion with relatively large populations. Other wise the switch from rural to city populations and the ability to expand from a centered area. I don’t thank that is possible in most of Europe because of the fiefdoms and population densities.

Butch


My anecdotal experience indicates this is false.

I'll see if I can dig up something more concrete on it, but having worked in both Europe and the US, and having multiple colleagues who have done the same, a quick straw poll would reveal people on both sides of the pond think the commutes in Europe are significantly shorter and significantly more likely to have public transit available, excepting NYC in the US.




GreedyTop -> RE: Iraqi government (10/28/2008 10:02:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Nothing you said just made sence.  Maybe I am tired, frankly the wording of your posts scare me a little.
We have lost too many lives in that War, and our economy is crumbling because of it. 
We cannot afford that war.
 
Regards, MissSCD

quote:

ORIGINAL: piratecommander

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081025/ts_nm/us_iraq_raid;_ylt=AmM2KAxW7M3.mWexKYDCNDJh24cA

Why are we still there?  They are breaking ties with the US over raid.   We have lost over 4,000 troops, and they turn on us?  We need our folks back home. 
 
Regards, MissSCD



Killing civilians invariably leaves the remaining live ones less happy than they were,when you repeat the process routinely,the remaining live ones eventually start considering the benefits (or lack thereof) of your presence and start paying close attention to the facts rather than the propaganda.Are they "turning" or are they "getting wise to it" ?



Translation: the killing of civilians pisses off the civilians still alive..  When civilians continue to be killed, those still alive eventually start weighing the pros and cons of our continued presence there.  They then will likely start questioning the propaganda theyre being fed (ours and their own 'governments').  ARe they still believing what they're being told? Or are they getting seeing through it?
is that about right, PC?

ETA: I'm not sure what it is about his posts you find 'scary'




piratecommander -> RE: Iraqi government (10/29/2008 1:45:59 AM)

Thanks a lot GT , I couldn't have put it better myself (and clearly didn't)

Probably much less scary wording too.

War is a scary business though and does not come with a guaranteed victory no matter how many die or how much it costs or what quantity of resources are consumed.
In the aftermath of this war it is becoming apparent that a lot of Americans as well as a lot of Iraquis think that Americans should be back home............................but for very different reasons.




meatcleaver -> RE: Iraqi government (10/29/2008 2:03:09 AM)

Stupid unnecessary wars tend to be unwinnable because there usually isn't a coherent strategy which has been evident in Iraq. It was also evident in Vietnam, another needless war, no strategy, lack of support at home and no idea what to do with the palce should you win anyway. American military historians should know this, these were the reasons Britain lost the American war of independence despite being a world superpower at the time. If you are fighting a war, you have to be clear why and what your goals are.




tweedydaddy -> RE: Iraqi government (10/29/2008 2:36:42 AM)

Iraq is an irrelevance to America, it provides little or no oil at all as things stand and there is no point at all in securing the oil as it has to be sold on the open market in any case. Oil in the ground is worth nothing, stop protecting it and the Iraqis will soon take good care of it, it is their bread and butter, it will, as ever got to the highest bidder, which is the USA, so why a single US soldier should die for it is a nonsense. The ruinous cost of this pointless occupation is being borne by the US taxpayer, not the oil companies who are making a fortune out of you by juggling the price.
Sadaam was nothing to do with 911, that was done by Al Quadea and the madmen concerned were mostly Saudi citizens.
Why not ask the bloated cash rich oil kings of Saudia, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar to pay thier own bills and fight their own battles?
Oil is a commodity, not a religion, there is plenty of it still in thjr ground and around the world and new alternatives are coming up every day, no matter who controls it, it will always come up for sale, buy it, don't fight for it. That's the highest cost of all.
All the oil in the world is not worth one dead soldier.




Irishknight -> RE: Iraqi government (10/29/2008 4:45:12 AM)

If we truly were fighting for it, where are all the tankers filled with free oil?  Damn it! I want my tanker full of free oil! 

Let's see.... where to begin with the serious part of my answer.  To the OP, as has been said, this is not the "Iraqi government" but effectively one party. 
To KDSub, stop being afraid of nukular power and learn the truth about it.  There is absolutely NO chance of a Chernobyl style disaster with an American reactor.  We don't run hot enough nor can we to fuel that type of a reaction.  Coal burning plants do more damage to the environment than nukular ones.  Do the research.  Its true.
On the SUV thing, it is popular to bash SUVs because the movie stars do it.  These same "stars" still all seem to own a Hummer and a limo but the sheep follow their words into hating the mom with six kids who drives them around in a Suburban.  They are not pure waste if you need them.  If you drive a gas guzzler like that without reason then apparently, you have more money than someone else and they are going to call you evil for not driving a gay assed Prius.  Oh, and by the way, the hybrid SUVs are already coming out. This one always gets under my skin because self righteous assholes like to pass judgement when they are at the pumps.  They look at my truck and say stuff like, "Bet you wish you had been smart enough to buy one of these."  I angrily respond by reminding them that the money I saved in buying a vehicle that could actually tow a horse trailer filled with draft horses can easily be applied to paying fines for breaking the jaws of self righteous assholes in public.  My lawnmower can tow as much as a Prius.  My vehicle and many others like it were bought because they are needed.  The small minded fail to believe that sometimes these thing are neccessary.
Pirate, keep Greedy translating your posts for you.  You make good points without throwing a temper tantrum or spewing toxic partisan hate.  More people should learn from you.




corysub -> RE: Iraqi government (10/29/2008 5:37:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

On the other hand, it's interesting to see people blame the USA for countless deaths and never bring up the genocide of the Sadaam regime of the Shite'.  I guess the interpretation of genocide for some is like a buffet, you pick and choose the horror palatable to ones agenda.


I don't remember the USA being so concerned when Sadam was a US allie and Rumsfeld was glad handing him. Why wasn't rightwing Americans so concerned about the genocide then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDABe8AOuCQ

I'll answer my own question. Because rightwing Americans are up to their eyes in shitty dealings with abominable regimes when their is something in it for them.


Why does history always begin with the Bush administration?  As far as countries being friendly with others that may also be slime, but whose governments are useful to strategic goals is probably as old as governments on the planet.
I don't think FDR was a friend and fellow traveler of Josef Stalin.  Yet, in fighting Hitler it was important for the USA to send ships to Murmansk, costing thousands of ameican sailors their lives, to aid the communist troops in their fight against facism.
That's how the real world works...not some fantasy or idealistic...one sided approach to politics.  This is what concerns me about Obama..his view of global politics starts with the premise that the USA is wrong, and we have to rebuild our friendships... Really...let the Russian Bear continue to threaten Georgia, the Ukraine, and who know next, and see how fast the smug Euorpean haters of the USA look east towards that statue in the harbor.




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