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Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 6:00:16 AM

DelilahDeb

Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline

A local membership-only dungeon's announcement recently caused a few wandering thoughts to visit my midnight brain. When you bring a guest to one of their play parties, who is not already a member, you vouch for them so that they can become a member of the dungeon. Cool. Obvious, no? But...what does it mean to vouch for someone?

In my world, it means a number of things. First and foremost, that the guest has some *idea* of what it is that they're stepping into! Online BDSM sites are no preparation for real-world munches, much less a play party. (IMNSHO.) Second, it means that the guest is prepared for a party: shower, party/date clothes, unplug the MP3 player, be willing to talk to people, bring a contribution. Third, it means that the person *bringing* the guest knows that this guest can behave hirself to the standards of behavior that obtain in our community. We're an extremely varied crowd, so this includes quite a variety of behaviors, but it shouldn't be a puzzle to the the person sponsoring this guest. And, fourth, it means that the person bringing a truly novice guest will act as the guest's guide to What It Is That We Do.

Totally aside from all that, vouching for someone incorporates responsibility--that the vouch-ee understands the basic expectations of caution or silence or "discretion" (from *discreet,* "to act wisely," and etymologically related to *discrete,* "completely separate"). Of course, that presumes that the vouch-er also understands those expectations.

Once upon a time, individuals travelling to Europe or from Europe or across Europe took with them letters of introduction from someone who knew them to someone that person knew in the destination city or region. Sort of like the 1920s speakeasy vouch of "Joe sent me" that has become a passé joke through the medium of cartoons. But believe me, Scarface and his thugs had special treatment for Joe if that "vouch" turned out to admit Eliot Ness or honest cops.

And the dungeon in question is a commercial dungeon; how much more important is this "vouch" system when a local community's play party is being hosted at a private home?

Lady Delilah Deb

_____________________________

"All acts of love & pleasure are My rituals."
--from the Charge of the Goddess, a Wiccan teaching

Post #: 1

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 6:53:00 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Several disparate thoughts, in no particular order:

1. Generally speaking, those with references believe they have (some) value. Those without them believe they do not (some even claim them to be an "invasion of privacy"). There are exceptions, of course.

2. This topic has caused quite a stir on the boards more than once, and I'm sure LA will find the appropriate links.

3. We do have a group (several in fact, but one that I have membership in) that meets in private homes in our local community. Our rule of thumb is that anyone inviting a guest vouches (in writing, before the meeting) not only to the home owner, but to everyone in our group. And anyone in the group has the right to deny entry (beforehand, of course... to avoid any uncomfortable front door experiences).

4. Our local membership-only dungeon requires that a member in good standing vouch for each potential new member.

5. When I meet someone from out of town that I have a personal interest in, one of the first things I ask is if they are active in their local community. If they are, I ask for references and offer the same in return. I think it's invaluable to establish certain factual details (marital status, relationship status, parental status, working status, etc) before investing time and effort just to find out they've omitted certain important facts about themself.

6. Many of the events I attend require references for registration purposes.

7. When I travel out of town and attend a local munch or workshop, I am always happy to provide references so folks might know who this stranger is (and there's no one stranger than me).

8. Use of references (vouching, by another name) has a long and meaningful historical basis within BDSM. I believe (read, my opinion) that their usage has come under criticism more recently due to "tolerance" run amok and the influx of folks from the internet who feel that it's prejudicial to exclude those without references and don't want to take the time and effort to obtain them for themselves.

9. I believe there are quite a few folks who will take issue with me on this topic (and have done so in the past). And to them I say... ppppfffffftttttt. Respectfully, of course.

John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/23/2008 6:56:24 AM >

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DelilahDeb)

Post #: 2

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 8:01:23 AM

MsAuthoritarian

Posts: 51
Joined: 9/14/2008
Status: offline

1. I am a member of a couple of groups that I had to be “vouched for” and then I had to be interviewed by the owners of the groups (without my knowing at the time it was an interview) prior to my acceptance into the groups.
2. I offer references to prospective slaves and sometimes ask friends of mine to interview them.
3. I have gone to munches for the first time where the owner of the group (and several members) would come over and chat with me then later on slip me an invite to the play party that night. Upon arriving to the play party I would find out that other people were not invited.
4. When having parties at my home strangers are not allowed unless someone vouches for them and when circumstances allow I also chat with the person myself prior to accepting them in my home.
5. I have been invited to formal dinners where other people were excluded.
I have zero issues with someone having to vouch for me, being interviewed, etc. In fact I rather enjoy the groups that will not allow just anyone to walk off the street and join.

~Ms

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 3

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 8:06:16 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

MsAuthoritarian:
I have zero issues with someone having to vouch for me, being interviewed, etc. In fact I rather enjoy the groups that will not allow just anyone to walk off the street and join.

Yup, I'm one of John's "have no references people." That being said, I agree with your sentiment Ms, I see nothing wrong with people wanting some sort of reasonable attestation of who I am before allowing me into a situation that is risky legally, professionally, physically, and emotionally. Getting such things in any venue I have ever been in is seldom difficult if you have nothing to hide.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to MsAuthoritarian)

Post #: 4

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 8:18:10 AM

UmbraDomina

Posts: 491
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: SE Michigan
Status: offline

I in general do not mind offering references, or being interviewed, but I draw the line at the practice of some event organizers who want to copy my DL, or expect me to offer personal info such as home address, or my last name.
I have a very full life outside the BDSM community, and I prefer to keep it, I will not risk my carear, family or friends for the chance to go to the "hot new club" which expects me to fill out a application with my last name, home address, DL#. It's just not going to happen, I don't know where this info is stored, or who has access to it, or if they get raided for doing something stupid who is going to have my info.

_____________________________

Alexandra ~

~~ And I will show you something different from either your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust..... T.S. Elliot ~~

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 5

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 8:26:53 AM

WhiplashSmile2

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

You can only vouch for somebody within reason. The longer you've known them and the closer your relationship is to that person, the stronger your vouch actually is. Many times, though people can suprise us, be something a little different then what we actually precieve them to be.

There is a limit to the responsibility you can assume in your vouching for somebody, people understand these things. However, if you are the kind of person that constantly vouches for people that turn out to be less then desired in the group, be prepared.

A few bad apples in the barrel are to be expected from time to time, is what I'm trying to express. Long as for the most part people that get vouched for turn out to be good people, not too much of an issue.

The beauty about private clubs is that undesired people can get kicked out, and asked to never come back again.

Make certain you are on the same wave length with the membership guidelines and expectations. Everything should be just fine.

(in reply to DelilahDeb)

Post #: 6

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 10:35:48 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

I'm moving from my position that references are worthless. Similar to the business word, negative references, or warnings, coming from people you can trust are often right on target.

We've had some recent experience where our causal attitude regarding inviting people to our house parties has come to bite us in the ass. One was kinda funny, the other could have had major repercussions.

More than the reference, the source of the reference or advice should be considered. Coming from a original position of "I can handle anything and anyone" I now am more careful about who gets and invite and who can bring a guest unknown to us.

In this era where 'experience' needs to be qualified as to 'on-line' or 'RL'; you can't trust how a person represents themselves. Inviting the 'clueless' can be dangerous. No matter how much you want to outreach or give people the opportunity to experience something, the 'exceptions' cause the need for a 'rule'.

There are a lot of people I know and trust in the community. In the future, when they are the source of advice I'll respect and act upon their opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Yup, I'm one of John's "have no references people."

That's not true, we'd vouch for you! Of course that will likely get you banned from clubs and events coast to coast.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 7

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 11:11:28 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

Last time I vouched for someone it was missturbation ... I agreed to be her ref. to join a local dungeon

she ended up making the DM cry ....

can't take her anywhere ... *grins*

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 8

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 1:01:59 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercnTheCuteOne
That's not true, we'd vouch for you! Of course that will likely get you banned from clubs and events coast to coast.

Not at all. I can see the conversation now...

DM: Merc? Do you know this couple?
Merc: Jeff & Carol? Sure. Great folks.. he's kind of square but there's hope for him yet.
*dm gets worried look on his face*
DM: Jeff, do you know MercnBeth?
Jeff: Oh yeah, raving lunatics.
*dm looks vastly relieved*

See, it'll all work out fine *laughs*

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 2:48:47 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercnTheCuteOne
That's not true, we'd vouch for you! Of course that will likely get you banned from clubs and events coast to coast.

Not at all. I can see the conversation now...

DM: Merc? Do you know this couple?
Merc: Jeff & Carol? Sure. Great folks.. he's kind of square but there's hope for him yet.
*dm gets worried look on his face*
DM: Jeff, do you know MercnBeth?
Jeff: Oh yeah, raving lunatics.
*dm looks vastly relieved*

See, it'll all work out fine *laughs*

And I WILL make a pervert of you yet...although I don't think you will ever be making DM's cry but one never knows.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 10

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 2:49:30 PM

DelilahDeb

Posts: 429
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile2
The beauty about private clubs is that undesired people can get kicked out, and asked to never come back again.

Community parties hosted at private homes have the same choice. Further, the folks who host community parties talk to each other.

As I speak, all of the local area party hosts of our monthly circulating play party (song cue: the oldest original permanent floating dungeon in Eugene) have a watching brief on a particular person who has repeatedly stepped over the line of acceptable party behavior…and then used a behaviioral disability to excuse it, instead of taking responsibility for their [sic] own actions and working to correct the issue. The only reason they [sic] haven't already been declared persona non grata for the indefinite future is that the complaints from the recipients of their [sic] abuse have come a week or more post-party, and the host/esses are all agreed that acting on stale complaints are not a way to correct misbehaviors.

Dropping out of the formal-speak, do they think we don't talk to each other? Do they think the community hasn't noticed their tendency to leave tearful subs in their wake, ones who won't go into a home where they are present? Domination is for fun; abuse starts with an inability to respect boundaries.

Lady Delilah Deb

_____________________________

"All acts of love & pleasure are My rituals."
--from the Charge of the Goddess, a Wiccan teaching

(in reply to WhiplashSmile2)

Post #: 11

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 3:21:49 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

For the group I co-founded, it meant the sponsor was responsible for the behavior of the guest. This meant that if the guest was asked to leave, so could the sponsor...and, if the repercussions were bad enough, the sponsor could be kicked out. The moral of the story: only bring people you know and trust...and who would probably be interested anyway.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to DelilahDeb)

Post #: 12

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 3:54:03 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

More than the reference, the source of the reference or advice should be considered.

I think this is an important point that deserves emphasis. Particularly if the reference is character or behavioral in nature (vs. factual... whether they are married, for instance). A reference from an unreliable source, or an anonymous source, is not very worthwhile.

It's the old adage that information is only as good as the source.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 13

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 4:32:24 PM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

Last time I vouched for someone it was missturbation ... I agreed to be her ref. to join a local dungeon

she ended up making the DM cry ....

can't take her anywhere ... *grins*

Hey hey you made him cry first lol.

On vouching for people i'll only vouch for a few very close friends.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to softness)

Post #: 14

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 4:46:55 PM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

Last time I vouched for someone it was missturbation ... I agreed to be her ref. to join a local dungeon

she ended up making the DM cry ....

can't take her anywhere ... *grins*

Hey hey you made him cry first lol.

On vouching for people i'll only vouch for a few very close friends.

yes but thats because I had joined without being vouched for .... I am allowed to ... no one had vouched for me

you tarnished my good sweet harmless name you did ... am telling on you!

_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 15

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 5:23:13 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
2. This topic has caused quite a stir on the boards more than once, and I'm sure LA will find the appropriate links.

Nice pic dude!

Vouching depends on how seriously they examine the voucher and follow up. I've never needed to be sponsored in any way other than being willing to pay the guest fee. I'm sure I'm missing out on some way cool hot private group stuff, but that's the story of my life.

Fact is, after you've been around a few years, you can find as many people who say "you suck" as will say "you rock"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_728809/mpage_4/key_reference/tm.htm#730243
references

http://www.collarchat.com/m_234183/mpage_1/key_reference/tm.htm#234184
references (2)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1065944/mpage_1/key_references/tm.htm#1066015
givign references

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1525554/mpage_2/key_references/tm.htm#1526867
References

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 16

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 5:46:27 PM

PornStarOwner

Posts: 14
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One was kinda funny

Would that be the one I am thinking it is??? Finding someone's dad sitting by the pool?

Taggard

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 17

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 5:53:33 PM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

The local club in Nashville requires that a "member in good standing" sponsor any new person to enter, and as well to join. One becomes a "member in good standing" after the initial 6 month membership. We have a website where new comers can email the officers of the club and arrange to meet several club members at a munch, or for an interview if there is no munch on the particular weekend they would like to visit. We also accept letters of reference from other members of the extended community that are known to people in our community.

Sponsoring someone into the club means that you take responsibility for filling said person in on the rules, protocols and other aspects of polite and courteous behavior in the club.

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to DelilahDeb)

Post #: 18

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 6:26:39 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PornStarOwner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One was kinda funny

Would that be the one I am thinking it is??? Finding someone's dad sitting by the pool?

Taggard

I was there that night, boy was that weird~

(in reply to PornStarOwner)

Post #: 19

RE: Scene references; some thoughts about vouching - 10/23/2008 6:27:48 PM

MmeGigs

Posts: 706
Joined: 1/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DelilahDeb
(song cue: the oldest original permanent floating dungeon in Eugene)

I now have that song running through my head.

I know all of the songs from that show.

You are evil and cruel.

It's going to be a long night.

(in reply to DelilahDeb)

Post #: 20

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