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RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 6:46:15 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		Hubby has a lot of unhealthy habits but He hates it when i say anything or suggest an alternative to what he asks me to get Him to snack on.  I only help when He asks for help.  Several years ago He followed the South Beach plan with me and I helped Him because He requested it.  Now He is back to His old eating habits and i can't do much about it except to prepare healthy meals.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 7:56:37 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Thank you CD, that really is where it all boils down to isn't it?
One other thing to consider...
If you decide you can live with it, look the other way, keep your opinions to yourself.....would it make a difference if you were expected to sit idly by...or actually be a participant?

If your dominant was an alcholic....would you bring him drinks, drink with him....participate?
If his cholesterol was 400, would you cook all the fried food that he wanted, knowing it would kill him?

I know this was asked of CD, but I wanted to throw out an answer too.
You asked specifically if it mattered or made a difference if a person was to sit idly by or be an active participant.

My late husband drank. He was diagnosed with liver disease about 3 years before he was diagnosed with the cancer. I still got him his drinks.
He was diagnosed with diabetes not long after the liver disease. If he wanted cookies or cake; I made him one.
After he was diagnosed with the cancer, he still smoked; and yes, I bought and brought him his cigarettes.

Perhaps, if our relationship had been different than it was, I might have put my foot down and not been such a silent, active participant; there is no way of knowing. I knew what he was like, I knew WHY he refused to change his ways, and I had the choice of either accepting it his way, or walking out the door. Walking out the door was not  an option.

Of course, now...if I was to find myself in  similiar situation; I could not say how I would act; but I think...that I would walk out the door. I refuse to watch another die just for principal.

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 8:07:44 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		ehhh when I do something that i REALLY shouldnt be doing .  I get a playfull smacked and yelled at.  Which i promptly ignore.  OHh and i get the DREADED mom LOOK! .  You guys know what Im talking about   In other words she takes excellent care of me.

BadOne

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 9:24:25 PM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
Status: offline 		Oh I've got that dreaded Mom look downpat, and I'm not even a Mom, so I know what you're talking about SB. 

I don't have to deal with this sort of problem in my relationship, thank goodness.  But he has changed some of his old habits, or at least altered them in some ways, since I came into his life.  I simply expressed my feelings about those habits, and why I felt that way, and left it at that.  He was the one who chose to alter them, and has admitted many times that I am a good influence on him.


(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 9:34:27 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If it is your job to care for them,.


No... it their job to obey me... It's definitely not their job to care for me unless I have given instructions as such.

This is not to say that they don't have feelings and thougths on a given issue.  And following my protocal... my girls will ask permission to share their feelings or thoughts on a given issue..  but regardless of me listening to them or not... They will abide by my decision...

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 10:58:10 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

How do you as an "s" type handle the challenge of taking care of your dominant and doing what is in his best interest....even when they don't necessarily want you to?



You don't.

You accept that he has weighed up the risks and arrived at his decision. In the event the risk to health is significant, then perhaps this person has a mindset issue amounting to lacking reason, and some time to get his/her head together is required.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 11:11:05 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

I'll be totally honest, and I know that what I am going to say will not sit well with most here.

My late husband was a drinker, and a smoker, had been most his life. He also died from cancer and had diabetes. During his illness, neither the youngins or myself tried to get him to change his habits; we knew him too well. Pushing him to try and be heathier would have been like giving him not only a bomb, but also permission to set it off at our feet, of which he would have done.

So, despite the fact that I hated him killing himself in that way; I did nothing, I said nothing; I let him live as he had always lived, and how he wanted to live. I knew it was killing him; and I knew that it was killing him faster after he was diagnosed. Sometimes though, the right thing to do is do and say nothing at all.


I think this is a very realistic view.  I probably would try anyway, but when you get right down to it, adults already know when they are doing bad things to themselves.

For instance, someone who is overweight and not eating healthfully, already knows this.  A smoker already knows it's not good for them to smoke etc.  I think doing small things to help someone, like making sure there is healthy food choices in the house, reminding them to take medication or vitamins, offering to exercise with them, etc  are all somewhat helpful, but unless someone wants to help themselves, there isn't much that anyone can do.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 11:33:07 PM   
Rayne58


Posts: 746
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		*fast reply*
Sir is diabetic.  He takes His insulin regularly and does blood sugar checks when I remind Him
He has renal failure and is on a machine for 8 hours a day 3 days a week.  When the machine is ready and everything laid out I suggest He get ready for me to insert the cannulas and get on.  There are days when it isn't His favourite thing to be doing, but it's a choice between that and feeling bad, so He does it.

He also smokes.  He has tried to quit, but has found it very difficult.  He buys His own cigarettes and smokes out on the balcony or in the laundry.  When He's on the machine, I will bring the ashtray and the cigarettes....once or twice during the session.  I also bring the bong and the pot He needs for pain relief and so He can sleep.  I don't mind the pot, I hate the cigarettes....but He stresses big time if He can't smoke.

He does eat healthy, better than He did before we got together.  I cook simple meals.  He's not a big red meat eater so He lives on fish, chicken and/or sausages and the occasional pork chop or small steak.  He has cut out potatoes but substitutes multi-grain bread, and He does eat mixed veges.  Not a fan of fruit - it has too much sugar and He is on fluid restriction so juice counts against it.  We avoid heat and eat meals and don't eat a lot of fast food.  BUT He does enjoy the occasional piece of chocolate or if we go out for coffee He will have something sweet....and when we get home He often needs more insulin!

We try and work together to keep Him as healthy as possible, He does know what needs to be done so I don't have to nag, just remind a lot

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Collared sub and married to Nevershyau

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/9/2008 11:46:03 PM   
VivaciousSub


Posts: 446
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If it is your job to care for them,.


No... it their job to obey me... It's definitely not their job to care for me unless I have given instructions as such.

This is not to say that they don't have feelings and thougths on a given issue.  And following my protocal... my girls will ask permission to share their feelings or thoughts on a given issue..  but regardless of me listening to them or not... They will abide by my decision...


I'll second Knight on this.

My job, as Master's sub, is to follow His directives and orders. If He has asked me for help on certain issues, then I will follow that directive but it is not my place to insist that He do anything! However, if He were indulging in behaviors that I found I couldn't tolerate, was well aware of the risks, and wasn't doing damned all about it then I could re-evaluate and decide whether the relationship was no longer right for me.

You can't make someone quit doing something that they really want to be doing. For instance, I smoke. I am getting close to being ready to quit, but Sir knows that trying to force my hand on the issue will be counterproductive. He also knows that when I am ready to quit, He will be their to help me with rules and reinforcements.

And the next person that comes up to me while I'm smoking and says, "tch, don't you know that's bad for you?" .....

....gets donkey punched.


_____________________________

9.8m/s^2 + VivaciousSub + ground = ouchx10^9th

To yield readily--easily--to the persuasion of a friend is no merit.... To yield without conviction is no compliment to the understanding of either. ~ Pride and Prejudice

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 1:09:25 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Erin,

When my Dad became ill, we were all really concerned that he wasn't "doing what he should be doing" to take care of himself. Suddenly he had to stop eating all the foods he loved, and had to behave in ways that were really foreign to him, which he just didn't like. And everyone got on his case for it. Because we loved him, of course, and wanted to keep him around longer.

We were selfish.

He finally told me, the old familiar phrase (to me, anyway, although I had forgotten), "I want to add life to my years, not years to my life." And then he added, "If I have to live miserably just so I can live longer, I'll pass, thank you."

I got that. And it was painful to watch him deteriorate while ingesting things that promoted his demise. But he was smiling and as content as he could be, rather than frustrated and grumpy and resentful of the disease, of us, of his life. I think it's a mindset we often forget, as the ones who love them and are stuck watching them be unhealthy. It scares and saddens us because we want them to be around longer. We want them here for our benefit. We aren't ready to let go of them yet.

But is it really fair to them? Are we really doing them a service by suddenly treating them like patients, or like children, or by depriving them of what they have enjoyed in life?

My former Master is diabetic, and didn't take very good care of himself. I'd watch him eat things like pasta, and cornbread, and big fat rueben sandwiches...and have dessert. But he's all grown up, and is capable of making his own choices, otherwise, why would I be submitting to him? The way I dealt with it was to simply tell him it scared me, because I felt that any day could - poof - be his last, and I was constantly living with worry about that. I also once (and only once!) told him that he once told me, "If I knew then what I know now, I would have done things a lot differently" and I asked him, Since now he DOES know...why isn't he doing anything differently?

I have to agree with the others here, who have said they would not force or push or manipulate their dominants to do anything the dominants didn't want to do. There is a whole psychological mindset behind being ill, and we don't know how or why people handle their illnesses as they do, because we're not them. If we love them, we can express our concern and then support them (or try to as well as we can) in their decisions. Once we start taking those decisions away from them (or try to), we stop being what they loved about us in the first place - submissive to them.

Interesting thread, Erin. I'm glad you wrote it.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 2:30:15 AM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		Well said NuevaVida.....but it's also not easy to watch the one you love slowly kill themselves.....it really is a complicated issue on both sides. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I have to agree with the others here, who have said they would not force or push or manipulate their dominants to do anything the dominants didn't want to do. There is a whole psychological mindset behind being ill, and we don't know how or why people handle their illnesses as they do, because we're not them. If we love them, we can express our concern and then support them (or try to as well as we can) in their decisions. Once we start taking those decisions away from them (or try to), we stop being what they loved about us in the first place - submissive to them.

Interesting thread, Erin. I'm glad you wrote it.


_____________________________

We attract hearts by the qualities we display. We retain them by the qualities we possess.

Shoes can change your life................. Cinderella

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 2:55:58 AM   
rosanegra


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:



No...I would not be an active participant in my partner's self-destruction.  This is part of that choice, mist...deciding whether or not living with it means that you are going to actively participate.  For an s-type, this would be a very difficult decision...if she decides that she can live with it AND be his submissive, then that means she also follows his orders or she suddenly makes him asking her to do unhealthy things for him a hard limit.  But at that point, she is starting to control the dynamic that much more, isn't she?  Is that the way it the dynamic was set up, with the s-type in control?.  AND, it could be argued that she is NOT living with it but rather, is trying to control him through other means.


But a hard limit against doing something that is likely to cause you immense grief far earlier than necessary, and rob you of years of enjoyment with your partner doesn't seem all that unreasonable in my opinion, even from a 'topping from the bottom' angle.

I don't think that refusing to help your Dom dig himself into an early grave is "controlling." I think that it is a demonstration of deep love.. I cannot help someone I love hurt themselves and me simultaneously, no matter how happy their unhealthy habit makes them.. it is not, and should not be, the only thing I can do for them to make them happy. Being unhealthy is not required to be happy. In fact, most people who choose to lead healthier lives after having had very unhealthy ones find that they are more energetic and happier for it in the long run. It is a reasonable limit.

After all.. if he wants the bag of potato chips, he can make the effort to go and get it. If he wants the fried food, he can make it. If he wants the cigarettes, he can go out and buy them.

Just because you are not willing to participate in the self-destructive behavior does not mean you are not allowing them to make that decision for themselves. You are merely refusing to help cause yourself pain and suffering of the non-enjoyable, non-constructive variety. That seems fair to me.


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(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 3:06:22 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If it is your job to care for them,.


No... it their job to obey me... It's definitely not their job to care for me unless I have given instructions as such.

This is not to say that they don't have feelings and thougths on a given issue.  And following my protocal... my girls will ask permission to share their feelings or thoughts on a given issue..  but regardless of me listening to them or not... They will abide by my decision...
*drool*  i think there are limited things one can do as an s-type to help.  Such as altering cooking habits, perhaps suggesting vitamins, or having their D-type's prescription meds ready at their assigned times etc.  But taking control, nagging, whining, complaining, becoming argumentative....not my idea of "caring". It could strain the relationship. cause undue stress, and further impair the health of the Dominant, rather than help. 

_____________________________

Truth is, everybody is going to hurt you; you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for." -Bob Marley

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 4:09:36 AM   
Twicehappy2x


Posts: 1096
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline 		Depends on what needs doing.
 
Sometimes i put on my mommy hat. For example " Caesar and Cleopatra, put away your soldiers (they play Empire Earth) it is a school work) night". I know when they are playing they forget about the time.
 
Sometimes i put on my psychologist's suit and frame the "needed to be done" issue in a way they cannot argue with. Like with Scooter's bad shoulder; "keep ignoring it Master, when you can't ride your HD or play your guitar anymore". That got him to the doctor. Of course i found the doctor, verified the insurance and made the appointment, but he went.
 
If it is medicine they should be taking, i put it in their pill cup, if that does not work i'll ask them if they'd rather have me put it in their food. That one always works because they are pretty sure i would put it in their food. Lol, because i would too.
 
Jewel with her diet, at night, if i notice she's ignoring/avoiding it, i put a protein shake in front of her. She loves my homemade chicken and noodles, but she picks the chicken out. She is supposed to be upping her protein consumption due to diabetes.
 
OK, fixed that one, i chop up two of the chicken breasts into the gravy as usual, then i put two more into the blender and puree them and add them to the gravy, no chunks and she is getting her protein.
 
Jewel loves her junk food. Since she was diagnosed with diabetes i still keep her in "junk food". Or so it seems. I just make her goodies without sugar, use splenda instead, use half whole wheat flour, whatever it takes.
 
Am i being argumentative, no. Am i topping from the bottom, nope.
 
I am doing exactly what they need me to do, taking care of them. Both of them will tell you that they realize they need keepers.
 
A lot of dominants have already replied "no, they'll obey me". Some have commented on the quality of life versus the quantity (you can have both if you know what you are doing).
 
I could not/would not be with some one who refused to take care of their health. I mean, what they hell; you promise to take care of me, guide me, own me, and in my case love me, but you are going to ignore stuff that will eventually kill or at least disable you? How is that keeping your promise to me?

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 5:57:28 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: silkncarol

Well said NuevaVida.....but it's also not easy to watch the one you love slowly kill themselves.....it really is a complicated issue on both sides. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I have to agree with the others here, who have said they would not force or push or manipulate their dominants to do anything the dominants didn't want to do. There is a whole psychological mindset behind being ill, and we don't know how or why people handle their illnesses as they do, because we're not them. If we love them, we can express our concern and then support them (or try to as well as we can) in their decisions. Once we start taking those decisions away from them (or try to), we stop being what they loved about us in the first place - submissive to them.

Interesting thread, Erin. I'm glad you wrote it.




Thank you, silkncarol, and I do know it is not easy for the onlookers who love them. That's why I wrote this part, too: "It scares and saddens us because we want them to be around longer. We want them here for our benefit. We aren't ready to let go of them yet. "

I agree it is complicated, with understandable emotions on both sides. There are little things someone can do (like what Twice said about blending more protein into the gravy), and then in some cases they can't. My ex husband would have had my ass if I did something like that - he'd have called it tricky, and said it altered the flavor a bit. Others might think that was an awesome idea (I thought it was!).

As for my Dad, well, he wasn't going to eat the healthy recommended stuff. He didn't like it. He didn't like it in the house. And after 50 years of marriage, my Mom wasn't going to walk away when the cancer took over. Sometimes, you just suffer because you love them. Sometimes, you can't tell a man who has had coffee every day for the last 60 years that he can't have it anymore, or has to have decaf (yes, it tastes differently), or to stop taking Advil because it's killing his kidneys, or to switch from milk to soy. Change the diet habits of an Italian man set in his ways? Good luck!!




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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to silkncarol)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 6:31:19 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Change the diet habits of an Italian man set in his ways? Good luck!!

LMAO I got a chuckle out of this. My late husband was Italian.

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 7:10:14 AM   
Sunnyfey


Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: OK
Status: offline 		Sir is like that,for a logn time he was on a caffine restriction (thakfully as of a week ago the Doc said hes healthy as an ox) and had a love of red bull and other energy drinks, hes also allergic to capsacian and likes spicy foods.

I and the other girls happily and quickly put our collective feet down.

We never let him buy energy drinks, and we did all the cooking. One of us always went with him anywhere (not so much a to stop him sort of thing as thats just how it is, one of us was always there to serve him) so we made a point to go buy what he wanted when we were out, so he wasent even tempted to buy anything he couldent have. Dont think hes gone shopping in about 3 years without one of us. And we even had the girls he worked with in on it and they watched him where we couldent.

Let me say this, its not we dident trust him, hes not a child and wouldent go behind our backs, and dident need constant looking after and still dosent. We just made sure it dident happen. And I wont lie and say it dident cause alot of arguments, but hes happy and healthy now (and I still regulate his caffinne intake a little bit, just to be on the safe side)

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 7:55:43 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Change the diet habits of an Italian man set in his ways? Good luck!!

LMAO I got a chuckle out of this. My late husband was Italian.


indeed.
 
this slave had never experienced passion for food until she became the slave of a 1/2 Italian (1/2 Sicilian) and actually got to witness the making of the sauce, the extensive and endless and loud discussions regarding the "right" way to make dough...and god forbid you got the wrong tomatoes, or the wrong flour or tried to substitute Boca-burger for the 20% fat ground beef that goes into the making of the meatballs.
 
what He creates is "soul food"...and as "bad" as it is, nutritionally, the cooking of it and the tasting of it feeds His soul and makes Him happy.
 
this slave is not allowed to cook anything resembling "Italian"...it just wouldn't be right...she can't even roll the meatballs because He's afraid this slave's lily-white, non-Italian skin would taint the flavor!!!

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 8:54:31 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Actually the way around the arguments and struggle is to ask him to set clear rules about it. I'm supposed to interrupt him to make sure he eats while it's hot. Because if I just call him, he comes out half an hour later.

So if he says "Yes, I'll be right out" and doesn't, I go back in. If I get brushed off I ask him if he wants me to put it away and he can heat it up whenever or is he coming out now like he said.

If I'm supposed to be taking care of him in terms of his diet, and he starts fighting with me about it, the easiest way out is to say to him "You told me to do this. Have you changed your mind? In that case what is your new rule?" Because I have no compunction about saying that he's making it impossible for me to do what he told me. And since setting me up to fail is not a game we play, I want the rule changed to something I can succeed at.

But no, I don't buy cigarettes for people with lung disease or alcohol for addicts. And I don't deep fry anything, not being Southern.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Doing what's in their best interest....even when th... - 10/10/2008 10:43:14 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		While I care ABOUT M, I don't care FOR him. I'd do all of the above for children but not a grown adult. If he was restricted in any way medically or health-wise, it's down to him to see to it. I'm not his keeper, HE is mine.

agirl

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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