How to fix this crisis

How to fix this crisis (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 3:00:46 PM)
Instead of trying to or at least in addition to "fixing" the credit market, we need to actually recreate a functioning economy. We need a new "space program" to rebuild our economic might and employ people in actual jobs (rather than financial skimming) as well as rebuild our infrastructure. Imagine how the markets and the world would respond if America announced we were implementing a massive retooling of our transportation and energy infrastructure, employing American companies and American workers in creating a multi-stage program of fuel efficient cars in the short term and hybrids in the long term. Cars have to be built here and a few assorted rules along that line. Massive effort similar to WWII and the space program. In addition, we were going to implement a number of energy programs (without mentioning they were put in place by Carter and dismantled by Raygun) primarily focusing on solar and nuclear energy (so both sides get and lose something ) because America is going to get off oil and start exporting energy. At the core, this isn't a credit problem, it is the fact that we have a massive trade imbalance and have been spending far more money than we make. We need to start selling more than we import and the sooner we do that the sooner we did our way out of this problem. Of course there are all sorts of problems with doing this but at the same time, they just convinced Americans it was a good idea to give $700,000,000,000 to the same executives who stole it in the first place so now is the right time to sell America on a good idea. In addition, the other thing the economy needs is hope, right now there is none because there is no real fundamental change on the table, this would be that fundamental change needed to turn things around.

seeksfemslave -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 3:04:56 PM)
I always thought Socialism was unconstitional.

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 3:09:10 PM)
2 options... 1)fuck the foreign oil and use your own which you have tons of but you dont want to go and get it. 2)leave the usa.

LadyEllen -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 3:20:22 PM)
Oh Michael! I started a thread along the same lines last week but it turned out that the real problem wasnt what you and I see, but that American workers are lazy and stupid and looking to the past with all this. It was called "right all along?" and it turned out I was actually wrong all along! E

SimplyMichael -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 3:34:13 PM)
While I think the majority of this can be laid at the feat of the Republicans and especially Bush at this point, it really no longer matters. The problem is SO large it is going to sink us all. While I think a large portion of this is a rather brutal reality that is going to require some brutal pain to pay off, there is a part of this that is psychological AND based on two things we can radically change if we put our mind and will to it, massive imports, modest exports and how that effects energy costs. As for America having plenty of oil, that is horseshit. We have massive coal deposits and the largest oil shale deposits but there are problems with coal and shale technology was abandoned under Raygun. Even drilling in Alaska if we started today is 5 to 10 years away. What is needed is a compleat seachange in outlook, the world needs to know America is going to pull its head out of its fox/cnn listening ass and tune in to reality. The problems we are facing are only news to Americans because our media, left right and center SUCK. If you had been watching BBC you would have known this crap was comming years ago. I sold my house in 2003 because I saw this coming, so if idiots like me could...

Mercnbeth -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 4:17:28 PM)
quote: While I think the majority of this can be laid at the feat of the Republicans and especially Bush at this point please keep in mind this is merely a slave's opinion, but here it is, for what it is worth: it might be convenient to blame Bush or the Republicans but we really have no one to blame but ourselves, regardless of who is in office. in the midst of an ever-growing energy crisis, how many have taught their offspring not only to drive, but bought them cars, because it was "inconvenient" for them to take public transportation, car pool with other family members or co-workers or move to where they could make use of energy-efficient transportation in order to get where they need to go, regardless of who is in office? how many thought that they should take ownership of homes they cannot afford, therefore plunging them into debt they couldn't get out of, putting them at risk of being homeless, because paying rent is less of a status symbol than paying on a mortgage, regardless of who is in office? how many here are willing to save a few pennies on stuff brought in from China instead of supporting local businesses that produce products right here, regardless of who is in office? and worse...how many are willing to vote for either of the two Republicrats (i.e. ObaCain/Bilin or Mcbama/Palden) that are running for office, when there isn't a fundamental difference between the two, from the Presidency on down..when the stark reality is, there isn't a single one of us that HAS TO jump on either bandwagon, regardless of who is in office? the way this slave sees it, there will be no change as long as the majority of American people see an election as a competition between the Democrats/Republicans every time an election comes up, and they want to be on the side of the "winner" more than they want to see both* self-important asshats/political parties out on their ass and bring someone on with policies that will effect some REAL change in the way our countries issues are handled. *petroleum-based products as an infinite resource for energy.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 4:25:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I always thought Socialism was unconstitutional. (Not anymore)

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 4:35:15 PM)
quote: As for America having plenty of oil, that is horseshit. there is a commercial i am seeing that said some time ago 28% or whatever it was of oil came from foreign market...now its 70%+....he says they have oil in usa that can be had if they go and get it. so they would not be dependant on foreign oil. guess he's lying which isnt anything new.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 5:24:29 PM)
My pretty slave posting on a political thread! My goodness - there must really be a crisis! See what the world has come to? LOVE you baby! Anyway... quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael While I think the majority of this can be laid at the feat of the Republicans and especially Bush at this point, it really no longer matters. The problem is SO large it is going to sink us all. Can't blame President Bush so much anymore after last week. I was chatting with my partner about an hour ago and we agreed upon culprit - the educational system. We have a generation of citizens who have no idea how to be accountable and self sufficient. They expect the government to take care of them. They've been indoctrinated to believe that there is a 'one true way' of liberal higher eduction There are a great majority of our fellow citizens who can't comprehend what the Government is doing to them. Worse - they believe that the government is working FOR them. Even worse - they turn to the Government for a solution. What has the US Government done for (not to) US citizens in the past 50 years? You want to talk about lost wars... War on poverty - LOST War on drugs - LOST War for energy independence - LOST War on illiteracy - LOST War on racism - LOST War to achieve national security - LOST War on criminal workers and the companies who hire them - LOST The wars won or winning? Well, 'bad words' aren't permitted on the public airwaves and nipples are still outlawed in public if they belong to a woman. Obviously math skills, along with logic are totally gone. "If we make take home $2000/month sure we can afford a $1000 mortgage. So what if it is scheduled to go up to $1800 in 3 years. We'll be making more and if not - we'll refinance. Where do I sign Mr. Realtor & Mr Mortgage Banker?" Senator Frank wanted everyone to be able to experience what it was like to be a home owner - how nice. Now, all those people who didn't qualify for the homes they bought through his mandate to Fannie & Freddie can all experience what's it like to be a foreclosed home owner. Two experiences for the price of tax dollars paid by people who took the financially responsible route and didn't subscribe to his version of 'voodoo economics'. You should have gone to Folsom with Michael and I Senator Frank - you'd have been more qualified to participate than you are in Congress. All you 'Change' fans supporting Senator Obama should consider one thing; he supported and voted (one of his rare votes) for President Bush's 'Rewarding Failure' (aka 'Bail out') Bill; adding a few more earmarks. Earmarks that he's supported to the tune of $1 Million/day each and every day he's been in Congress. While on the subject of Math; how come nobody asks the good Senator for the calculation he's using to determine the 95% of the people won't be affected by the tax increase he's promising and those that will be paying more will pay less than 1%? His proposed universal health plan alone will need a huge chunk of change. And I'd challenge him to name one business or industry that will expand jobs and increase production in the face of his promise to raise capital gains tax. I guess it could be worse - If your money was in Europe their is no European equivalent of the FDIC as far as I know. There, you better have some gold stored in a bunker. Last week the big boulder was pushed off the top of the mountain. It gained momentum today and will keep rolling quickly down hill. The social engineers and economic redistribution people have set up the economy for failure. They did not include a solution in their method. They just expected there to be enough successes to pay for their 'good intent' and/or 'for the children' programs. Now - few are left to pay for the folly, and those that are are smart enough to have their remaining assets and wealth hidden from those looking for someone else to pay the bill. It's my opinion that there is no solution to be found in the current operation. Too many programs have ongoing budget increases mandated by law. For instance, here in CA they get a 10% increase to the education budget while enrollment is down, and results are poorer than ever. Results based pay for production is a concept that is extinct in the public sector; as is the concept of cuts when the tax money just isn't there. To turn it around you have to first be willing and able to tear it down. If treads bear out, the November election will facilitate that result. To me the solution is very simple. Eliminate all the programs and employees that haven't worked and are counter productive. Reward success and give incentives to independent individuals and businesses to start businesses and hire people. Transfer basic obligations of parenthood such as food, clothing, and raising children back onto the parents. If religions what to keep their tax exempt status let them fill the void created by sunsetting the social engineering programs. Eliminate all 'moral' laws regarding drugs, sex, and anything else between consenting adults. Tax the hell out if it and allocate 25% of the funds to rehab clinics. AHHHH - Hell with it - keep the status quo and blame the other side of the argument or the other party. I have no horse in the race, and baring another plane going into a building, I'll be retiring to someplace where I can hire a few huge men with automatic weapons guarding my gated perimeter.

IrishMist -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 5:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: While I think the majority of this can be laid at the feat of the Republicans and especially Bush at this point please keep in mind this is merely a slave's opinion, but here it is, for what it is worth: it might be convenient to blame Bush or the Republicans but we really have no one to blame but ourselves, regardless of who is in office. in the midst of an ever-growing energy crisis, how many have taught their offspring not only to drive, but bought them cars, because it was "inconvenient" for them to take public transportation, car pool with other family members or co-workers or move to where they could make use of energy-efficient transportation in order to get where they need to go, regardless of who is in office? how many thought that they should take ownership of homes they cannot afford, therefore plunging them into debt they couldn't get out of, putting them at risk of being homeless, because paying rent is less of a status symbol than paying on a mortgage, regardless of who is in office? how many here are willing to save a few pennies on stuff brought in from China instead of supporting local businesses that produce products right here, regardless of who is in office? and worse...how many are willing to vote for either of the two Republicrats (i.e. ObaCain/Bilin or Mcbama/Palden) that are running for office, when there isn't a fundamental difference between the two, from the Presidency on down..when the stark reality is, there isn't a single one of us that HAS TO jump on either bandwagon, regardless of who is in office? the way this slave sees it, there will be no change as long as the majority of American people see an election as a competition between the Democrats/Republicans every time an election comes up, and they want to be on the side of the "winner" more than they want to see both* self-important asshats/political parties out on their ass and bring someone on with policies that will effect some REAL change in the way our countries issues are handled. *petroleum-based products as an infinite resource for energy. So perfectly stated...and so close to what I said in a different thread Nicely stated Miss Beth [sm=applause.gif]

LookieNoNookie -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 5:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth War on drugs - LOST That's not entirely true Merc.... I personally fell on that grenade for everyone. (I took every damn pill there was....so others wouldn't have to). Am I a giver, or what?

TNstepsout -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 5:45:23 PM)
I have to hold up my hand and admit that I did not teach my children financial responsibility. I'm working very hard right now to make up for lost time. Each of the last three generations or so has become more and more spoiled and now we are where we are. That's why I think a good solid recession, or even better, a depression would go a long way toward curing the excess whining. Anyway, to address the OP... I think that's a great idea. I was kind of thinking the same thing. That a program similar to the public works of the 30's would help retool our energy infrastructure and create jobs. Although the New Deal created a lot of jobs and was responsible for building the network of highways that connected the US, it was not enough to pull the country out of the depression. What finally did that was WWII. Let's hope we don't need one of those.

TabrisMaceth -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/6/2008 5:51:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth War on illiteracy - LOST O RLY?! I do believe a little place called LOLCats would disagree with you, good sir! LULZ! -Tabris

cloudboy -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 9:27:25 AM)
quote: it might be convenient to blame Bush or the Republicans but we really have no one to blame but ourselves, regardless of who is in office. Yes, I chuck the IRAQ War, mismanagement of Afghanistan, and the lax SEC on BUSH's doorstep. That's about 1.5 Trillion Dollars in malfeasance right there. I blame the American public for voting for him in both 2000 and 2004. The average American did not lead us to war or create this national financial debacle. I blame the Democrats for not being more oppositional.

Mercnbeth -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 10:26:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: it might be convenient to blame Bush or the Republicans but we really have no one to blame but ourselves, regardless of who is in office. Yes, I chuck the IRAQ War, mismanagement of Afghanistan, and the lax SEC on BUSH's doorstep. That's about 1.5 Trillion Dollars in malfeasance right there. I blame the American public for voting for him in both 2000 and 2004. The average American did not lead us to war or create this national financial debacle. I blame the Democrats for not being more oppositional. Let's take a closer look at each of the items for blame you site. Iraqi War: The last two funding bills were passed with a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress. One fails, and the war is essentially over. Mismanagement in Afghanistan: The chairman of the over-site committee is running for President. Will your opinion of his "mismanagement" impact your vote? SEC: Problem with Christopher Cox? Can't blame President Bush for not taking him out. Commissioners of the following independent regulatory commissions cannot be removed by the president: the SEC, the Federal Reserve Board, the National Labor Relations Board, the Federal Communications Commission, and the Federal Trade Commission. Meanwhile, those who can and do have an impact of what agencies such as Fanny & Freddie, such as Barney Frank, pull out the 'race-card' when confronted with the fruits of his effort and belief that "everyone should own a house - even if they can't afford it". I share you position of pointing the blame at the voter. My list of reasons to vote against Senator Obama go on for pages, volumes really based on his personal history and documented positions. However my reluctance is almost in balance by one major fact - he is NOT the party in power. There is no way the Republicans deserve another tenure in the White House. Even if Abe Lincoln himself were reincarnated, and was at the top of the Republican ticket - I still would not vote for him. I believe this is true for many. My question is why support any incumbent at any level of Government. Who got it 'right' on any of the issues you deem deserve criticism? Meanwhile, you think President Clinton got bitch-slapped by Republicans after two years and put the Republican Party in as the majority in House for the first time since 1954? Wait until the socialist programs of Senator Obama see the light of day, especially in this economy. He plans to have 5% of the people pay for 95% of the other people's reduced taxes and increased entitlements. Those numbers don't work in a good economy. With all the money in the world on hold - how is it going to work in this economy? Better yet - all those special interests will be expecting their payoffs - the 'global warming' religious fanatics, the no drilling folks, the 'tax the rich' cartel, 'free housing', 'free education', 'free food'; hell, his partner Senator Biden thinks that relocating within the US for a better job is something the government should prevent - so exactly what industry will be expanding during the Obama Administration? I mean besides government bureaucracy, and where will the money come to for that? The solution is as simple as it is unlikely - vote them ALL out. Keep doing so until they appreciate that power has returned to the people; not PACS, not 'special interests', and not the educational elite who, in their protective bubble, are insulated when their 'theories' are implemented.

housesub4you -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 10:35:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth 1 The solution is as simple as it is unlikely - vote them ALL out. Keep doing so until they appreciate that power has returned to the people; not PACS, not 'special interests', and not the educational elite who, in their protective bubble, are insulated when their 'theories' are implemented. This is the stance I am taking also, if you're in office I will vote for the other person. party be dammed. Until we start kicking people out of office they will never listen to us

rexrgisformidoni -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 10:41:07 AM)
Mercnbeth are pretty right now the money. Can't blame recent any politician, these messes go back decades. Its like a glacier, its been creeping up on us, and now it hit a cliff and is tumbling into the water. Also we are to blame ourselves for not voting this aristocracy (which it slowly is becoming) out of office years ago. my two cents.

QuietlySeeking -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 12:11:17 PM)
I will be voting FOR some of my incumbents simply because they had sense enough to vote against the so-called "bailout" (and have voted consistently with how I think). My senators, however, will be voted against until they leave office; regardless of who runs against them.

DarkSteven -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 4:07:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Instead of trying to or at least in addition to "fixing" the credit market, we need to actually recreate a functioning economy. Agreed. quote: We need a new "space program" to rebuild our economic might and employ people in actual jobs (rather than financial skimming) as well as rebuild our infrastructure. Imagine how the markets and the world would respond if America announced we were implementing a massive retooling of our transportation and energy infrastructure, employing American companies and American workers in creating a multi-stage program of fuel efficient cars in the short term and hybrids in the long term. Cars have to be built here and a few assorted rules along that line. Massive effort similar to WWII and the space program. In addition, we were going to implement a number of energy programs (without mentioning they were put in place by Carter and dismantled by Raygun) primarily focusing on solar and nuclear energy (so both sides get and lose something ) because America is going to get off oil and start exporting energy. What exactly is the idea here? That the US will not be competitive unless the government funds economic activity? I disagree vehemently. The Iraq war is an example of government-funded economic activity where Halliburton, Blackwater, and weapons manufacturers are reaping rewards of government spending to the tune of hundreds of billions a year, and it isn't helping. quote: At the core, this isn't a credit problem, it is the fact that we have a massive trade imbalance and have been spending far more money than we make. We need to start selling more than we import and the sooner we do that the sooner we did our way out of this problem. Agreed. quote: Of course there are all sorts of problems with doing this but at the same time, they just convinced Americans it was a good idea to give $700,000,000,000 to the same executives who stole it in the first place so now is the right time to sell America on a good idea. In addition, the other thing the economy needs is hope, right now there is none because there is no real fundamental change on the table, this would be that fundamental change needed to turn things around. Nobody convinced the American people that it was a good idea to bail out the crooks. The package was passed by bloating it with pork. The US people were still strongly opposed and it passed over their objections. To make the US competiitve again, find out WHY we are noncompetitive, THEN fix it.

corysub -> RE: How to fix this crisis (10/7/2008 5:36:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael While I think the majority of this can be laid at the feat of the Republicans and especially Bush at this point, it really no longer matters. The problem is SO large it is going to sink us all. While I think a large portion of this is a rather brutal reality that is going to require some brutal pain to pay off, there is a part of this that is psychological AND based on two things we can radically change if we put our mind and will to it, massive imports, modest exports and how that effects energy costs. As for America having plenty of oil, that is horseshit. We have massive coal deposits and the largest oil shale deposits but there are problems with coal and shale technology was abandoned under Raygun. Even drilling in Alaska if we started today is 5 to 10 years away. What is needed is a compleat seachange in outlook, the world needs to know America is going to pull its head out of its fox/cnn listening ass and tune in to reality. The problems we are facing are only news to Americans because our media, left right and center SUCK. If you had been watching BBC you would have known this crap was comming years ago. I sold my house in 2003 because I saw this coming, so if idiots like me could... No question the Republicans and George Bush are an important part of the problem. I don't think, however, that the democrat party comes out of this like innocent virgins. Barney Frank, Charlie Rangel, Pelosi, my Congressman Holt, and so many others, including the good Senator Barack Obama each made their own special contribution to the mess our country is in today. The Republicans abused the trust the people put in the party, the republican politicans abandoned their supporters like me, as are the democrats today abandoning the JFK democrats of the early 1960's. We are left with a choice...not "may the best man win"...but which man is the "lesser of two evils". McCain wasn't my choice, and most of my democrat friends were Hillary supporters, including the woman in my family...and I was really impressed with the way Sen. Clinton held to her principles, showed true grit, and worked her ass off. I had never seen that in her before watching her for years....the woman was really rising to the rank of "Statesman",,,,! Drilling now IS the answer. Drilling now in seismic proven areas will not take ten years to produce results, particularly offshore Florida in Destin Dome, ANWR (how many people actually know WHERE ANWR is) and other near offshore sites in the Gulf. We have to cut through the red tape of the Interior Department, of the lawsuits that will be filed by the Sierra Club and other radical greenies...and DRILL! We have to build nuclear plants. We have to utilize clean coal technolgy that is available NOW!...As far as oil shale, some of it is drillable...but a great deal of the Colorado shale, for example, is very tight..not in porus formations that can produce, even though we tried in the 1960's with a nuclear device. Yes, we can come out of todays problem...but you are right, with a lot of pain yet ahead of us. There is no one solution...only a total commitment to a program will work us out of this situation. The road ahead is going to be tough and how we "come out as a country" at the other end of this dark tunnel is what is at stake in this election. It is probably the most important election any of us have ever witnessed.

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