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Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 12:16:13 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline 		OK. Bad day. Triggered. These two things have happened on the same day. i got an email. It says:
~I read your updated (new) profile.  Your journal is so passionate.  You truely have a gift for writing.  I wish you well on your new journey.~
That's nice and it's supportive. It's also good to hear that others find passion and that others find value in my writing. That's one of the reasons i write. but i also write to ease my mind, to quench my creative urges, to stop mood swings, to transform my realities, to make sense of them and much mopre. It's a self-discipline. To me it's an equyivalent let's say of a singer singing. i practice with words. It's a skill which will atrophy if i don't. And so on. And so on.
So also today: i get an email from my publisher. Let's back track; i told him i had a new book. I gave him a draft chapter. He sent a contract. i sent off the entire manuscript. I signed the contract electronically and returned the contract as an attachment.
i ab=nounced what i thought would be a reasonable completion time and wanted to set up a creative space and place for a book signing. The bttersea Munch that Stella had organised.
It had been my publisher's idea for me to create anothe nom de plume to use as the writer's name of what is actually a slave's journal. No previous problems wqith the content of books i have written under two other nom de plumes, both 'writers' creating explicit sexual content.
On the same day as the supportive email i get an email from my publisher. he says he cannot endorse slavery.
Now i can deal with losing face and not actually having a book to sign. I can deal and shall deal with finding a new publisher. i don't need my publisher's endorsement that i am a good writer. the reason i include the clip from the lovely email is that it is an example of the amazing support i get from like minded people here.
i happen to know my publisher endorses books written by Dommes. I'm NOT knocking their work. i am certainly not knocking Dom(me)s.
What i find unbelieveable is the endemic attitude towards slaves as a position. It's the most derided and dismissed of all.
Shouldn't i have a voice? is is demeaning? Is it demeaning to be a publisher to publish a creative work written by someone in consensual slavery?
i'm dispirited because i just hit a glass ceiling and one i really did not see in advance or even expect to see in the creative world i move in.
Why not endorse slavery/ i do understand the differnece between my position and the terrible mistakes of history. that indeed was my impetus and my reasoned motivation in wanting the book published.
Why is slavery in bdsm the most dismissed of positions?
Has anyone else hit the same glass ceiling?
PS And now what do i do with the transcript of a brilliant book?


< Message edited by SlaveIndigochild -- 10/6/2008 12:18:07 PM >

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 12:21:55 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Self publish?
It sucks though prinnie, I know how excited you were.  It sounds as though someone else has injected their apprehension to your publisher though?  Particularly as he was aware since the chapter you sent.
 
It is unfortunately the way of the world that bias and PC rear an ugly head.
 
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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 12:48:41 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Wow... I am so sorry your publisher had to take this stand.  It does sound like he was aware and okay with things and that maybe the legal department stuck their two cents in.  How disappointing for you!  I know what a let down that is.  I was almost to that contract, just waiting for all the info and someone with an agenda put his two cents in and ended a fifteen year friendship on top of that.  So I do know the disappointment, but not only disappointment, you have some very valid points to be upset about. 

I hate to say, change things so that it might be submissive rather than slave because of societies sensibilities, but I know that might nullify certain things and misses the point of many other things and doesn't seem right or fair.  Would the publisher be willing to work with you on this?  Maybe a detailed letter explaining your postion or thoughts about this or a disclaimer by publisher or something that would help them, while keeping the book on the market?  Other than that, self publishing may be the way to go, but do try some other publishing houses.  If you have had other books published, you will have an easier way than those of us that haven't had a book published.  But then you know all this! lol  I am just frustrated and sad for you.

I am so sorry this happened, but I am glad you have gotten feedback from other's about your writting.  Isn't it great?  Sometimes that feedback is just what you need, at just the right time.  I think in this case... it was!  Hugs to you... this might be a little setback... but it could open the door for an even better offer!  That is what I will hope for you and your book!

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 1:18:58 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		Prin,

I'm really sorry. BTDT, I'm afraid.

I'd try looking at some of the publishers who put out work in this area on a regular basis. A lot of traditional mainstream non-fic publishers tend to worry about whether something outre that they publish will come back and bite them on the butt legally. There is the fear that, in publishing something, they'll be seen as 'condoning' it, and that it will open up a whole can of legal worms.

Calla Firestorm


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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:02:42 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Self publish?
It sucks though prinnie, I know how excited you were.  It sounds as though someone else has injected their apprehension to your publisher though?  Particularly as he was aware since the chapter you sent.
 
It is unfortunately the way of the world that bias and PC rear an ugly head.
 
the.dark.

i thought non-discrimination was the PC of the day? i thought artistic freedom was the PC of the day?



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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:15:36 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
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Status: offline 		Non-discrimination and artistic expression are the PC of the day, however, the reality is that people are very much still afraid of them in actual practice.  It is disheartening and I hope you find a resolution that allows you to keep your book and your vision of what this work is to do intact.  It is a real shame.

lovingpet

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:41:48 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

I hate to say, change things so that it might be submissive rather than slave because of societies sensibilities, but I know that might nullify certain things and misses the point of many other things and doesn't seem right or fair. Would the publisher be willing to work with you on this?

Dear Lockit:
On this point changing that aspect of the journal would nullify the entire piece.
And then again on a bigger scale: it's like there's a committee somewhere deciding exactly what i should write in order that it is acceptable.
It's 2008.........
and it is a form of censorship.


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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:47:22 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Prin,

I'm really sorry. BTDT, I'm afraid.

I'd try looking at some of the publishers who put out work in this area on a regular basis. A lot of traditional mainstream non-fic publishers tend to worry about whether something outre that they publish will come back and bite them on the butt legally. There is the fear that, in publishing something, they'll be seen as 'condoning' it, and that it will open up a whole can of legal worms.

Calla Firestorm


There's a subtext.
Whilst under one nom de plume as a writer of therapy i was a 'sane therapist' who was admitting to suffering from depression and hardship and overcoming it.
As a slave i am an insane person? attempting to show that i am sane by living a slave's life 24/7 by consent.
But by far the biggest hidden message is coming from the publisher, whom i had credited with having a wider and deeper understanding.



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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:49:37 PM   
SlaveIndigochild


Posts: 272
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Non-discrimination and artistic expression are the PC of the day, however, the reality is that people are very much still afraid of them in actual practice.  It is disheartening and I hope you find a resolution that allows you to keep your book and your vision of what this work is to do intact.  It is a real shame.

lovingpet

Thank you for saying this. i will not compromise. To so so would be lying about our relationship.


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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 3:53:56 PM   
lovingpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveIndigochild

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Non-discrimination and artistic expression are the PC of the day, however, the reality is that people are very much still afraid of them in actual practice.  It is disheartening and I hope you find a resolution that allows you to keep your book and your vision of what this work is to do intact.  It is a real shame.

lovingpet

Thank you for saying this. i will not compromise. To so so would be lying about our relationship.



You are very welcome!

I detest censorship of material meant for intelligent, adult readers.  There is no excuse for it.  I hope your strong stand will not only lead to the publication of your book, but also draw attention to the fact that the public is being deprived of material they may well desire to read.

Best Wishes,
lovingpet

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 5:13:31 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		See, this is a misconception -- a publisher is not required to publish anything that is written. It is not censorship to say "our publishing house is not interested in this piece as it is written." That's just a fact of being an author. If you had any idea how many rejection slips I've gotten over the years... if I considered every one of those rejections as "censorship", just because a publisher or editor decided that my work wasn't suitable for his market, I'd be in a -world- of hurt. Instead, I just put it back out there to a different publisher. Some of them sold, some of them are still out there... but it isn't "censorship" for someone to turn down publishing a book or story.

Again, you probably want to look at a different publisher -- one who has a history of publishing materials more like what you're trying to get out there. There are certainly publishers for your type of work, or there would not be "Diary of a Slave" and "Ms. Abernathy's Concise Slave Training Manual" and "The Compleat Slave..." and "Master/slave relations..."

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 5:36:59 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

See, this is a misconception -- a publisher is not required to publish anything that is written. It is not censorship to say "our publishing house is not interested in this piece as it is written." That's just a fact of being an author. If you had any idea how many rejection slips I've gotten over the years... if I considered every one of those rejections as "censorship", just because a publisher or editor decided that my work wasn't suitable for his market, I'd be in a -world- of hurt. Instead, I just put it back out there to a different publisher. Some of them sold, some of them are still out there... but it isn't "censorship" for someone to turn down publishing a book or story.

Again, you probably want to look at a different publisher -- one who has a history of publishing materials more like what you're trying to get out there. There are certainly publishers for your type of work, or there would not be "Diary of a Slave" and "Ms. Abernathy's Concise Slave Training Manual" and "The Compleat Slave..." and "Master/slave relations..."

Calla Firestorm


It depends on the reason behind the rejection.  If it is truly that it is not suited to the market of the publisher, then there is no issue.  Not putting something to market simply due to biases and irrational fear is a form of censorship.  It is making the thoughts of another unavailable to the general public without regard for the opinion of said public, or in an attempt to tell the public what they believe.  I find those kinds of practices abhorrent.

Whether it fits the technical definition or not, this is an issue of free expression.  It sounds like she had a publisher that agreed to publish, to the point of contract, and backed out for what are dubious reasons at best.  Really, it seems he is not offering any real and substantial explanation.  It is not a simple matter of a manuscript crossing someone's desk that was not expected and, therefore, was inappropriate for the publishing house.  He knew exactly what he was getting and by whom it would be written.

I would tend to want to hold him to his contract, even if only in a financial sense given he has offered no acceptable basis for violating it.  I would have no grounds to do such if the contract had not been extended and signed in the first place.  He had no business putting an offer out that he was not certain was to be executed.  He could have asked for a finished text before taking this to contract, but he didn't based on his knowledge of the author.   She could have long since found another publishing house and not be delayed in the receipt of her royalties had he been honest and more cautious in the first place. 

In the end, there is little to do but look at this as the publisher's loss and move on.  I am certain there will be an appropriate place to market the book just as it is.

lovingpet

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 5:39:36 PM   
derfrewop


Posts: 74
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Vancouver
Status: offline 		I hate censorship and really really hate publishers that back out of a signed contract but I might suggest a slightly different interpretation of the rejection:

Publishers live on credit more than most industries. Currently, it is almost impossible to find operating finance for any company. It is entirely possible to rephrase the rejection you received as more along the lines of "We can't get financing and can only take a risk on books that are guaranteed mainstream money makers (cat detectives, knitting books or such)" Niche markets are great if you can you can wait the 2 to 5 years it takes to sell the print run. But right now, any company that lives on credit is not taking a chance on anything that does not pay off in the next 6 months.

I really don't like this answer but it makes far more sense to me than a previously perv friendly publisher suddenly censoring everything. Every publisher I know is far more willing to invent a "literary" reason not to publish (and pay for) a book than actually admit they are broke.

Just my 2 cents

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 5:48:19 PM   
GreedyTop


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Status: offline 		*hugs Prinny tight* 

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 6:26:25 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveIndigochild

What i find unbelieveable is the endemic attitude towards slaves as a position. It's the most derided and dismissed of all.
Shouldn't i have a voice? is is demeaning? Is it demeaning to be a publisher to publish a creative work written by someone in consensual slavery?
i'm dispirited because i just hit a glass ceiling and one i really did not see in advance or even expect to see in the creative world i move in.
Why not endorse slavery/ i do understand the differnece between my position and the terrible mistakes of history. that indeed was my impetus and my reasoned motivation in wanting the book published.
Why is slavery in bdsm the most dismissed of positions?
Has anyone else hit the same glass ceiling?
PS And now what do i do with the transcript of a brilliant book?



I think I'd find myself a new publisher. How I see this is the publisher should be seeing you as a writer, not seeing you as a slave. He is a publisher and you are a writer and his client with a product to sell. His job is to take what you a product you created and market it to the public.


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RE: Dismissed position - 10/6/2008 11:41:10 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		There is a huge difference between being rejected and being told one is being rejected because they cannot be seen to endorse slavery.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/7/2008 1:52:13 AM   
stella41b


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Status: offline 		Sorry to hear about your situation, Prin, maybe I can track down the details for Millward Lit in Huddersfield..

You know this is perhaps the biggest problem which appears to be the legacy of PC, censorship through fear. But this isn't just artistic licence, but strikes quite deeply at the core of one of the most basic of human rights - the right of freedom of identity and of personal self-expression.

You could take someone, anyone, and let's assume that they decide to buy a house, and so they take out a mortgage. They are employed, in a decent job, and the bank agrees to lend them the money for the purchase of the house. They also take out more credit to buy a car. However now they've made those commitments, and they must now keep their job, or find one similar to continue making the repayments.

Looking at it from a certain perspective, is this not consensual slavery?

I understand that the word 'slave' conjures up for some stereotypical images and can inspire some quite powerful emotions, but the beauty of the English language, and indeed what makes it an incredible language is something what is known as context.

The problem I have with PC is that though it claims to advocate freedom and stand up for the human right of freedom of personal self-expression for certain people, it does so at the expense of allowing other people that very same freedom of personal self-expression. It is mind control and thought policing of the worst possible sort.

I find this situation an interesting one. I write for similar reasons, but I am a fringe playwright and I am about to open a stage play where BDSM is the context for the plot and the storyline. I am however more fortunate in that I do not have to deal with a publisher or a producer as it's all in house.

But for months I have been working to develop a project with the Broadwater Farm community initiatives on the Broadwater Farm housing estate in Tottenham, North London working with the black community. As many people from the UK will know this was the scene of riots in the late 1980's and the project was designed to bring more black people into the performing arts and into fringe theatre. This project was to be funded by Haringey Council.

However I face opposition.. from the church who not only have an issue with the fact that I am transgendered but also with the fact that I am running my own SLGBT support group in West London. They feel I am 'sending out the wrong message'. All of a sudden I'm back where I was three years ago in Poland in the exact same situation. I see no need for confrontation, not since when I am able to coexist in harmony with the churches and black community on the other side of London. Therefore I have decided to back down and walk away. There is no more project.

This may all seem rather unconnected, but is it really that unconnected? Can anyone of you give me the title of any film released in Britain where a black British actor or actress was in the leading role? Who gets to say that the music inspired by The Heptones and Bob Marley isn't produced within our bland, generic English language culture and yet we can find no end of the 'mothafucker this, motherfucker that' gangsta rap? Who gets to express themselves freely and who doesn't?

Sure we can talk about slavery and whether it's consensual or not and completely overlook the bigger issue of oppression. And that oppression, like it or not, is here. This is nothing new in itself, as oppression has always existed in some form or another right through history but in recent years we can see how it has started to develop into new forms of oppression which appear to be slowly undermining and eroding the basic rights of certain people to freedom of personal self-expression.

This is something I'm working with now in this support group which is supported by the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, the NHS and the homeless charity St Mungo's and the primary aim of the group is to tackle this oppression, fear and hostility out there in wider society to enable those who have been denied to once again have the freedom of personal self-expression and to be able to be themselves and a part of society.

Surely I cannot be the only one to see the double standards and hypocrisy here? It would seem that there is a lot of knicker-twisting going on when it comes to even the mention of BDSM and slavery, but lo and behold it would appear that the tabloid media are falling over themselves with pictures and gossip of knicker-dropping, boozing, snorting, smoking and God knows what else from what appears to be an 'in crowd' of dimwitted celebrities, some of whom are known for producing some catchy ringtones. Pardon me, but the moral high ground does seem to be somewhere way above my head.

We are in 2008, next year it will be 2009, and twenty years since the fall of the Berlin Wall, German reunification and the Round Table talks between the former PZPR regime and the Polish Solidarity movement - two events in history which occurred, as we are led to believe, for freedom and democracy.

However here, in the West, in the United Kingdom, we have the 'glass ceiling' or even 'wall of censorship' that Prinny is facing, along with the same choices known to many writers and poets of former times in Eastern Europe. Is she to go underground? Make it a hypothetical story? Would it make it better if she dropped the 'e' in slave and presented herself as a Slav woman from Eastern Europe?

Pardon me for not getting all upset and emotional over the Criminal Justice Bill stopping us from posting bondage pics and stuff which may be construed as 'violent pornography' for it's just that I feel that before we get to grips with the oppression of the State we must first get to grips with the oppression that's out there in society, oppression which feeds off irrational fears and prevents those affected from enjoying the same freedom as others, the freedom of personal self-expression.

I stand by Prinny and support her all the way and hope that she will get published. Having read the book it is a brilliant piece of writing and gives one a wonderful insight into both her life and into consensual enslavement.

PS. Hopefully a publisher can be found, but I'm still open about adapting part or all of it for the stage.

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/7/2008 8:42:16 AM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		I'm wondering if there is a way to look at this differently.  There simply is a huge difference between consentual "slavery" and being a slave in the traditional sense of the word.  I mean, we can't be so married to that word that we refuse to see that slavery (and not just in a historical sense but as it's being practiced today) is violent, terrorizing, and nonconsentual.  The very sense of it being consentual brings a certain irony that seems irresponsible to overlook.  Isn't it a word that we should give the kind of respect it's due (respect in terms of the power of the imagery it envolks).  I mean, really, breaking it down to it's bare bones -- a white woman being dismissed by identifying as a "slave" is kind of thought provoking, rather than "sky is falling."  I'm sure this is an unpopular view but I can't help but think the debate should be a much larger one than "poor me."  I don't know enough about this manuscript and the situation to know if it's about censorship.

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/7/2008 1:18:38 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
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Status: offline 		Stella and I were talking yesterday and went over a number of the things people have mentioned here.  It could be all of the above as to why after a contract was signed, the publisher dropped out and there might be different things that could be done about it, including pursuing legal avenues of holding them to the contract somehow or media exposure… but no matter how that is addressed, it seems to me that one would have to be ready for public exposure.

The economy might have something to do with this, but that isn’t what the publisher said as to why they were breaking the contract.  Whether he was specific or not, he did say that they couldn’t condone slavery, which sounds to me like the legal department or other higher ups decided this would be much more than they would wish to handle in what could happen as a result of publishing the book.

People jump to conclusions, assume, opinionate… right or wrong… we do it.  One word triggers, can leap out and cause reactions not even given much thought at the moment and you have a movement… in more than one way often times.  Shitty as it may be, it is a fact of human nature and society and we are often simply not as open minded as we wish to think.  We all have our prejudice in some form whether it is those that want to censor or those that get angry about those that censure.

Trigger words like slavery, dominance, submission, abuse, etc. are responded to very strongly sometimes.  Those that fought for change in domestic abuse laws, women’s rights, etc. will more strongly oppose anything that seems a set back in what they worked hard to accomplish and will see an acceptance of bdsm type things as a set back and something to fight.  They could take up the cause and fight any publisher that publishes a book that is coming from a personal experience and not care about the personal right or freedom’s that individual has to live their life as they choose to live it.  They won’t think of that person, only what that person lives as an assault upon the work they have given to make social changes that actually needed to take place.  I doubt they would fight a fantasy as stringently as a real life account.

It is hard to change how most define a word.  When dominance is heard, most think a negative and do not see the possible beauty behind the word.  It is the same with submission or slavery.  In an instant they have summed the situation and people up and rejected it.  We might slowly bring about a change, but until we are willing to have people up our ass, examining everything and are willing to responsibly function in a way that might be more acceptable to society as a whole and in general… I know… why should we?... pro and con… nothing is going to change.

Someone like me could go out and face the masses without a whole lot of personal problems with family, social standing or career, but someone who has things in life that would be affected, cannot stand up and shout they believe and live certain things without a lot of harm being done.  Until more of us are able to step out openly about our lifestyle, I don’t see a whole lot of change taking place.  We seem to still be in the first steps of community acceptance in this issue just like all the other issues that people have fought for throughout time… and we hate just as much the attempts to hold us down or back, just as those who will oppose what we do seeing it as going against what they do.  It’s cycle I don’t see changing very soon.

Stella… have I mentioned I love you recently?  I know your heart and what you fight for and you and Indigo have opened my mind to many things I, in an instant would think negatively on or would be judgmental about.  You and Indigo have helped me see the light in many ways and yet I am still dark at times.  Change doesn’t happen that quickly, that often.  I wish more could view the world as the two of you do… but… until then… what you fight for, many of us would do well to fight for, but we won’t always see it because of other things… mostly prejudice in nature.  Although I don’t always understand or see things the way you both do, I am there for you in any way I can be!

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RE: Dismissed position - 10/7/2008 3:11:06 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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From: Georgia
Status: offline 		SlaveIndigoChild, would you mind posting what you have had published before so I can get a feel for your background?  A large publishing house is unlikely to publish a work about BDSM due to many considerations. Stockholder concerns and so on.

I am guessing this publisher you dealt with on this book is a small, private one person operation who basically sends out everything and markets it himself. You can easily do the same thing with self-publishing, which is really a form of what he was doing. Why not do a books on demand type deal yourself? That way you set your own limits to what you can say.  

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 10/7/2008 3:12:20 PM >

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(in reply to SlaveIndigochild)
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