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Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 8:49:54 AM   
OttersSwim


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Another topic got me thinking on this.

Yes, sometimes it works out and those that cheated can end up together and happy...but at what cost?

I am a big believer in the sanctity of agreement and trust in relationship.  Whether you are monogamous or poly, kink or vanilla, we all start relationships that have foundational agreements of trust. 

When you step beyond the boundaries of those agreements (whatever they are), you betray a fundamental trust in your relationship.  This can lead to many bad things...

If you begin a relationship with a lie and a sneak and betrayal of a former partner, you set a precedent.  A relationship that begins with one or both parties engaging in a betrayal of trust starts out with a flawed foundation...and a precedent of betrayal of trust.  If you are that person...what do you do now?

Many people have cheated.  I would like to believe that most are not proud and would not do it again.  And that leads to the question - what did they learn from it?   What you learn, can largely depend on if you are caught.

Was it the lesson of tears, heartache, sorrow and remorse?  "Okay kids, cheating is bad, M'Kay?"
or
Was it the lesson of no one was the wiser and I got away with it?  "All a man can betray is his conscience."

Where do you all see Personal Honor in this?  Is the act of cheating a betrayal of yourself and your personal honor?

So a lot of thoughts and an opening of a discussion on this that I hope will be enlightening to some, and confirming to others...


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 9:06:04 AM   
kittinSol


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I shall only speak in the presence of my attorney.

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 9:12:25 AM   
RCdc


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Cheating is something that allows some people to feel superior to others.  This post merely confirms this.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 11:34:32 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Cheating is something that allows some people to feel superior to others.  This post merely confirms this.
 
the.dark.


Wow, not my intent at all.  Sorry it was interpreted as such.  :(


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 12:18:08 PM   
monywildcat


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My personal take on cheating is that this invites some crazy-bad juju.  Case in point:

Ex ran off to be with another woman.  This "relationship" imploded.  Some time later he was telling me to my face that he wants to work out our issues, we can go to counseling, etc...all the while dating another woman.  Who, unfortunately, was not aware of the fact that he was still trying to make our marriage work.  She was a plan B.  Or I was.  A year later, this "relationship" exploded.  Loudly.  In front of the poor little kiddos.  Sad. 

But this is just my personal experience.  One cannot judge another's actions without experiencing the situation from the inside. 

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 1:18:01 PM   
RCdc


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Whether it was intended or not, it is there in the entire posting - regardless if you are in denial of it or not.
I know for sure that my statement sounded harsh - it is intended to.  I also know that one of the hardest things people can do is self reflection - my intention is that you look at the words you have written and realise just how superior you find your position and whether you are comfortable with that.  If you are - then that is cool.  If you are not, then try and work out why you feel so biased.
 
But then, I am only words on a screen to you.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 1:40:56 PM   
OttersSwim


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Okay, on reflection and a reread of my words, I do come across as condescending and superior - I'll own that.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address it. 

Without doubt, I have an opinion that cheating is bad for all parties involved - even if no one gets caught.  That is also reflected in my post.  Over the years, in both personal and online connections, I have seen references to it where people have thrown out that they have cheated with almost casual ease and with no sense of the gravity or consequence of that act on others, nor what it says about them. 

That really bothers me...

And so that was what this post was about.  Get people talking and leaving a CLUE to those who seem to be clueless that this act can be devastating and harmful to everyone involved - including themselves.

Not my most altruistic post to be certain...


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/23/2008 11:55:39 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

I am a big believer in the sanctity of agreement and trust in relationship.  Whether you are monogamous or poly, kink or vanilla, we all start relationships that have foundational agreements of trust. 
When you step beyond the boundaries of those agreements (whatever they are), you betray a fundamental trust in your relationship.  This can lead to many bad things...
Many people have cheated.  I would like to believe that most are not proud and would not do it again.

Have to go with the Dark here. I like you Otter, but this post just comes across as superior and consescending. Cheating is a loaded issue, and I'm waiting for the avalanche of posts announcing the twueth about "cheaters". That said, until you walk a mile...

The truth is that every situation is different. I endured 8 years of physical and emotional abandonment in an attempt to honor my "vows"... before I said the hell with it and went looking for what I need. These days, I'm much less inclined to make sweeping judgements, esp on such an explosive subject. 



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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 1:23:22 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Where do you all see Personal Honor in this?  Is the act of cheating a betrayal of yourself and your personal honor?

A man's word is by definition his word of honor.
 
K.
 

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 1:56:24 AM   
TabrisMaceth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
I like you Otter, but this post just comes across as superior and consescending.


...Huh? Am I sweetly naive, or are other people seeing things in that post?

Personally, I just plain say cheating is wrong, period. I'm not normally one for moral/ethical extremes like that, but there's just no excuse! If you're in a failing relationship, why not break it off? If the other side's neglectful or what have you, there's no reason to be loyal to them, so walk the hell away from it. Cheating on someone, at best, just seems like you're too lazy to bother standing up and walking away. Unless you're locked away in an ivory tower by someone you were forced to marry, do you really have a justifiable excuse to cheat on someone when you could just walk away?
...It might be worth noting I broke with my last girlfriend a couple days ago over a massive betrayal of trust. I could have just smiled and nodded and pretended nothing was wrong (and she was talented, so that would have been a good business move for me)...but I didn't. It was a bad relationship for me, so I walked away, leaving another bridge in ashes...

-Tabris

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 2:03:51 AM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TabrisMaceth

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
I like you Otter, but this post just comes across as superior and consescending.


...Huh? Am I sweetly naive, or are other people seeing things in that post?

Personally, I just plain say cheating is wrong, period. I'm not normally one for moral/ethical extremes like that, but there's just no excuse! If you're in a failing relationship, why not break it off? If the other side's neglectful or what have you, there's no reason to be loyal to them, so walk the hell away from it. Cheating on someone, at best, just seems like you're too lazy to bother standing up and walking away. Unless you're locked away in an ivory tower by someone you were forced to marry, do you really have a justifiable excuse to cheat on someone when you could just walk away?
...It might be worth noting I broke with my last girlfriend a couple days ago over a massive betrayal of trust. I could have just smiled and nodded and pretended nothing was wrong (and she was talented, so that would have been a good business move for me)...but I didn't. It was a bad relationship for me, so I walked away, leaving another bridge in ashes...

-Tabris


My father and mother have been married for 47 years. Dad had an indescretion 20 years ago. They went to counseling and worked through it. if everyone chucked it all because of cheating, there would be less long term relationships. Staying together was not a mistake and they love each other deeply.

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 2:07:24 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TabrisMaceth
...Huh? Am I sweetly naive, or are other people seeing things in that post?

-Tabris


Yes - naive.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 2:14:50 AM   
simpleplan2


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I don't know if it's condescending or not, but if your intent was for someone who is cheating on his or her SO to all of a sudden jump up, see the light and shout "aha!  I now see that what I am doing really IS wrong" and vow to cheat no more, I doubt if that's going to happen.  Like dark said, we're all only words on a screen.  I know that's an unpopular opinion and there is someone on the other end of those words, but when I see a post telling others what they are doing is wrong (and I don't mean to single out this post), I often think of LaM and his reply to someone that was something like "like I'm going to let an internet person tell me what to do"...sorry LaM, I'm pretty sure that was a mangled misquote. 

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 2:38:44 AM   
candystripper


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Cheating covers a wide variety of situations and isn't easily judged by others.  Betrayal of trust is a little different; if you know you hold someone's trust, then it seems honorable to 'return' it rather than break it, but that is a somewhat vague description of a relationship between parties.
 
The first time my ex cheated on me -- the first time anyone did, to my knowledge -- I was absolutely thunderstruck.  I had no idea he was capable of such behavior (though Gawd knows the clue phone had been ringing).  After that it was less destructive; I think it was the loss of an illusion of safety more than anything else that shook me.
 
I have not cheated, but I have friends who have....every situation is different.  Sometimes it's a matter of 'walk before you run'; sometimes it's a mistake and they make up.  Many, many variables go into the decision and I cannot imagine a blanket statement that would cover them all.
 
That said, I tend to agree that in some cases it's a matter of not wanting to be alone, even for a moment...of wanting to move directly from one relationship to another.  Personally I think that's rarely wise...but foolish things sometimes have wonderful results.
 
candystripper  

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 5:30:32 AM   
Irishknight


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I have complete permission to freely shag any babe who is willing.  My wife of 5 years demands only that I be honest about it.  She still chastises me if I do "ugly chics" but sometimes we disagree on who is ugly and who isn't.

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 6:01:18 AM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Okay, on reflection and a reread of my words, I do come across as condescending and superior - I'll own that.  Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address it

Otter, you're far from the first on these boards to "come across as condescending and superior," especially when the subject of "cheating" comes up.
quote:

Without doubt, I have an opinion that cheating is bad for all parties involved - even if no one gets caught.

That's one opinion, but I happen to have a different one.  I have talked openly here that I do not think that "cheating" is always totally bad/wrong.  I won't go into all the different scenarios again now but suffice it to say circumstances come into play and situations aren't always the same and black & white.
quote:

Over the years, in both personal and online connections, I have seen references to it where people have thrown out that they have cheated with almost casual ease and with no sense of the gravity or consequence of that act on others, nor what it says about them. 
That really bothers me...

See now there's that condescending and superior tone again.  What "it says about them" all depends on who's doing the sayin', in my opinion.  If you choose not to "cheat," bully for you.  It's just always my stance that we shouldn't judge another until we've walked a mile in their shoes.  Not every single instance of "cheating" is wrong or horrible and one must decide for him/herself how to proceed................luci

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 6:16:50 AM   
cjan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I shall only speak in the presence of my attorney.


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< Message edited by cjan -- 9/24/2008 6:17:15 AM >


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 6:22:45 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 7:14:10 AM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Have to go with the Dark here. I like you Otter, but this post just comes across as superior and consescending. Cheating is a loaded issue, and I'm waiting for the avalanche of posts announcing the twueth about "cheaters". That said, until you walk a mile...

The truth is that every situation is different. I endured 8 years of physical and emotional abandonment in an attempt to honor my "vows"... before I said the hell with it and went looking for what I need. These days, I'm much less inclined to make sweeping judgements, esp on such an explosive subject. 


So I have been thinking about this topic a lot...

You folks caught me out and no doubt.  This is a hot button issue for me because I have been on the receiving end of that pain of finding out that a partner cheated.  Strong emotional experiences like that can form hard set feelings and ideas about a subject and it certainly did with me.

Okay, so maybe it is time for ME to get a clue and consider that this issue is not quite so black and white and Wyld's quote above proves that - my immediate response to it was "yea but that is different"...different from what?  From my own experience - and so we start hitting shades of gray that I have not to this point considered because it has been painful.  I am far enough away from my own experience that I can look at it again and see where my hard points are and this proves that they need some examining and possibly demolition.

What I am now considering is that there are many things that can erode, break, or even destroy the agreements that people make in relationship.  People in situations of abuse or emotional abandonment may have very good reason to seek other relationships - and there are probably other situations too...

So yea, it was a high horse I rode in on.  I'm gonna get down now before I fall. 


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RE: Cheating and Betrayal of Trust - 9/24/2008 10:32:24 AM   
Lockit


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Take what you want and need in life; just do no harm.

When someone does something that will cause harm to another person and their actions spiral to others, I will be judgmental and sometimes condescending.  When I must sit for hours, days or weeks helping someone to undo that harm, I get a bit of an attitude about people doing their thing for good reason or not.

Can I understand how someone might cheat?  Oh yes and in some situations, I wouldn’t blame them, but and that is a big but… I don’t see how cheating is going to help the situation if they place themselves or others in harms way.  If there are um’s in the situation and someone cheats… you are exposing them to some pretty awful to dangerous situations depending on what happens and what the situation is.  I will take the judgment and whatever someone wants to call me for taking some attitude about my attitude when it comes to harming a um any day.  A day of harm to a um  could mean years of therapy later on.  I take it very seriously.

I cannot assume or believe that someone who risks harm to their um’s when ticking off the spouse and maybe ruining the home front by cheating, will have everyone’s interest in mind when they are found out and expect things to be handled properly seeing as though they already were not handled properly.  People have been known to end lives in a situation like this. 

I see things on a risk management basis sometimes.  What is worse?  What will do more damage?  What will lessen the damage?  Who will pay the price?  What will the results be?  A few moments’ pleasure or relief are not worth what could happen.

A lot of people have been cheated on and they know the pain of it all.  The betrayal, the mind pictures, the doubts, the loss and all that come with it do harm to another human being and I can’t make light of that after spending most my adult years working with hurting people in crisis.  I also believe that often times, those who cheat, harm themselves in many ways, but that is their choice and shouldn’t have to be something other’s suffer.

I was trapped with a monster that had a lot of power, lots of high up friends and worldwide connections and for years I suffered.  Even the shelter’s said I was better off to stay and find a way to get out and away and to go back home.  My um’s were stolen and taken out of the country.  I had chances to escape or make myself feel better with another man who would have saved us and I did think about it, but came to the conclusion that a lot of people besides me could get very hurt and I could not take my escape or pleasure or relief with what could amount to a very high price.  Those were some very lonely, horrific six years before I could get us out and safe.  Now days, things have improved a lot with laws and such, but back then there wasn’t much support or very many resources.  I do understand the need, the desire to share just a few moments in someone’s safe arms and some good sex!  But… we have to think about things before we do them.

I know my view will be unpopular and will hope we don’t have to argue…lol… I just can’t be real flexible after all I have seen in this area.




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