Lift Detroit In Prayer! (Full Version)

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lazarus1983 -> Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:13:57 AM)

Gracing the front page of today's Detroit Free Press was an article about how a thousand people traveled to Detroit Sunday to pray for the city. For those interested, here's the link:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080915/NEWS05/809150375


Now when I looked at that, all I could wonder was, why aren't these people doing something useful for Detroit? Granted, I'm an atheist, and my view is that prayer and an empty sack is worth the sack. But seriously, the time, and money spent to arrive at this site, and then to sit there and...pray? Come on. Detroit needs a lot, but not a lot of prayers.

I'm willing to put $100 down that god, in any incarnation, doesn't answer their prayers. Any takers?

I guess these people can all pat themselves on the back, and believe that they accomplished something, that they DID something for the devastated city of Detroit. Reminds me of the saying, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat forever. Give a man a god, and he will die praying for fish."





thishereboi -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:23:08 AM)

Do something useful?

Do you mean something useful. like coming on CM to toss a blanket insult at a group of strangers because they pray and you can't grasp the meaning of it?

Or were you taking about doing something else useful.




LaTigresse -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:25:36 AM)

What's wrong with Detroit that hasn't been wrong or going wrong for 20 years?

That being said, I look at it this way. How many things do you do just because it's enjoyable, makes you feel good in some way? Spend money on music, cable/satelite tv, eating out rather than fixing something at home, going to a movie, etc etc...... None of those things are necessary or much of a "fixer", but, they make you feel better.

That's what prayer, especially group prayer, does for some people. It makes them feel better. And while I may be cynical and think it's rather cheesy......they are not hurting anyone and it's making them feel better. Nothing wrong with that.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:28:22 AM)

Do something useful as in take the time that you spent praying, and do something with it like...ohhh...volunteering somewhere in Detroit? Take the money spent for gas and...ohhh...donate it to a Detroit-area charity?

That is what I would define as "useful."

Instead of praying to a god that probably has no intention of answering your prayers. But I'm sure the needy in Detroit are just glad that somebody is praying for them. That will keep them warm at night.




thishereboi -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:34:52 AM)

Well, it will keep them warmer than anything you have done. I am sorry you can't believe in something, but I really don't see that as a reason to attack others. I guess you didn't have anyone else to slam this morning and you had to get your daily quota in.




LaTigresse -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:38:09 AM)

Well, in creating this thread in the light that you did, then defending it in the same light I can say that you have done, at least one useful thing. Shown what a delightful and charming individual you are.

Thank you for the information.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:39:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well, it will keep them warmer than anything you have done. I am sorry you can't believe in something, but I really don't see that as a reason to attack others. I guess you didn't have anyone else to slam this morning and you had to get your daily quota in.


No, no it won't. My doing nothing is worth exactly as much as them thinking happy thoughts.

I have no problem with them doing it, but I have a problem with them thinking that they've done something good, and positive. Because in reality, they haven't done shit. Now, if a miracle happens tomorrow, then I will be more than happy to say that I was completely wrong.

Imagine if those thousand people all came together and DID something good, instead of all coming together and...thinking...of doing something good.




LaTigresse -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:42:19 AM)

Laz, let us know when you've taken some of your precious time and resources to organise something, then come tell us about it.......K




tsatske -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:42:25 AM)

boi comment to you was still valid. A bunch of people spent time, money, and gas to express concern in a way you find useless - and, somehow, you manage to find that actually offensive. Not because you are doing more, but because you have a better idea how those people should spend their time and money.
here's a clue for you - even if you were putting time and money into Detroit, which there is no mention in your post of you doing - you don't actually get to tell other people how to spend their time and money.
To be offended is just silly. To actually think other people are going to agree with your silliness? In order for you to have something to complain about, you would have to explain how what someone else did actually HURT - beyond the percieved 'hurt' of someone else spending their time and money without getting your approval first.




thishereboi -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:43:46 AM)

You said that so much nicer than I did....thanks




thishereboi -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:46:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well, it will keep them warmer than anything you have done. I am sorry you can't believe in something, but I really don't see that as a reason to attack others. I guess you didn't have anyone else to slam this morning and you had to get your daily quota in.


No, no it won't. My doing nothing is worth exactly as much as them thinking happy thoughts.

I have no problem with them doing it, but I have a problem with them thinking that they've done something good, and positive. Because in reality, they haven't done shit. Now, if a miracle happens tomorrow, then I will be more than happy to say that I was completely wrong.

Imagine if those thousand people all came together and DID something good, instead of all coming together and...thinking...of doing something good.


Actually you have no clue what they have done or not done. You already admitted you don't believe in prayer, so how could you possibly know what those people will take away with them today? You have no clue how they are feeling right now, or what they are doing. I can tell you this however...they are not sitting around complaining about what others are accomplishing, they are out doing something.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:48:16 AM)

^^^^^^

Let's say you are homeless, or starving. Would you rather people express concern for your situation, or would you rather people try to help you out of your situation? Would you rather someone come along and say to you in your cardboard box, "I feel bad for you," or would you rather someone come along and give you some food?

I made no mention of me putting any time and money into Detroit because I haven't, and in all honesty I probably never will. But do I think about the problems facing Detroit? Would I like to see those problems disappear? Absolutely, 100% yes. Have I accomplished anything? Nope.

Again, I have no problem with what they do, it is their choice, I just don't think it's really worth mentioning that a bunch of people got together to care, but not do anything about, something.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:51:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well, it will keep them warmer than anything you have done. I am sorry you can't believe in something, but I really don't see that as a reason to attack others. I guess you didn't have anyone else to slam this morning and you had to get your daily quota in.


No, no it won't. My doing nothing is worth exactly as much as them thinking happy thoughts.

I have no problem with them doing it, but I have a problem with them thinking that they've done something good, and positive. Because in reality, they haven't done shit. Now, if a miracle happens tomorrow, then I will be more than happy to say that I was completely wrong.

Imagine if those thousand people all came together and DID something good, instead of all coming together and...thinking...of doing something good.


Actually you have no clue what they have done or not done. You already admitted you don't believe in prayer, so how could you possibly know what those people will take away with them today? You have no clue how they are feeling right now, or what they are doing. I can tell you this however...they are not sitting around complaining about what others are accomplishing, they are out doing something.


I guess we have different definitions of what "doing something" actually means.




MrRodgers -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 4:51:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

What's wrong with Detroit that hasn't been wrong or going wrong for 20 years?

That being said, I look at it this way. How many things do you do just because it's enjoyable, makes you feel good in some way? Spend money on music, cable/satelite tv, eating out rather than fixing something at home, going to a movie, etc etc...... None of those things are necessary or much of a "fixer", but, they make you feel better.

That's what prayer, especially group prayer, does for some people. It makes them feel better. And while I may be cynical and think it's rather cheesy......they are not hurting anyone and it's making them feel better. Nothing wrong with that.

Our major cities simply don't work anymore unless their is a large base of decent paid labor for city-grown economy. Even NY city had to bailed out by the Feds and while throwing $50 million at Yankee stadium.

The auto companies (Detroit) have long since moved most of the auto and auto-related manufacturing to Mexico and China (Asia).

This was almost complete by 20 years ago. Detroit went from over 3 million to less than a million many parts of which I am told are like a ghost town. Yet what have we had...

Just as in Wash., who got Marion Barry, Det. got Coleman Young in Det. rode their entourage into power and for 20 years and merely set out to protect their political consituency and jobs were the last thing on their agenda.

Example: The so-called Rennisance Center (redevelopment) of downtown Detroit not to mention millions into both Ford Field (Lions) and Comerica Park (Tigers) since, as usual...was just more capitalist welfare and did nothing for creating more and real (decent paying) jobs.

American capitalist has abandoned our cities all under the watchfull eye and encouragement of republicans and the executive branches of govt. You see the capitalist is not a patriot and nor is he/she concerned about where and how...just how much. Even one of the best corporate citizens...IBM abandoned all of our cities.

Oh, BTW...ALL the prayer in the world will not help a lick. If you must...pray for a return to a free market and the devolution of power back to the states except for defense and only that necessary for real threats the nation.




tsatske -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:00:09 AM)

I understand that you don't approve of prayer. And it is your right not to pray.
I can even emphasize with the basic sentiment. It is rather like a conversation I once had with my DSIL, when she lived with us, when she drove home from her shift (she was a nurse - why she drove home instead of just staying at the hosp till her next shift was beyond me) in a blizzard. I had called the hospital and confirmed that she had, indeed, left. When she finally walked in the door, I said, 'I was just about to grab hubby and start searching for you.'
She said, 'I have lived in Chicago. Don't worry about me. If you want to do something, you can always say a rosery.' I said, 'That's a good idea. Can I say it from the passenger seat of a moving vehicle?'

but, the point remains - you admit to doing nothing, but you don't like what someone else is doing, because it is 'worthless'. You might see it as being 'equal' to your doing nothing - but do you notice, none of those people are griping that you are doing nothing?

Rather you like to admit it or not, religious groups do a lot of good work in this country. And, no, they wouldn't 'get more done' if you could just manage to forbid them prayer and peaceful assembly.

The world is full of people who do nothing, but are sure that those who are doing something could be doing more, better, more efficent. As a lifelong volenteer, I know this only too well. My sister is now the hospitality minister at her church, and she can not learn to take my very good advice on this subject. People are always coming up with great things the hospitality committee should be doing. I told Tina, when someone stands up in church and says, 'The church (which means the hospitality committee) needs to have a meal before we send the young people off next sunday', 'The church needs to send meals to wives when their husbands first leave for a tour of duty', ect, ect, before one of the ministry team can hop up and say 'Great idea! Okay, Ladies, Tina will be calling you, blah, blah, blah' she needs to hop up and say, 'Great Idae, Susan! Susan is going to be putting together...'

I have led scouts. the parents who volenteer and help things get done seldom have complaints. The parents whose entire contribution is to drive to the meeting location to drop off their child, without ever getting out of the car, are full of complaints about how you are doing things.

Arm chair philanthropy is so easy, isn't it?

It isn't your time, it isn't your money, it isn't your gas. But, if you are so offended to live in a country where prayer and peaceful assembly are protected rights (freedom of the press is, as well, before you tell me that your real complain was that there was an article on the subject) - I can sugest some countries whose laws might be more in keeping with your belief systems. Hell, some of them have 'most favored nation' status with us, so your imigration should be smooth and easy.




camille65 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:03:19 AM)

I agree with laz over this. I have tried to help this fall, I've taken a truckload of blankets, coats and boxes of toiletries to a shelter in Detroit. (And to Flint). I'd much rather people put their energy into something concrete, and if I needed help I'd much rather people help in a concrete way vs saying they've 'prayed for me'.

So yeah, I have helped and I agree with laz on this. I think its just a way for people to feel good yet not actually do anything.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:05:20 AM)

^^^^^^

I'm going to take a guess and say you're intentionally being oblivious to my repeatedly saying that my problem is not with them gathering and/or praying. Just so you can try to paint me as some kind of rights-denying nazi.

Now, answer my question:

Let's say you are homeless, or starving. Would you rather people express concern for your situation, or would you rather people try to help you out of your situation? Would you rather someone come along and say to you in your cardboard box, "I feel bad for you," or would you rather someone come along and give you some food?




RapierFugue -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:08:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Gracing the front page of today's Detroit Free Press was an article about how a thousand people traveled to Detroit Sunday to pray for the city. For those interested, here's the link:



It's going to take more than sky-faires to fix Detroit.  Looking at the numbers, that's one royally screwed city.  As a petrolhead, I find that a genuine shame.




Bethnai -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:11:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Now when I looked at that, all I could wonder was, why aren't these people doing something useful for Detroit? Granted, I'm an atheist, and my view is that prayer and an empty sack is worth the sack. But seriously, the time, and money spent to arrive at this site, and then to sit there and...pray? Come on. Detroit needs a lot, but not a lot of prayers.



Amen.




lazarus1983 -> RE: Lift Detroit In Prayer! (9/15/2008 5:14:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Now when I looked at that, all I could wonder was, why aren't these people doing something useful for Detroit? Granted, I'm an atheist, and my view is that prayer and an empty sack is worth the sack. But seriously, the time, and money spent to arrive at this site, and then to sit there and...pray? Come on. Detroit needs a lot, but not a lot of prayers.



Amen.


That's right, brutha! Say it loud and proud! Now, for some final prayers. Bethnai, would you like to lead us?




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