RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (Full Version)

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slaveluci -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 5:26:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
Now, I seem to read A LOT of postings by dominants who state: "If he/she ever got out of line like that, he/she would be shown the door." No, "there would be Hell to pay"; just the door. It's only recently that I've started to notice so much of it in the current era

I've noticed the same thing and not just here on this particular site.  I've mentioned before about another site I used to enjoy posting to and reading on where there was a slave whose writings I really admired.  She had addressed this self-same issue.  She wrote something that I so totally related to and agreed with that it's always stuck with me. 

Basically, she said that she took much comfort in the fact that her owner/husband had never given the "my way or the highway" ultimatum.  To her, that was the lazy way out.  She said that it really put her in a wonderful state of mind to know with certainty that her disobedience was NOT going to get her sent packing.  What it was going to get her was whatever it took to make her obedient!  Or, as you say, "hell to pay." 

The thing is, I can't imagine her EVER being willfully disobedient to him.  However, she knew that she was owned by him until he ever decided otherwise.  If she ever decided she didn't want to be his property, she couldn't just suddenly start acting out to the point where he got totally exasperated and sent her packing (thereby giving her the release she was aiming for).  She knew that if she ever began acting thusly, it wouldn't just mean "hit the highway," it would mean retraining, reeducation, punishment, etc. until she "shaped up."  What it would never mean is "OK, you get your way.  Go."

She really relished that and took comfort in knowing just how completely owned she was.  She didn't seem to have a disobedient bone in her body but she knew that developing one would be rather futile because her owner would be obeyed one way or the other and would squelch such nonsense.  I loved reading about her dynamic and would have to say ours has developed rather similarly.

I know some find it hard to swallow but there are owners who really mean "forever owned" when the relationship begins.  Yes, we live in a free country and no one's slavery here is legally binding.  Noted.  However, some of us have owners who aren't willing to see us "hit the highway," disobedience or not.  It's comforting to know that, for me, "owned" and "forever" really mean just that.  Not that I ever plan it, but sudden and reoccurring disobedience ain't gonna get me a bus ticket.  I know it would earn me correction, punishment, and whatever else it took for however long it took to remedy the situation and get things back on track.

I wish I could have made this more clear and concise but hopefully I've made some bit of sense.  Great post, littlesarbonn.................luci



NuevaVida -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 8:10:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
I wish I could have made this more clear and concise but hopefully I've made some bit of sense.  Great post, littlesarbonn.................luci


Hi luci, you made perfect sense to me, in fact, you spelled it out in a way I had never considered before.

I always wondered about that aspect of a relationship, too, where, rather than trying to understand why there was a problem, the sub/slave would be exited out.  Maybe I'm jaded now, but I don't believe in "I'll own you forever" anymore, for my own personal reasons.  In my case, it wasn't a case of disobedience but a case of it got too difficult for the master to continue forward, despite endless promises of "forever."  But that's not what the OP was referring to.

I never much understood the trend of "obey at all times or out the door you go," but KoM and kyra have described why that is the case for them and in their case I understand it.  In most other cases, however, it does seem like laziness on the part of the dom, or lack of investment in the relationship/dynamic.  My perspective could be incorrect, but I am often left with that impression.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 12:46:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

Yeah, I kind of expected that response from you (that's not a negative or a criticism by the way....just have gotten to know you over the years and the dynamic you've often talked about). The question I ask really isn't about that disobedient kind of submissive/slave who then gets shown the door. That's a pretty simple cause and effect situation that I think most of us understand just having been in the scene for as long as we have.

No, what I'm seeing is something a little different, and that hasn't really been inherent in the types of responses I've read from you, so that's why I'm continuing to clarify it. This is an attitude of dominants who don't even consider "training" to be part of the mix, that submissives come to them pre-trained and have already achieved Plato's perfection standards, and THEN if they don't live up to EXTREMELY high expectations, they will be shown the door. It's a perceived attitude that indicates that the dominants aren't interested in any of the work of cultivating a slave to be what they want, but have expectations the slave WILL BE exactly what they want or will be shown the door.



Ahhhhhhhhh but sarbonn, while there are dominants who do not want to put the work in and who expect perfection since the submissive has had prior dominants and should therefore know what she is doing and understand the D/s dynamic while the dominant forgets this is a BRAND-NEW dynamic for the submissive...let's not forget the submissives out there who are quite upfront about telling you they "don't need to be trained, they are not a dog/pony/choose your animal here".  You know...some of these are the ones who tell you what every other Master/Mistress/Grand Puba Mentor  taught them when they tell you what you are doing wrong when you try to train them to your way.  The ones who don't understand why you are not pleased with their "kneeling" position...after all, it is "true" kajira kneeling.



slaveluci -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 4:43:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Hi luci, you made perfect sense to me, in fact, you spelled it out in a way I had never considered before.

Hello darling and thank you.
quote:

Maybe I'm jaded now, but I don't believe in "I'll own you forever" anymore, for my own personal reasons.  In my case, it wasn't a case of disobedience but a case of it got too difficult for the master to continue forward, despite endless promises of "forever."
I do understand.  I'm sorry that's how it worked out for you.  You deserve better.  But you have, as always, inspired me with your positive outlook and determination to charge onward, having learned and benefitted from the experience[:)]
quote:

I never much understood the trend of "obey at all times or out the door you go," but KoM and kyra have described why that is the case for them and in their case I understand it

Same here.  It's not exactly how my own relationship works but Kyra has explained how that works for them and I always think of that when this topic comes up.  For them, it seems to work splendidly.  
quote:

In most other cases, however, it does seem like laziness on the part of the dom, or lack of investment in the relationship/dynamic.  My perspective could be incorrect, but I am often left with that impression.

Yes, I usually am as well.  I don't think you're ever incorrect[;)].................luci



NuevaVida -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 4:58:59 PM)

Thank you, luci.  [sm=flowers.gif]



KnightofMists -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 5:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

No, what I'm seeing is something a little different, and that hasn't really been inherent in the types of responses I've read from you, so that's why I'm continuing to clarify it. This is an attitude of dominants who don't even consider "training" to be part of the mix, that submissives come to them pre-trained and have already achieved Plato's perfection standards, and THEN if they don't live up to EXTREMELY high expectations, they will be shown the door. It's a perceived attitude that indicates that the dominants aren't interested in any of the work of cultivating a slave to be what they want, but have expectations the slave WILL BE exactly what they want or will be shown the door.



I believe that I understand what you are getting at with your OP and this followup post.   It seems to me you refering to this society of convenience.  It seems that there are those that don't want or have the desire to put the effort in to make a relationship work.  I have the hardline that willfully disobedience earns you the door... however, what few seem to understand this doesn't equate to a person being prefect or that alot of work doesn't go into the relationship to build it every day  For my girls to achieve obedience they need what I call DOMS success........ Direction, Opportunity, Motivation and the Skills to obey.  if they don't have have those basics...they will never succeed.  It's when they have those basics that allow them to succeed and they choose to willfully disregard and fail to obey.. they will be showing the door. 

Now...
...it takes effort and work to give Direction that is clear and understood. 
...it takes effort and work to ensure the Opportunity to do the task is there
...it takes effort and work to inspire and Motivate the person to want to obey
... it takes effort and work to to understand the Skills needed for the task and to have them learned.


Frankly....... I think some don't want or desire to put in the effort and work.... to succeed.........

Lastly... I don't see this as a Female or Male Dominant issue......... it's a people issue that is not gender specific.



NuevaVida -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 5:26:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Frankly....... I think some don't want or desire to put in the effort and work.... to succeed.........

Lastly... I don't see this as a Female or Male Dominant issue......... it's a people issue that is not gender specific.



I agree with you on both counts.



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