Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (Full Version)

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littlesarbonn -> Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 12:06:01 PM)

Yeah, the title sounds a bit long winded, and I apologize for that. But here's the crux of the idea behind this post:

When I first came onto the scene, I seem to remember that when I interacted with dominants there was a definite "someone's in charge" and "someone's not" attitude to the interchange between actors. However, one thing I've started to notice is that there seems to be more and more "my way or the highway" commentaries rather than "do what I say or there will be Hell to pay for it".

Let me further explain. Think of it this way: In the old days, if I was in a relationship with a dominant woman, and we were having a one on one conversation, I could almost guarantee that at some point there would be a foot putting down moment that would go something like: "No, you will do things THIS way." There would generally be a lot of direct reinforcement (whether positive or negative). Now, I seem to read A LOT of postings by dominants who state: "If he/she ever got out of line like that, he/she would be shown the door." No, "there would be Hell to pay"; just the door. It's only recently that I've started to notice so much of it in the current era.

Now, my observations also show somewhat of a difference between male dominants and female dominants. From what I have observed (keeping in mind that I don't intimately interact with male dominants and their submissives so I get a lot of this information second hand or from reading of posts on the boards) is that male dominants don't seem to have this type of reaction with their submissives. There seems to be a lot of direct enforcement (at least from what I can read...and for all I know it's a bunch of guys sharing their fantasies and they've never had a real partner ever). The female dominants I read tend to repeat dismissal mantras far more than the male dominants. I understand the whole "there's ten male submissives to every female dominant" thing, but it causes me to wonder if that realization is changing the very foundation of dominant/submissive behavior.

Now, I know there are those dominants out there who will state this is not the case for them. But one thing I've also noticed is that there are those who have said this in the past, and I've directly observed that they still manage to post "if he does that, he's so out of here" statements, meanwhile commenting that that's not what they do (in threads like this one). So I kind of wonder if this is an attitudinal behavior that some people aren't even aware that they have.

I somewhat reluctantly posted this because I have started to tire of trying to start conversations here that end up with unthinking, automatic, pre-thought responses or one liner jokes that stopped being funny decades ago. Also, for some reason, practically every topic I start ends up getting moved, which makes me suspect there's a moderator that's just never liked me, but that's another story.



thetammyjo -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 12:19:23 PM)

I'm one of those people who will honestly say "If it is a problem again, there's the door, don't let it hit your ass on the way out."

Why do I say that?

Because I do formal training period before I own someone. During that 3+ month period we very carefully and purposely learn about whether or not this person would be a good addition to our household and they whether or not joining is a good idea for the individual.

Therefore before I'd even call someone a slave or allow him/her to call me "mistress' we should be fully aware of what is required and have agreed to that.

Everyone has their issues, nothing changes that and you should work through them unless they threaten the household. The fact that we as a household go to monthly therapy to help us all work on our issues is a strong sign we are willing and able to work on the dynamic but the dynamic itself is not being challenged in the family.

I don't dismiss for those things. I dismiss for repeated disobedience because that is frankly one person not holding up their end of things and effectively ending them. In other words, I dismiss for things that attack the core of the dynamic such as one of us not working on maintaining that core.

Someone who wants to be punished and made to obey isn't a person who should join my household in the first place. Someone who just can't figure out why they can't obey needs to work on self first before joining my household.

For others it might well be a desire to just find someone better but for me its a matter of the reality of the dynamic. We don't each support it? It does exist and thus dismissal is more a formality than an ending of the dynamic which has all ready disappeared with repeated disobedience and defiance.

I get enough crap like that in my mundane life. Why would I chose to put up with that in my created household?



littlesarbonn -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 12:25:37 PM)

Yeah, I kind of expected that response from you (that's not a negative or a criticism by the way....just have gotten to know you over the years and the dynamic you've often talked about). The question I ask really isn't about that disobedient kind of submissive/slave who then gets shown the door. That's a pretty simple cause and effect situation that I think most of us understand just having been in the scene for as long as we have.

No, what I'm seeing is something a little different, and that hasn't really been inherent in the types of responses I've read from you, so that's why I'm continuing to clarify it. This is an attitude of dominants who don't even consider "training" to be part of the mix, that submissives come to them pre-trained and have already achieved Plato's perfection standards, and THEN if they don't live up to EXTREMELY high expectations, they will be shown the door. It's a perceived attitude that indicates that the dominants aren't interested in any of the work of cultivating a slave to be what they want, but have expectations the slave WILL BE exactly what they want or will be shown the door.



chamberqueen -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 12:56:03 PM)

I wrote a post today saying that I would dismiss someone for a certain type of action, so this post hit home to me.  If I had a long term relationship and there was a problem I would handle it very differently than if it was a new relationship and someone willfully disobeyed.  In either case I would try to find out the root of the problem and see the best way to work it through.  However, that being said, I know that I have others lined up who would like to be my sub and that I would have no problem finding a replacement.

The things that would most likely make me dismiss someone are willful disobedience just to prove how "strong" they are, blatant and continued dishonesty, or feeling that my safety was threatened.  I know Doms that would expel a sub for the same things.  I go for a deep mental bond with a person and would never simply "throw" them away because they irked me a little. 



Bstardsbitch -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 1:48:46 PM)

The way Sir explained this to me was that there were some things He would work on and give opportunities for the behaviour to be changed. There were other things that warranted instant dismissal.  It works both ways, there are some things I could forgive and work with, other things............now way...now how I'd walk.

Just my opinion.
xx



Lockit -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 1:57:30 PM)

I have never worked from a base of taking control from moment one.  There are things I would end right away and will not tolerate, but most often I will discuss things consistantly.  How our discussions manifest will often determine where things will go or not go.  Being fifty years old and with multiple relationships of all kinds behind me, there are things I can see right off the bat, that will end things and I will show someone to the door.  Most often I will work with someone and see why they do what they do and will see if there is any room for growth.  If they are resistant to growth, then it is a door moment.  This is typically a new or newer relationship.  In an older relationship, things will be at a certain place already and it is a major offense that gets a door moment.  I think there are many variables.

I think that at sites such as this one and online we often have to take a harder stance on things than one might in person.  After so many emails and so many games, one might tend to be very firm in what they will or will not put up with and you can see this 'door showing' much faster because of where we are and what we are doing. 

As for male dominant's and female dominant's being different, I see what you mean.  I can find reasons for this or that and understand them even if I don't agree or find them something I am doing.  That is a very deep well and I'm not sure that I would wish to take a dip in it! lol

When you have seen a femdom say something like that... what has the topic been?   A lie... laziness... insecurity... emotional damage... too kinky... not kinky enough... ect.  I think the reasons for showing the door are a big factor here.



AAkasha -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 3:54:27 PM)



When people are talking about hypotheticals it's easy to say they'd have lots of very strict guidelines and punt prospects for failing them.  But the reality is that a few things will factor into someone's reasoning for getting rid of a 'disobedient' slave:

* Length of time in the relationship (1 day, online?  Or 3 months in real life?)
* Amount of investment so far (no one likes to give up if they've worked on it, and it's a minor glitch)
* Level of attraction (let's face it, if there's super chemistry, one might be willing to overlook a problem or try to correct it).

Add into that equation the big one:  The type of offense. Lying?  Cheating? Stealing? Forgeting an assignment? 

A lot of femdoms talk about dismissing guys early on and it's because it's EARLY on.  Not much has been invested.  And I think femdoms become so jaded that a few "minor" screw ups in the beginning might not be forgivable because we've seen before that these little "minor" things are usually leading to bigger things down the road, and it's better to cut your losses.  In general, they have to do with effort, attention to detail, and honesty. Those might be "minor" things if you are already in a solid beginning of a relationship with good chemistry - a guy maybe is slacking in some areas, but great in others, etc.  But if you are just starting out and he's showing that kind of stuff, ladies cannot help but think he's in it for his own needs and that's why the other stuff is sliding.

I see subs early on having an incredibly desire to follow every instruction to the letter. If it's a fun, hot, erotic task.  But give them an assigment like, "Email me your thoughts and perspectives on this topic before you go to bed," and they forget. Over and over again?  Bad sign.

Akasha



DMFParadox -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 4:09:01 PM)

I've noticed the same trend.  It seems to come and go in cycles, as people become more experienced they threaten dismissal less, and when the complaints drop below a visible threshold a new crop of plainants show up to say "Well, I'm not afraid to show my sub the door, so they better watch out."

While being able to walk away is a valuable tool in mastering a sub or slave, the point that these people should remember is that if they are masters of their own lives already, then they are masters of the relationship as well, and the submissive is simply sharing it; there's usually no need to kick them out, just find ways to use them beneficially.  If you're truly in control of your own priorities, then there's little they can do to change that from a subordinate standpoint; you don't have to tell them they're gone, just exclude them from your activities unless they prove themselves useful.



LadyPact -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 5:38:17 PM)

First off, good post.  I happen to think it's rather observant of you.

One thing I do want to mention about all of this is that, it is the internet.  There are some folks out there who talk a good game, but their persona here on the boards is nothing like what they are in real life.  Sure, they do the big, bad Dominant routine to make themselves look good, when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

Now, I haven't been around as long as some.  Compared to others, I've been around for quite a bit.  Recently, I took someone under consideration and the truth of the matter is, I find that I still use a lot of the same methods as I did with many of the ones I had before him.  I can't tell you how many times in the last month or so I've used phrases like remember who has the authority around here or I have the final decision.  I'm really not the foot stomping type in general, as I feel there are certain things that I say that should bring My feelings on an issue to help close a matter.  Yes, that even holds true if he disobeys.  My phrase for that is it seems we have something to talk about.

With that said, I do think there are certain offenses where a person should be released.  Cheating was one that you mentioned that I think falls in the category.  If someone is My sub, that means he belongs to Me.  There should be no reason for his penis to be anywhere that I haven't approved of.  Also, I have no issue with saying that I have dismissed a sub for lying in the past.  Like one of the other posters mentioned, it had a lot to do with the amount of time in the dynamic, and something I wouldn't tolerate from that particular sub.

As opposed to that, I've had to punish clip exactly once.  It's not something he ever wants to experience again.  One time was enough.  There's been one time that bleaux has disobeyed and the matter was handled.  Neither of them want to disappoint Me again.  That's how it should be.

No, I'm not the 'don't let the door hit you on the way out' type with either one of them.  I'm not looking to release either of them, but they also know that I'm the Dominant around here.  I am the one in control and if either of them don't want to give it to Me, there is a method to fix that.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 5:47:50 PM)

This just brought something to mind...

A few months into my relationship with my Owner, she asked advice on these boards about how to properly handle a situation involving me and a now former friend who was making some very uncomfortable advances.  It was something that we both knew had to be taken care of, and we ended up doing it our way.  I cut this other girl off immediately.  At no point in time was this ever a problem between my Owner and myself.  It was a problem between me and somebody else...a problem that I handled with her advice.

Still, when she posted about it, more than a few people posted something along the lines of, "He's just testing you, get rid of him."

The very fact that people thought this way has troubled me a bit ever sense...

There is only one thing that would garner an immediate dismissal from my Owner, and that isn't going to happen.  We don't consider one another expendable, so any dismissal/uncollaring at all would be extremely difficult.

DV's Fox



DesFIP -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 5:56:07 PM)

Unfortunately it shows that too many people think of relationships as disposable. The truth is, the longer the relationship has gone on the less likely such an ultimatum is to occur. There simply is too much to risk.

Equally true is that the longer the relationship has been, the less likely people are to post about it.

For us, what might have garnered punishment or lectures in the beginning now are just a wake up that there's something we need to talk out. If I'm acting out of line, there's a reason. And he wants to know what it is. The my way or the highway types aren't that interested in knowing what's going on in the heart and mind, they just want their morning coffee (or whatever).



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 6:13:37 PM)

I think that this has some validity in my case. I am not terribly inclined to keep someone in a relationship who clearly does not want to be there. Now, that being said, I do a good bit of training, and we have a very prolonged probationary period. Typically, we discover during the probationary period if there is someone who isn't going to be a good fit for our situation. If there is someone who really is not inclined to yield in submission, it will typically show up in the six to nine months of probation. For some servants where there is enough to work with that they could be something really special, but there are enough issues that we are concerned about the impact, we may even lengthen the probationary period -- we've gone as high as two years before the person resolved hir own issues and made a definite decision one way or the other. By the same token, on occasion we find someone who is such a natural fit with our family that we shorten the probationary period for them. It is certainly true that during the probationary period, the typical response that we have is "My way or the Highway".

Now, once someone has made it through that probationary period, our situation changes dramatically. Once that person has actually made it through to a formal collared-servant status, the response changes to "My way -- or it's a Highway to Hell". For the servants who embrace their service to the point where they become bond-servants, yielding their lives completely to the service of the house, it becomes My Way-No Highway Option.

I think that part of what you are seeing may be reflected in similar patterns, where female dominants are spending more time cultivating our servants for the long haul... and cutting away the chaff. This allows us to dedicate our dominance to those who really want to serve, and helps keep us from being burned out by the overwhelming numbers of "not-ready-to-submit", "not-really-a-good-fit" or "just-testing-the-water situations out there".

Calla Firestorm




Skyfire -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 6:30:58 PM)

I have seen this attitude for years, so I do not think it has been a slow change.  I think you will find that many of the more experienced players here know exactly what they want and are not willing to settle.  I also think you see this more abundantly with women because they are less likely to put up with bs for a pretty face or a hot body.  I know my hormones have made me make a few bad decisions in the past with girls I knew would be wrong for me.

I guess the way you are stating things may be a bit harsher than how I approach this.  I am clear with what I want up front, if a girl feels she can live up to these standards then we give it a shot. If there is no chemistry, or if she simply cannot live up to my expectations there is no hope of a future in the relationship.  If anything it would be more cruel to lead them on and keep them around until you found something better. 

If I have misunderstood please correct me, but all in all I think this attitude should be commended.  If more people were honest with their wants and needs there would be less drama.



Brownbohemian -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/11/2008 7:33:33 PM)

In my profile I did have the highway statement and I stand by it. However, it does not have anything to do with my inability to put my foot down (not that I am taking offense). It was because I was getting guys who came in under the assumption that they were in conrol b/c the were the sub and that without them I couldn't be a D. I know that sounds crazy but you wouldn't believe how many guys claim to be subs and immediately try to manipulate you into doing what the want, even after you put your foot down. They got a kick out of pissing me off and by disobeying felt as though they could steer the session in any direction they pleased. I get it, but I sure as hell don't agree with it. But that is just my perspective.



DominantDamsel -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/12/2008 1:01:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shawn1066

There is only one thing that would garner an immediate dismissal from my Owner, and that isn't going to happen.  We don't consider one another expendable, so any dismissal/uncollaring at all would be extremely difficult.

DV's Fox


Excellent point and exactly what I was thinking about in regard to the topic. For me, if I'm invested, there is no mere dismissal. There will be anything but..

One of the most enjoyable aspects of a D/s relationship is taking the control and keeping it. From my perspective, this involves testing and trial and error, for both. Being willing to quit too easily shows a lack of confidence and investment, as far as I'm concerned.




Honsoku -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/12/2008 1:21:14 PM)

Looking from the outside in, I think this is the result of several factors;

1: There is the appearance of a massive difference in the supply/demand for female and male doms. This has been especially highlighted due to the internet. Since there appears to be a much greater demand for female doms than male ones, they are able to apply much stricter standards than their male counterparts.

2: The high percentage of male submissives just looking for fantasy material has lead to a very low tolerance of problems. Any problem with a male submissive tends to be seen first as a sign that the person is just looking to get their rocks off.

3: Male submissives appear to be much more tolerant of that sort of behavior than female submissives. There appears to be a strongly reinforced fantasy image of the "harsh unforgiving mistress" and I think a lot of female doms either consciously or subconsciously play into that image because that is how they think they are supposed to be, that that is what it means to be dominant.



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/12/2008 2:09:43 PM)

I don't know Sarbonn. There are a few things that would cause me to show them the door, mostly it would be discovering that me or mine was in danger because of them. And I don't mean just physical danger. That's a biggie, don't get me wrong. Our rules are pretty simple, we don't allow illegal substances on our property... period. If it was a person that was bringing illegal substances on to our property I would see that as putting our home and freedom in danger. And I don't care if it's a sub, slave, friend or relative... they're gone... you know the "Do not pass go, do not collect $200" type gone.
 
Beyond that I believe that most things are fixable with open and honest communication. I've suffered from the exact opposite. Sub/slave types that come in and aren't willing to give it the time and effort needed to allow us, as a group, to grow together. But seeing as how my life has been laid out on these forums and dissected in some pretty harsh ways in the past but the people that generally go on what they can read between the lines, I can absolutely see your point. Most likely I'm guilty of it too, but I try really hard to keep in mind that there are two sides to every story... well, three, but you know that already.
 
As I've said to many subs/slave types... no, I don't honestly believe that my way is always the best way... if it were I'd be filthy rich by now... lol
 
Jewel



otkitten -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/16/2008 7:02:56 PM)

I suspect that the type of situation you are talking about is more common in this online milieu.  The majority of lifestyle folks I know in real life are not like this ... although there are a few.

I have been fortunate in having a Master who isn't  playing at this lifestyle as if it were a game.  During one of our initial conversations when considering each other, Master made it clear to me that there were behaviors that would be deal breakers.  These were laid down for me as rules. One of these rules is that I cannot stop communicating with Him.  If I shut Him out, He would be done.

He has also promised me (and in return I have promised Him)  "a day after."  Meaning if something happened between us that was so hurtful or angering in the heat of the moment that He released me, or I requested release, that we would wait a day (or as long as it took to cool off) and discuss it.  If we were ever to part, He wants us to part as friends.  

He has made mistakes.  Early on when things would get frustrating, He'd say maybe He'd have to let me go  ... sort of thinking outloud ... until I pointed out to Him that He kept doing this and that it was making me very unsure and feeling insecure.  It ends up this was due to some carry over from His last lifestyle relationship.  He was having a difficult time trusting me because of things that had happened in the past.  But, He held true to His own deal-breaker rules and kept talking with me; we kept working with each other to get through it and move on.  

There are no easy outs for us ... we are quite committed to each other and to this relationship.  At present, there isn't anything we can foresee happening between us that is not fixable.  Do we both make mistakes, do things to hurt, annoy or that bothers each other?  Yep .. we're human and in a relationship.  The important thing is how we deal with it ... and showing me the door isn't His style.  If it's His bad, He encourages me to give Him feedback and He listens to it. If it's my bad, He'll correct me, punish me if needed.  And, well, that's part of what our relationship is based on.

If I read someone's post that they'd show a sub the door over x, y, or z ... I would suspect a wannebe poser, and not a naturally dominant person who is genuine in their search for a submissive partner. 

Rules, expectations, consequences are all things that are worked out within the context of a relationship.  If they're just hypotheticals posted on the forums ... well ... then it's not advice or relationship testimonials I'd take to heart.




E2Sweet -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 12:23:57 AM)

As a number of posters have already touched on, it seems to be an issue more with relationships where there is only service and no (or little) inherent emotional attachment. Basically, in this instance, its fairly easy for the dominant to put his/her foot down and give the sub an ultimatum and be able to live with the consequences either way, since the heart strings aren't being tugged-on. On the other hand, when we get emotionally entangled, we tend to not be quite so quick to dismiss those we have feelings for, and not to mention, in general we also tend to put a bit more effort into those people that we have connected to emotionally.

I'll also agree that this seems to be a bit more prevalent in female dominants with male submissives, and I'd be willing to bet it's often because the numbers support the idea that male sub are easier to replace than females.

I wonder if one could also argue that perhaps male subs are often a bit harder to handle in terms of their behavior overall, in comparison to female submissives, who often seem to have somewhat clearer and more sincere motivations in submitting to a dominant, and perhaps require less extreme measures to persuade them to fall in line with the dominant's wishes.



IronBear -> RE: Slow change over time in dynamic of control in bdsm behavior (9/17/2008 3:30:04 AM)

On a personal basis, the basic dynamic will not change over time but is more likely to get closer. However if for the slave the dynamic changes then it is time to discuss her future with the home..



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