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RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 3:35:38 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress
Every label that we have is subject to the interpretation of those using and giving the labels.

It isn't just that but also the nature of Dominance and submission....

There are a number of lovely submissive girls out here on the London scene that are every bit submissive... but the chemistry isn't there, I am not drawn to reach out, make them Mine and control them. Does that make Me a non-Dominant?

My girl knows many Dominants that she gets on well with but whom she doesn't feel that draw to serve. Does that make her a non-submissive?

Together, the chemistry is right, ying and yang, I am drawn to take total control, she is drawn to submit completely. I am her Master, she is My slave, My property.

I can only say that I don't see someone as submissive to ME.... I can't say catagoricaly she isn't a submissive as I am not seeing her in the context of that right chemistry.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to yourMissTress)

Post #: 41

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 4:47:13 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Hypothetical situation:

M-"No, I mean is your goal to please your partner in whatever ways he finds pleasing, so long as it stays within your pre-discussed limits of course. Say one of the things that the dominant finds pleasing is coming home to a clean house?"

W-"Oh no, screw that....I don't want to be a slave.

Now that I would describe as not service oriented. And as someone new looking to explore physically first. But I wouldn't say she is definitively not submissive, just not with that man in the ways he wants and defines.

But then, I'm not service oriented and I'm not obedience wired. My raison d'etre is emotional transparency. I'm still submissive, even if not compatible with someone who expects all subs to get thrills of delight from cleaning house.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 42

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 5:22:13 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

There is a friend of mine who has been told by a number of well-meaning people who have combined years of experience in the lifestyle that she is a bottom. she continues to think of herself and call herself a slave because of the perceived status associated with that term.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure why someone would cling to a label that didn't fit them and risk always ending up in relationships that are not a good fit for them because of it....just because of the "status" associated with it. I don't really understand that status. Why do so many perceive that any one term is "better" than another? I think people would be a lot happier if they would just be true to who they are.

Where does status come from, anyway?

While hardly scientifically accurate, my own impression is that the majority of dominant men on CM are seeking a slave. Follow that closely with men who give the idea that they'd prefer a slave, but will accept a sub (and make her into a slave). Then there are, of course, men who don't differentiate and simply say they want a sub/slave. Still, a good number of men will say only that they want a submissive. Less often but still common, you'll see men looking specifically for "little girls", "pets", or some other personal variation. By far, I'd have to say the least seen are men saying they simply want a bottom.

So there, you have a hierarchy of demand. A woman coming onto CM and browsing through the profiles of male dominants would quickly get the idea that a slave is desired by most.

lol...Who doesn't want to be highly desired and in demand? Especially when we're talking about a personals site?

I can easily see where an inexperienced woman who possesses "submissive-type" tendencies... those characteristics typically placed on the small side of the slash... might try to place herself into the category where she believes she has the best chance of finding someone... especially if she finds the idea of being a slave or a submissive to be attractive in her fantasies. To admit to herself that she's something other than slave or sub is to narrow her pool of potential matches.

They figure they can deal with the details on a one-to-one basis... later.

You raise a very good point. i don't know as i have ever heard someone D or T type saying they are just looking for a bottom. i have heard more times than i can count the "just a sub" or "only a bottom", so i think it is a combination of things that create the desire to call oneself a slave or a submissive when one is a bottom. Also i think some of it may be being misinformed for some, thinking the desires to be on the receiving end of the sensations is the same thing as being submissive. Lack of self-awareness, lack of information, lack of people looking for what a person has to offer, i think all of those things combine to have people call themselves something that they are not.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to TreasureKY)

Post #: 43

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 7:17:50 AM

DavidS8ist

Posts: 97
Joined: 7/8/2004
From: NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Often I hear a submissive who says "He told me I'm not submissive" and that is followed by cries of "He's not a real dom....run away". <snip>Sometimes they say it because you're really not.

I'm just as guilty as the next when it comes to jumping to that conclusion. I admit that when I hear it, coming from the submissive persuasion, I do the eyeroll thing. But....what if it is said by someone whose intentions are to help someone who is new and trying to find their way? <snip>
Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?

To answer the easiest question first, yes, there *can* be situations where no offense is intended, where it's positive feedback.

Now, to reality. *I've* never heard "(s)he's not a real dom" used any way but as a perjurative. And it really speaks to several peeves of mine. First, I don't know what "a real dom" is. Dominance is a personality trait. It manifests between two or more people. This idea that someone can wake up and decide to become "a dom" or "a sub" just makes no sense to me. So when I hear "not a real...", my mind clicks to "...for you, perhaps, but for someone else, perhaps the real deal."

Second, it often seems that one hears that most about on-line interactions. IM's that start with "Kneel, bitch" or "I'm your new master," or e-mails on the second day that outline the entire dynamic are usually a good sign the "dom" is clueless, just as "How may I serve you sir" as an initial correspondence are a pretty good sign the "sub" has read the Beauty or Marketplace series one too many times.

Lastly, "...not a true..." so often means "I didn't listen to his expectations, he didn't listen to mine. But instead of simply saying I/we made a bad choice, let me trash him to regain my dignity." It's a poor ploy, but an easy one to cop to.

D.
"You don't know how to get something done on the ground until somebody's shot at and tried to kill you on the ground. Then you get the joke."
- Col. Jack Jacobs [ret.]

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 44

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 7:44:21 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
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This whole topic cracks me up.   There are people running around making "you're not a real such and such thing" remarks every day.

Mind you, when it comes to BDSM, there are some DOMs that are prone to saying this to inspire a submissive to prove themselves.   The fact is this only works if the submissive or person desires to prove themselves.

Hell, let's get away from this being a BDSM thing altogether. Look at basic human inteaction.

I've recently joined a new band, a little over a month ago.  In their eyes, I'm a "real guitar player" and I can sing too. They shared with me horror stories about other guys they had tried out.  Mind you, all these other people owned guitars and could play something on the guitar. So, does this make them fake Guitar players? They clearly did not show up with "air guitars" you know.

I've often compared BDSM to music on here. In fact, I simply like to make comparisons to other things in life in general. Keeps me somewhat sane. Where I don't have some fantasy notion of BDSM shoved up my ass.

Now, I'm going to continue on with this thought comparison for a moment. What's a real Guitar player for a Punk Rock Band, compared to a Death Metal Band, compared to a Classic Rock Band, compared to a Country Band?   Clearly Johnny X the speed Metal Lead Guitar Player probally is not a good fit for the Good Old Boys Country Band.

The same can be said when it comes to people in the BDSM lifestyle. Darth the Hardcore TPE Master Sadist, and Sally the Little Girl looking for a Daddy Dom.. Well are probally not a good fit for one another.

Everybody bitches and complains about So and So not being a Real or true such and such. Like everybody is some sort of game player.

When it comes down to Game playing, more time then not We are the ones playing ourselves. Expecting that everybody should conform to our ideals, standards, wishes, wants and desires.   Sorry, the world does not work that way.

Dark and Sally, might met on a joint such as Collarme. Hook up for some IM chat session. Both of them walking away from it, making negative remarks. Dark is telling Sally she's not a real true submissive because Needles, Extreme Impact play, and Sharing is out of the question. Sally is telling Dark he's not a Real Dom because he's not into the nurturing and growth aspects and he's a cold hearted Bastard.

The reality of it is, Dark is a Dom and Sally is a submissive. They just ain't right for one another.

Lord, people bitching about things. When they are just playing themselves in their own minds.

Think some people missed the Lesson in life about Diversity. Some people have this Leather Based notion of BDSM where they proclaim anybody who's not Leather is not real.

So many people wishing and wanting BDSM to become more Exclusive to thier thoughts and ideals.

Knock Knock Knock... It's wake up call time. Can you feel the monkey bitch slapping a greasy glob of reality upside the face.   If you do, are you quick to blame it on somebody else for not being Real and True, or do you stop and think rationally that you and them just ain't a good match.

I'd never call a country guitar player, not a true guitar player. I'd never call somebody who's been only playing guitar for a few monthes not a real guitar player either. I would never call a kid playing punk rock guitar in his attic not a real guitar player.   Now Air guitarist, those ain't real guitar players... They are just wanna be's.. along with those Guitar Hero Game players, that well could not play a real guitar to save their ass.

Only people who pretend to be into BDSM, but are not. Are not being Real.   If somebody is new to BDSM and has started doing it, or has done some of the BDSM basics. Well, me thinks those people are being for real about it. Experiences, Skills, activities, interests, and personalities all are rather varied.

It takes all kinds of different people to make the world the interesting place that it is.

I do tend to see a lot of people trying to over compensate at times on the message board. Playing their various Orientations to the hilt.   Life moving in fluid stereotypical patterns.   That's one thing about stereotypes, you can always predict how other people behave when they have adopted a stereotype to live by!! lol..

Yes, I have my own POV's and perspectives when it comes to BDSM. I know I can be a bit of a jackass at times when it comes down to expressing myself.   I'll make some smart ass remarks at times.

I tend to get rather heated about topics such as True Doms can never be masochistic.   I have this sadomaso spin to my nature.   OK, I love getting some tender loving pain from time to time.   Does not change the D/s relationship dynamics, and I like to maintain control of things. The proverbial topping from the bottom. However, at times.. I trust somebody to do what they are doing to be to my liking.   I don't need to Mircomanage a Body massges to death you know. But La De Dugh.   I'll argue or debate and make my points on this one until the Cows come home or somebody shoots the Damn Crowing Rooster.

I suppose to somebody out there, I'm not a real or true DOM. Hell, actually I don't want to be everybodys real and true DOM. If I was, it would scare me.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 45

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 7:50:50 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

FR~....don't know if it just got overlooked but the OP was about instances where someone may tell another such a thing in a POSITIVE way to help them to figure out who they are. I think we are all very well aware of instances where such a thing gets crammed down someone's throat negatively.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 46

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 8:48:56 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline

I just get further confuzzled when I read some of the responses. It seems there are lots of folks that subscribe to the "a label is only defined by what I (and my partner) think it means" line of thought. So we have come to a place where labels really have no universal meaning, even at their most basic level. And yet....people CLING to these labels, fiercely defend their right to call themselves by these labels, take offense and fight tooth and nail anyone who even suggests their own idea of that label is different. Why the emotion? Why the fierceness? Why the offense? If the one thing that most people seem to agree on is that there is no agreed upon definition for any label....why bother?

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 8/20/2008 8:49:37 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 47

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 9:07:01 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline

In my opinion that goes back to the status issue and the assinine hierarchy list that came about about different levels of submission, that a bottom is seen as less than a submissive who is seen as less than a slave, meaning of less worth or value. Giving the impression that if one has really "arrived" in the BDSM lifestyle, then that person is a slave. Why we still subscribe to that way of thinking may be partly because of insecurities, or some of the issues the TKY mentioned.

For myself, i adamantly refuse to be labelled a slave, although people who have watched my interaction with the Dominants that i serve say that i am a slave. The reason that i refuse the "title" is (a) because i'm not owned and (b) i don't want the responsiblity that i associate with the term.

As i mentioned in a previous post i do see a good number of s-types who call themselves slave for the status that is associated with the term in the lifestyle and i think that is the primary reason people will fight to the death, so to speak, for the right to call themselves a slave.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 48

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 11:41:44 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
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I'm going to come off sounding rather snarky here. I've actually passed on women who were perhaps a little too submissive for my taste. Meaning that they actually had very little sense of themself.

I want somebody who has some form or sense of self. Complete with hobbies, real life interests in things.   I want somebody who's creative and intelligent.

If somebody soul and only mission and purpose in life to have me as their complete center of the universe... well it feels a little creepy to me.

Don't get me wrong here, I'll take D/s to the TPE level. However, the person still have to have some other interests in life beside me.

Now for some Doms, these girls I've passed on might be thier Killer Ideal Slave or submissive.   However, it's not mine.

Labels are just generalized concepts.   D/s is D/s is D/s... I'd love for somebody who's into Art or drawing enjoy that, and Hell it would give a warm and fuzzy feeling seeing the things they do. Even more so, if they make me stuff and give of their talents.

There's something to be said for the Quality of the person that is submitting.

A fucking D/s relationship alone by no means is the ultimate end to what pleases or displeases me about somebody.

I'm not into mindless robotic slave girls who take no interest in anything else besides me.

I don't care how fucking submissive somebody is to what Extreme. There are other factors involved beside submission alone.

Everybody gets too damn wrapped up in labels that they can't see their ass from a hole in a ground when it comes to other aspects of a D/s relationship. Wait, the other aspects of life.

Sure, I could probally find the most submissive women on the face of the Earth.. however Do I really want to be with her because she's the most submissive women or for other factors and reasons?   Pfffffttt...

Sorry for this rant.......

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 49

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 11:48:36 AM

Owner4SexSlave

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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My apologies for my rant on this thread. I read what somebody posted and it really rubbed me the wrong way. No names mentioned. However it appears that some people really get too caught up in labels and D/s for their own good at times.

If I was stuck on my own label and had D/s shoved so deep inside my mind, I would have never had the great experience of being in a Dom couple relationship.

Helping somebody figure out more about themselves is always good. The more people experience and do something.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 50

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 12:14:06 PM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline

This is my experience, for what its worth. After numerous episodes of anguishing over who or what I am...I can deeply relate to the original post. Just as a quick FYI- when I refer to past responses from people, I'm referring to those I've met in person.

It took me some time, and self-actualization to accept that some of the people who have declared definitively that I am NOT submissive, or that I WAS dominant, really weren't addressing the depth of who I am. They were simply seeing in me, those traits that fit with what they wanted or needed from me - or weren't getting from me. I've had a few tell me I wasn't submissive. Quite a few tell me I was vanilla. No small number tell me I was dominant. None of them were completely off the mark. Any of the previously mentioned labels come naturally to me, but only under the right circumstances. I've been accused, as well, of playing hard to get. Fact is, I'm not playing at all. I am hard to get. After years of anguishing over who I am, what I am ....yadda yadda yadda, I have come to terms with the reality that I'm not for everyone. Nor, would I want to be.

The frst few times I was told by someone I respected, "You are not submissive," I swear I was crushed and filled with self-doubt and anguished introspection. Now, I smile and nod, and agree with them. Nope, I'm not submissive, to that particular person. No blame, no worries.

Yes, criticism can be kindly intended, though I find few people seeking a submissive or dominant as being terribly altruistic, and in those instances - their criticism is usually based off of anger due to perceived rejection.

Sometimes, the comments are simply sour grapes and sometimes they are objective observations intended to be helpful. When such comments are offered to me, I take what I can use - consider the source - and leave behind what isn't of value to me.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 8/20/2008 12:23:58 PM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 51

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 12:52:26 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?

I think there is alot of situation when offense should be taken and wasn't intend as such. However, it really depends on how you say it and even then... sometimes it doesn't matter how you say it.

I agree with what many others have said with regards to the idea that a person may not be submissive to me or I be a Dominant to them. Even though we might agree with this idea... alot of people don't like to hear it.. "I don't see you as a Dominant/Submissiver person" This will particularly sting when you happen to be interested in that person.

Secondly, I think that there is some people that really are trying to be something they are not. In alot of ways.. they are over compensating... taking the particular orientation to an extreme in order to convince others they are X. Most often these individuals can't carry the role out very long... after a couple weeks it will wear thin on most people ability to do the role. Unfortuantely.. I see going to events, munches and the like not much different than going to church... everybody is putting on their Sunday best. It's why I don't tend to trust the first impressions I have of people in these situations. It is something to put in the back of my mind... but I find it's difficult to make such immediate judgements in those types of situations and rarely will make any immediate judgements.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 52

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 1:13:30 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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That reminds me of the first profile I wrote up for here. Oh wow, did I lay the typical bullshit on thick. Pretending to be the supercool female dominant from hell. Such a joke it was!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 53

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 1:16:34 PM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
..It took me some time, and self-actualization to accept that some of the people who have declared definitively that I am NOT submissive, or that I WAS dominant, really weren't addressing the depth of who I am. They were simply seeing in me, those traits that fit with what they wanted or needed from me - or weren't getting from me. ...

Yes, criticism can be kindly intended, though I find few people seeking a submissive or dominant as being terribly altruistic, and in those instances - their criticism is usually based off of anger due to perceived rejection.....

There's a lot to be said regarding the full depth of somebody. I love the way you phrased things in your post.   It's amazing how people see what they want to see, then become frustrated when what they are seeing and getting don't compare. Some people are so altruistic that it encompasses the corner stone of their world.   Just not BDSM, but in their expectations and views of other people. Critics out of their own anger, when their fantasy notions about somebody fail them.   Often it's our fantasies and ideals that fail us, compared to the people being measure to those expectations.

Being a Dominant and submissive is a concept best applied to relationships. I becomes rather subjective when using these concept applied to personalities. Trust me, I would not want my submissive partner to be a doormat to everybody in the whole world. Submissive to me and not to anybody else. I would hope she would be able to fend for herself. However, one can look at Dominant and submissive as being part of ones personality. This is true to limited degree.

I'm a Dominate, however I have no desire to be DOM to everybody and anybody I come into contact with. Other factors come into play, such as being assertive and whatnot. I don't have any problems with assertive submissives. Some people do and proclaim that it's not submissive behavior.

I try not to let personality traits define the D/s relationship. There are people that have Dominant personalities that actually do submit in a D/s relationship. Personality vs. relationship role can be two different animals altogether. Such is the concept of the Laid Back Dom, the sort of easy going DOM.   It's their personality to be kicked back, and not acting like a hard ass boot camp instructor.

When we toss around the labels online. There's a Hyper Focus of making it apply to personalities and not to D/s relationships themselves.

If somebody is casting a label upon somebody due to personality alone, and not looking at the depth and desires of the person. What if somebody who does not have a submissive personality by nature desires to find somebody to sumit to?

I totally stay clear of being anybody's label critic. In fact, I've never once told anybody that they are not a Dom nor a submissive.  I let the other person use the labels they have picked for themself.   Goodness, I know the difference between what D/s is about in a relationship and what D and s means in terms of personalities.   Even with that, some people can be very Dominant with certain people and submissive towards others.   It all depends upon the chemistry.   The formula and reaction really is hard to define or even guess at ahead of time.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 54

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 4:14:30 PM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

FR~....don't know if it just got overlooked but the OP was about instances where someone may tell another such a thing in a POSITIVE way to help them to figure out who they are. I think we are all very well aware of instances where such a thing gets crammed down someone's throat negatively.

I'm sorry, erin, I guess I skipped that part.

I have a "vanilla" friend who has recently asked me to help her find a dominant male to date. I don't think that she is submissive at all, and I told her just that. So we had a rather long talk about why she wants to date a dominant male, what she would want from them, what she would want to be to them. She seeks relationships with men who are more dominant than she is. She wants to give up control and decision making, she wants to give up the lead in a relationship, she wants some kinky and rough sex, and she wants to be pleasing and treasured and cherished. And in return she will worship the ground that the man who can give her all of this, walks on.

I think what she wants to be a princess, but since that's not an option in the CM label department, we settled on submissive. I don't have a clue where this will go for her, but I wish her the best of luck, and look forward to seeing what changes if any take place. Apparently there is more to her than I knew.

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 55

RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/20/2008 5:12:48 PM

StrongSpirit

Posts: 575
Joined: 4/10/2005
Status: offline

Lets assume for the sake of example that you are in fact correct - the person is not a submissive.

Using the words "not a real sub" is similar to saying the N word to a black man.

It may be technically correct, but the insult it embodies, even if you don't mean it as an insult is so huge, that anyone that uses those word has a big problem.

If someone really is a bottom, not a sub, then you should say "You are more of a bottom than a sub." Or maybe "I think you like pain more than submitting."

The word real does NOT provide any helpful information. It refers to the speakers personal definition of sub, bottom, dom, top, which no one but the speaker knows. Worse, there is no real accepted definition. It is never helpful to use.

It is just the speakers attempt to force the rest of the world to abide by their personal sexual beliefs and desires.

Similarly, true, natural, fake also are useless. Like 'real', those words do not communicate anything but arrogance and insults.

We should use our words to communicate, not insult.

< Message edited by StrongSpirit -- 8/20/2008 5:18:34 PM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 56

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