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RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 9:44:36 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It's rarely about the label. It's about the conversation which takes place after the label is announced. Like Raven, to me it's about compatibility and being on the same page even if that page isn't in anyone else's book .. except for one other person.





I'm finding the truth in this more and more.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 10:11:56 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

My assumption at that stage is she is a clueless newbie and doesn't know what a submissive actualy is... note the assumption isn't that she isn't and never will be a submissive. If she learns, is drawn and meets the right person then in time she MAY be.

There is also a difference in saying "I don't see that person as submissive"... and making the catagorical statement that "she isn't a submissive"... people can call themself whatever label they choose, that doesn't mean I will see them that way which shouldn't be an issue unless they are seeking validation from Me... which ain't going to happen.



This is really how I feel about it. Years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of serving a man - he can get his own fucking coffee, that's why he has legs! People change, they grow and they realize that the things that seemed so damn awful to them are actually quite nice. Now I know that I like fetching Val his things even if his legs work perfectly well.

There are also people do not define themselves as submissives but are owned slaves all the same.


_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 12:44:58 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?


Offense, to me, is often related to HOW something is said. "You're not a REAL submissive," is a whole lot more offensive than, "I think you're an awesome bottom." Judgement words like "just", "not real" and "fake" cause people to go on the defensive...which leaves them feeling offended.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 12:46:15 PM   
NeedingMore220


Posts: 615
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
It's rarely about the label. It's about the conversation which takes place after the label is announced. Like Raven, to me it's about compatibility and being on the same page even if that page isn't in anyone else's book .. except for one other person.


Absolutely! 

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 1:24:14 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

There is a friend of mine who has been told by a number of well-meaning people who have combined years of experience in the lifestyle that she is a bottom. she continues to think of herself and call herself a slave because of the perceived status associated with that term.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure why someone would cling to a label that didn't fit them and risk always ending up in relationships that are not a good fit for them because of it....just because of the "status" associated with it. I don't really understand that status. Why do so many perceive that any one term is "better" than another? I think people would be a lot happier if they would just be true to who they are.


Where does status come from, anyway? 

While hardly scientifically accurate, my own impression is that the majority of dominant men on CM are seeking a slave.  Follow that closely with men who give the idea that they'd prefer a slave, but will accept a sub (and make her into a slave).  Then there are, of course, men who don't differentiate and simply say they want a sub/slave.  Still, a good number of men will say only that they want a submissive.  Less often but still common, you'll see men looking specifically for "little girls", "pets", or some other personal variation.  By far, I'd have to say the least seen are men saying they simply want a bottom.

So there, you have a hierarchy of demand.  A woman coming onto CM and browsing through the profiles of male dominants would quickly get the idea that a slave is desired by most.

lol...Who doesn't want to be highly desired and in demand?  Especially when we're talking about a personals site?

I can easily see where an inexperienced woman who possesses "submissive-type" tendencies... those characteristics typically placed on the small side of the slash... might try to place herself into the category where she believes she has the best chance of finding someone... especially if she finds the idea of being a slave or a submissive to be attractive in her fantasies.  To admit to herself that she's something other than slave or sub is to narrow her pool of potential matches.

They figure they can deal with the details on a one-to-one basis... later.


< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 8/19/2008 1:25:58 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 1:29:10 PM   
impishlilhellcat


Posts: 4379
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline 		I was told I wasn't submissive by someone I was involved with for quite awhile. He said it at the end of the relationship. It didn't too much bother me and it got me to thinking. He may be partly right. I know I for sure didn't match his definitive of what submissive was. In my mind he wanted a doormat. Someone to clean his house and do his laundry, someone mindless who couldn't think for themselves.

But he was right it's why I switched my title to switch. With some people I am just more dominant with. I feel the need to take control to be in control and then there are those select few with whom I'd follow where ever they chose to lead. With whom I do whatever it took to make them happy. It's hard to explain actually.

But his words that phrase you aren't a submissive really did make me take a step back and ponder and do the whole personal journey thing. It wasn't harmful to me it was only helpful...

If I'm making any kinda sense

< Message edited by impishlilhellcat -- 8/19/2008 1:30:45 PM >

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Anyone who says they have only one life to live must not know how to read a book - Unknown

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 1:30:27 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think everyone can bring out that submissive urge.  There is another thread today about someone finding they got that spark to just submit from what she assumed would be a casual encounter.  That is a PERFECT example of what I mean! 
Just because someone who does not know you from beans says you are not sub does not make it so.  EVEN if your idea is that you enjoy what is traditionally thought of as bottoming and in your head that means submitting.  It might be the act of bottoming is what you mean at the time.  But until you come across someone who inspires you to submit, no one really can judge whether or not you are submissive.   Especially some bozo who declares it based on a few lines of text.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

My assumption at that stage is she is a clueless newbie and doesn't know what a submissive actualy is... note the assumption isn't that she isn't and never will be a submissive. If she learns, is drawn and meets the right person then in time she MAY be.

There is also a difference in saying "I don't see that person as submissive"... and making the catagorical statement that "she isn't a submissive"... people can call themself whatever label they choose, that doesn't mean I will see them that way which shouldn't be an issue unless they are seeking validation from Me... which ain't going to happen.



This is really how I feel about it. Years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of serving a man - he can get his own fucking coffee, that's why he has legs! People change, they grow and they realize that the things that seemed so damn awful to them are actually quite nice. Now I know that I like fetching Val his things even if his legs work perfectly well.

There are also people do not define themselves as submissives but are owned slaves all the same.


(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 1:40:45 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Treasure I never looked at in that light before and I'm fairly certain that probably does account from some of it now that I have been enlightened to that viewpoint. But how self defeating is that? Doctors are highly desired and in demand but most of us know not to claim we are one....even if we do have a bottle of Tylenol, a pair of tweezers and a box of Band-Aids in the medicine cabinet.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 2:31:45 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Treasure I never looked at in that light before and I'm fairly certain that probably does account from some of it now that I have been enlightened to that viewpoint. But how self defeating is that? Doctors are highly desired and in demand but most of us know not to claim we are one....even if we do have a bottle of Tylenol, a pair of tweezers and a box of Band-Aids in the medicine cabinet.


What?  You mean my first-aid kit doesn't qualify me as a real doctor? 

Thing is, mist, it is self-defeating... or at least self-deluding.  If they don't find a suitable partner they can hang on to, they always have ways to placate themselves.   It's a lot harder to find comfort in acknowledging that what you have to offer isn't that desirable.

Besides, you know as well as I do that having nebulous, self-determined definitions for labels gives people the opportunity to decide for themselves what to be called.  Unlike being a licensed doctor, there are no specific criteria for calling oneself a submissive or slave... there's no governing authority to regulate the application of the sub or slave label. 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 6:02:58 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't know if you can tell if someone really is submissive or not. Mainly I prefer to think that this person just isn't going to be submissive to that person. There's no way to predict whether or not they'll ever meet someone they truly can submit to.

I'm submissive to one. In my whole life he's the only one I've ever met who I feel safe submitting to. I'm sure that for many years people would have laughed at the idea of me being submissive, simply because I didn't feel safe exposing that side of me. But I am, with the right man and in the right circumstances. Everyone else would have been wrong to say that I really am not a true submissive, they just weren't the right dominant for me.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 6:21:24 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		The first dominant to tell me that was right!  But, he said it in a non-judgmental way which led to a discussion that set me on a path to explore submission.  I may have come to the same conclusion on my own, but I am grateful that he was willing to take the time to point me in a direction that I have found to be even more fulfilling than simply getting my masochistic needs met. 

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 6:30:47 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think whether we or are not our identities is something people have to come to and determine on their own without me deciding for them based on the limited amount of external information I can gather about what's going on internally.

My identity was something that felt "right" internally in the beginning and came into being over time through self actualization.

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 7:35:38 PM   
HornyToadsMI


Posts: 287
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		To me, it would depend on the tone and intention of the comment. 

If He said it in anger...that is one thing, if He said it to help me grow as a sub, then i would have to "suck it up" and learn from it. 

_____________________________

i have the best job in the world - my Boss whips me!!!

Go with your gut - yes, I am being a Smart Ass!

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 7:41:24 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I think the idea that to be Dominant or submissive means you must be that to everyone or in every situation is silly personally. My experience is that people who "declare" you as not being what they seek (ie not submissive) tend to be insecure in their own identities and this makes them uncomfortable and unable to think that you are not moved by them to be so.  The most confident in who they are i have seen are easily able to say "we are not right for each other" without having to say either is at fault for this.

Personally my life is a constant journey and who i am in each part of it is directly related to what is needed and what i am comfortable with in that area. Oh what a lovely thing for someone who is forced by circumstance to be dominant in most parts of her life to be able to find a time, place, person to be able to let go and truly submit!

_____________________________

Never grow a wishbone where your backbone ought to be


(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 7:57:01 PM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Automatically when it's said there seems to be offense taken. But can't there be situations where no offense is intended?


Offense, to me, is often related to HOW something is said. "You're not a REAL submissive," is a whole lot more offensive than, "I think you're an awesome bottom." Judgement words like "just", "not real" and "fake" cause people to go on the defensive...which leaves them feeling offended.

Master Fire



I couldn't agree more.  Well said.

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 7:58:02 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		"submit" does not actually mean......."do everything I want you to or I will erupt in drama most annoying, and you will never dip your wick again-but pretend that you are my master, that makes me wet."

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My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 7:59:52 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

It's rarely about the label. It's about the conversation which takes place after the label is announced. Like Raven, to me it's about compatibility and being on the same page even if that page isn't in anyone else's book .. except for one other person.





I'm finding the truth in this more and more.


Ditto for me also.
It really only matters to me and my submissive and our relationship,
in the end, as far as I am concerned.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 8:36:16 PM   
MakeMeSmile4U


Posts: 710
Joined: 4/27/2008
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		I've been told "you are not a real submissive".  That was from a random stranger who was compelled to judge me based on my original profile.  He said I was self-centered and blah blah blah because most of the sentences began with "I"... as in "I am 39 years old, I am seeking...", etc.  Ok, maybe that was my mistake:  I *thought* MY profile was supposed to be about ME.  And yeah, I was offended.  

More recently I was told "you may not be a true submissive... you may be a switch".  That was by my Lord and no, I wasn't the least bit offended.  I just consider myself extremely lucky that he's willing to help me figure out where I fit in.  He'll never allow me to top him, I doubt I ever could or would ever have the desire anyway, but he's offered to help me find a sub of my own and guide me if that's the road I eventually decide is the one I should take. 

The fact is, I am a complete novice to this.  In my 'everyday vanilla' life I am extremely dominant... It's the "Mom-dom" thing:  I'm a wife and mother, an office manager (soon to be 911 dispatcher though *smile, yay me lol*)... it's just the way I have to be.
When I first started exploring bdsm I was told I was probably somewhere between a bottom and a sub.  I think it really is just all about the dynamic that develops between 2 people.  I had a few false starts before meeting M (my Lord), one with a very sweet gentleman that I couldn't submit to if my life depended on it.  If truth be told, I don't think he was a "real Dom" lol, but I'd never say that to him... that wouldn't be very submissive, would it???

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 8:42:35 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Treasure I never looked at in that light before and I'm fairly certain that probably does account from some of it now that I have been enlightened to that viewpoint. But how self defeating is that? Doctors are highly desired and in demand but most of us know not to claim we are one....even if we do have a bottle of Tylenol, a pair of tweezers and a box of Band-Aids in the medicine cabinet.


What?  You mean my first-aid kit doesn't qualify me as a real doctor? 

Thing is, mist, it is self-defeating... or at least self-deluding.  If they don't find a suitable partner they can hang on to, they always have ways to placate themselves.   It's a lot harder to find comfort in acknowledging that what you have to offer isn't that desirable.

Besides, you know as well as I do that having nebulous, self-determined definitions for labels gives people the opportunity to decide for themselves what to be called.  Unlike being a licensed doctor, there are no specific criteria for calling oneself a submissive or slave... there's no governing authority to regulate the application of the sub or slave label. 



I think this is a great point.  And how many vanilla women and men do just the same thing?  Pretending to be something they are not, because they believe it to be desired by the opposite sex?  Or whichever sex they are attempting to attract. 
 
I also think that Bita and Raven are on the right track.  Every label that we have is subject to the interpretation of those using and giving the labels.  We have all the sub vs. slave debates on this board to prove it. 
 
And sometimes people are just confused.  They know that they are turned on by kink but haven't done enough exploring, asking, or searching to know just what it is they want and where they fit.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sometimes they say it because you really aren't - 8/19/2008 8:46:10 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Good post Treasure...and I have to agree with you and Mist here...I was also thinking as I read through this thread that sometimes ,for example: a untried slave will self identify as a slave because of possibly the "romantic" flavor of such, their perception of slavery is couched in a process of being cared for in all aspects of life, to be "protected" from all the turmoil of life and its demands, to not having to take any responsibility....the romance of slavery.............so thus the identification of slave......I too have also noted that some untried ones may also state in their profile something along the lines of bi-curious, which also makes them more in demand,,,sad thing is they tend to fool themselves into thinking that they can change that mindset of the Dominant who wishes to have this in his relationship.....Of course personally I prefer to be what I percieve myself as, rather than attempt to be that which I am not...rather a shallow pool, than one based on someone I cannot be, at least at this point in my life..I tend to self identify myself as an alpha type submissive with a monogamal mindset....Tempting

_____________________________

I have greatly enjoyed the second blooming...suddenly you find at the age of 50, that a whole new life has opened before you.........Agatha Christie.

You must make tracks into the unknown~~Thoreau

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 40
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