So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (Full Version)

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Maxwell67 -> So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:43:35 AM)

I have written before that I used to be the passive-agressive type.  I was expert at setting myself up to appear to be the victim an nearly any exchange.  See, I was a victim of abuse as a child and I never really learned how to be anything else until one day when out of the blue something changed drastically for me.

One day, I was doing as I often did, feeling downtrodden and looking to blame someone else for it.  It was an easy prospect.  

When you identify as a victim, you learn that enjoying the status is actually relatively fleeting.  Eventually people expect you to get over it and move on (oh you can stretch this out be beng wounded so many times you don't bounce back so well anymore, but eventually it has to end).  However, if you are addicted to the attention it brings, that is not going to work for you.  So you manipulate your relationships early with that in mind.  I could set myself up to be the victim of half a dozen close friends, then just wait.  Eliciting promises of faithfulness and loyalty, love and understanding, then waiting for just the right moment to force them to an all or nothing decision in which they had to decide if they were going to "be the bad guy" and do what was best for them or live up to their promise to me and suffer.  I was a true master at "If you loved me you would ... (insert degrading and co-dependent thing here)."  So needless to say, I never ran short of dramas.  I could always set myself up as the one who did nothing wrong, lived up to my end and got screwed.  

Here is how it is done:  First off, for purposes of this example assume that currently there is nothing actually wrong.  Now start to get that feeling like "the other shoe is about to drop." Something bad is bound to happen.  You are happy, and that cannot be tolerated, so in any exchange look for the little signs that things are not really as rosey as they appear.  You will find them.  It won't be hard if you are looking for reasons to feel insecure to suddenly notice scads of them.  In fact it is stunningly easy.  Let a few build up.  Enough that you can delude yourself into thinking it is some kind of pattern.  Then get very needy.  Start clinging to the person and be all depressed all the time.  Inconsolable.. become a serious buzz kill to be around.  At first this person will try to help you.  That is what people who love you do after all.  But find some reason why every suggested solution won't work.. "That may fix things for everyone else but it does not apply to me because ..."  After a dozen or so attempts to help, your chosen victimizer-to-be finally throws up their hands.  "Ah Ha!!"  you say.  "I knew you never really loved me!"  Or insert whatever appropriate relationship betrayal applies...  This then gives you the chance to get all maudlin, and go feed off the love and kindness of the people around you because you have obviously been betrayed.

Well that is the general outline.  Change a few details here or there, but pretty much it works like that.

Well this time, after destroying yet another close relationship this way, as I was seeking out my pay off in pity from the rest of the crowd, something occurred to me:  I was not happy.  No not the normal kind of unhappy thought.. this was new.  Suddenly I realized that all the work I had done to be "the good guy" in the relationship.  Avoiding any hint of blame for myself, quietly catalogueing all those little hurts I could use against my so-called victimizer, skewing my perceptions to make everything seem like doomsday was just around the corner.  Sighing and moaning and asking questions that made it apparent I was hurt.  Forceing my chosen victimizer through all my little hoops to "prove" they were on the up and up with me... looking for any reason to take offense so I could pounce on yet one more piece of evidence in my case that this person was taking advantage of me.. whew.. it is hard work...  And it is no fun.

Even after all my unwitting plans came to fruition, and I could get the longed for victim status once again.. I was miserable.  What did I ever see in this sort of behavior?  Did it ever make me happy?  DId I get somethng out of it?  Even once?  The fact?  No.  Even as a child, when I was being victimized by someone I did not subconsciously set myself up be hurt by, it was not fun...  Oh sure I got a lot of attention.  I was even given special treatment because I was a victim, after all.  But I can't say I ever enjoyed it.  In truth I felt guilty accepting it.

This whole series of tactics I had been practicing most of my young life was never going to get me what I wanted.  Hell I did not even know what I wanted anymore.  What I did know was being a victim sucked.  I did not know how to be something else, but I was damned if I was going to continue wasting my energies repeating this pattern over and over.  I did not know what I would be if not a victim.  I did not know how to be anything else, but I was going to learn.  

I decided right then, one rule that broke me out of the victim mold for good:  Stop looking for reasons to be miserable.  

No more would I examine the words and actions of another to see if there was some kind of baby hurt in there I could blow up into something alarming.  No more would I befriend people whose trustworthiness was in question, and fool myself into thinking this person is simply misunderstood and they would never treat me that way because I am so obviously such a good person.  

I did not know what I would do instead, but I would learn to do something else.  

Well wouldn't you know it?  I have never again been victimized.  Now my life is a lot less work and a lot happier.  I never knew how hard it really was to be the victim til I stopped and realized how easy it was to refuse to do it any more.




GreedyTop -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:48:38 AM)

what an awesome post, Max.....




opposingtwilight -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:52:01 AM)

That was an awesome post.




UR2Badored -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:55:05 AM)

Mazwell is our Resident Dr. Phil.....who'da thunk it? :o)

Words of wisdom--thanks for sharing it !




Raechard -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:55:52 AM)

So what you are both saying then is the post could have been better?




Leatherist -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 7:57:54 AM)

I got over that crap by admitting that I can fuck up-and that admission is not an excuse to fuck up more.




velvetears -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 8:25:38 AM)

Wonderful post.... they say people change when they are ready - this is a perfect example, thanks for sharing!




StormsSlave -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 9:25:34 AM)

Max! I think I love you! Brilliant. Thanks for sharing.




pahunkboy -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 9:33:10 AM)

that scream you heard last night was me.

Jenn called me last night.  "I am going out to dinner with Marvin" "he called and he is now divorced"


CRINGE.

Once again I am watching a train in slow motion.

She will try to control Mavin. She has all these rules.   Then the minute he doesnt toll the line. I get the brunt of the storm.  She is not happy when she is upset- when she is upset- the entire village is to pout and sulk with her for many hours.  sometimes DAYS!

No matter what he says- how he words it what he doesnt say- he is a jerk.  He left her 2 times for other woman. He is horny so he called her. Yeah- the kids are raised so Jenn wont have to raise kids. but she will never let him forget the he left her.

So hence hse must get her exact way every day every hour- and when he mis-steps- when he glances at another female= heck if a female even wears a wron outfit- then the battle starts.

Yup- victomhood is hard work.
If cant life in a dream land then pout pout.




Maxwell67 -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 9:35:08 AM)

*FR*
Well, there seems to have been a lot of talk lately about drama and about patterns of behavior that lead to bad ends.  It was something I am familiar with, and I had this thought that if I posted how I managed to reason my way out of it.. (and I did, amazing as that sounds).. then perhaps others might recognize the tactics I am describing as being in their own arsenal and perhaps ask themselves if those tactics had ever produced a happy result.  When I recognized the pattern I was engaging in and saw that it never had and never would yeild anything but heartache, the decision to change came very easy.  Sticking to that decision also came easy, because for the first time, I was actually happy.  Even today I will sometimes catch myself starting to set myself up for such a fall (old habits die hard, and I had been in the victim game from my very earliest memory on), but the second that old, familiar "other shoe is about to drop" feeling hits I know I have screwed something up.  I go back, examine my tactics and adapt accordingly. Nowadays I accept responsibility for my own emotional well being.  If I get screwed over then it is my own damn fault and no one elses.  When I see a problem, I double check to make sure it is actually a problem and not just an excuse to get someone to apologize to me (sometimes I miss this one, still, if I have not had my coffee... it is like a reflex action.  I need to be aware to control it).  If there is actually a problem, I do not sulk about it I address it and fix it. 

Strangely enough all this new behavior just manifested of it's own accord within a few months of thowing out the impotent melodramatic stuff I had saddled myself with before.  I remember there was a thread about how some of us were brought to BDSM because of some damage we suffered.  I said I preferred the word "change' to damage, and this is why.  It was this decision to heal my own neurosis that allowed the happy and well adjusted sadistic dom inside me rise permanently to the surface instead of just making brief forays out into the world when there was a crisis I needed to deal with.  I was always mystified by my ability at a young age to handle the worst of emergencies, calmly and efficiently and even lead those I was involved to a solution, but only if the need was dire...  as it turns out, my natural dominant birthright had been surpressed by the scars of abuse til I was mature enough that it just woke up on its own.






pahunkboy -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 10:07:14 AM)

it is passvie -agressive




NuevaVida -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 10:25:18 AM)

Fantastic post, Maxwell.  I recognize a lot of my former self in it, too.  For much of my life, I actually liked being the victim, in a strange way.   It was a very skewed way of thinking.  You described what happens perfectly.  I hope "perpetual victims" read your post and can see their destructive habits as a result. 




MistressPav -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 10:26:37 AM)

Today's Victims are yesterday's Suspects.




candystripper -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 10:28:00 AM)

This is not my special cross to bear, but I have had to deal with passive-aggressive types at work and even in my own family, and I find them brutally difficult to contend with, because they REFUSE to ever put their cards on the table and say 'I'm pissed and this is why'.  I find myself trying to guess -- guessing wrong -- of course -- trying to adapt -- adapting wrong of course -- etc.  Not to slam anyone's culture, but it did seem to me that this conduct was extremely well-rewarded in females down south, inasmuch as they are socially prohibitted from ever being 'pissed off' to anyone's knowledge.
 
candystripper
 
P.S.  Yes Maxwell, it was an amazing post -- thank you.




JohnSteed1967 -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 10:42:04 AM)

I had an Irate customer the other day, this customer went on for 40 plus minuites how we were screwing her over and how we had lied to her. the Gist of it: "subsrber calls in stating that she had been promised a technician to her house by 8:30 am, the work order was for 8-10, not 8:30 or even8-12am sub demands to speak with my supervisor (who has no control over the scheduling) Supervisor is currently dealing with 4 other irate customers and is the only supervisor on the floor"

When I explain that we will have a tech to her home and that I will be more than happy to have my supervisor call her back as soon as he can. subscriber then states Well obviously I am not important to you because I am an old black woman"

Lady, I don't care if you are purple but you are playing the victim here because you want someone out in the next 5 minuites and more than likly by the time my supervisor can call you back the tech will be knocking on your door.

Stop playing the Victim and the Race card and get on with your life!!!




Lockit -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 11:01:28 AM)

I just wrote about this in my journal after having to deal with someone... or a couple of someone's that used a passive aggressive communication style.  It can be maddening!  Talk about a cycle and a spin that can take on so much speed that you are dizzy for weeks!  At first you shake your head... whoa... what was that?  Where did that come from?  How could they think that way?  You try to be understanding just as Maxwell says, but no matter how understanding you are, they will need more.  It is as if they are countering anything you do and always taking it back to one place.  You are doing them wrong in some way.  They look for the attack from you, expecting it and when you finally get fed up with the cycle and decide to walk away if it will not change, they will push you until you either walk away or blast them in anger, proving they were a victim.

What I am wondering about are the different ways passive aggressive can manifest and different healing stages.  I can read about the problem, but haven't yet found something I really like or that tells the full story.  Maxwell has written the best peice I have seen so far!  Thank you Maxwell!

What I am seeing is that not every passive aggressive speaker goes into the victim thinking as articulately as Maxwell discribes.  I don't think they think it out and are actually responding from an emotional level and out of a habit of responding so.  I don't know.  I am only trying to figure it all out.  I wish I had the answers and understood it.

I have seen this a lot in people who are angry with the opposite sex.  On the surface they may not show that anger, but get close to them and watch out!  Shit is going to hit the fan... it is just a matter of time.

Anybody know any good books on this topic?  Articles?  I need something here!  I just want to understand. lol  I need a book called something like 'Life after being a passive aggressive'!  Maxwell?  Think you might go in that direction? 




Ellsa -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 11:51:50 AM)

"The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker
and the old standby
"Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie





Maxwell67 -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 12:27:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
You try to be understanding just as Maxwell says, but no matter how understanding you are, they will need more.  It is as if they are countering anything you do and always taking it back to one place.


Oh you have not yet seen how bad it can really get.  Your attempt to be understanding is like heroin to an addict and I for one would have done whatever it took to keep it going.  If I was clever enough to actually bring you around to my side, I would simply change tactics and find something related to push buttons over.  I learned this technique from many late night/early morning 'discussions' with my alcoholic mother who in our talks would often completely reverse positions and argue the opposite point she started from simply to keep it going.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
What I am wondering about are the different ways passive aggressive can manifest and different healing stages.  I can read about the problem, but haven't yet found something I really like or that tells the full story.  Maxwell has written the best peice I have seen so far!  Thank you Maxwell!


Aww shucks... Just tryin' to help out where I can.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
What I am seeing is that not every passive aggressive speaker goes into the victim thinking as articulately as Maxwell discribes.  I don't think they think it out and are actually responding from an emotional level and out of a habit of responding so.

I tried several times early on to figure out what was happening, but I kept looking for some cause outside myself.  I had no idea just how clever I really was, hehe.. People kept telling me it was not my fault.  Well perhaps the first time, or the first few times when I was too young to defend myself,  it wasn't but after that I just bought into the line.. it was a deeply ingrained self-deception.

Often I would ask myself "What did I do?" but of course I had already given myself a list of answers to this that I could point back to in support of a "I didn't do anything wrong" answer.  What made me actually seriously think about that question (instead of falling back on the same answers I always did) this final time so I could root out the actual answer?  I do not know.  I just remember asking myself why this always happens to me and then actually examining my own culpability for the first time ever.  I just woke up.  I realized immediately that it was a pattern.. my pattern.  So I wondered why I was stuck in this rut (again looking for someone else to blame for it) but I realized immediately it was a pointless question.  I had been abused as a child, that is why I was in the rut.. knowing that solved nothing..and there was no way to go back and change what had happened.  I suddenly realized I was asking the wrong question.  I remembered other debates I had had (I was captain of my debate team in high school) and the line of questioning that led me to the most success in those:  "Who benefits?"  Find that out and you have your culprit.  And I began to wonder who was benefitting from my dramas.  It sure wasn't me.  But it was my pattern, so I must have gotten something from it once.  I tried to remember what that something was, and the answer was NOTHING.  And I laughed.  Here I had been working these tactics, refining them, perfecting them.. oh I was really good, too... and for what?  So that other people who I cared for would be as unhappy as me?  I had played myself for a fool.  I was SO relieved.  It did not have to haunt me the rest of my life.  Now that I knew the pattern, the tactics, and how completely useless they were, it was so easy to throw them away.  Oh I vacillated back and forth, as my old thinking continued to try to reassert itself for maybe a month or so, but I had been miserable for so long, and I was just so sick of it, and so angry at myself for falling for my own line of bullshit, I refused to give in to it again.  When I had a problem I developed an honorable, honest and straightforward new approach instead of letting habit guide me and soon I had replaced all those old tactics with newer ones that actually worked and made me happy and those around me as well... no more drama, no more destructive behavior.. I had never been so happy before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
Anybody know any good books on this topic?  Articles?  I need something here!  I just want to understand. lol  I need a book called something like 'Life after being a passive aggressive'!  Maxwell?  Think you might go in that direction? 

What, write a book?  I am not a psychologist.  I am happy enough now.  I do enjoy penning the occasional post/rant/what-you-will, but I would be hard pressed to come up with enough material on this subject to actually fill a book.  A pamphlet, maybe.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 12:33:54 PM)

Wow, this just made my day! This is the most awesome post I think I've read in a long time.

*hugs*

Congratulations, Max! Life ROCKS!

CFB




Lockit -> RE: So you're a victim? How's that working out for you? (8/10/2008 12:59:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maxwell67

What, write a book?  I am not a psychologist.  I am happy enough now.  I do enjoy penning the occasional post/rant/what-you-will, but I would be hard pressed to come up with enough material on this subject to actually fill a book.  A pamphlet, maybe.



Go for the pamphlet then!  Actually, a lot of self help books were not penned by a psychologist!  What seems to matter is speaking in a way that people can understand and relate to and their response to your experience or thoughts.  There are a lot of people like me out there and believe me, I am finding it hard to get information that really spells it out and how to cope.  I can't afford to buy each book I see without knowing that it will actually tell me what I want to know.  But say... a web site... with a moderately priced pamphlet... lol... now that I could do!  I say, go for it!  Please?  Okay... I will beg... You do have a way of getting into it I have not seen in any of the material I have found.  Come on... I'm sure a few extra bucks would come in handy... hehe...




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