RE: Inside a Saudi textbook

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Alumbrado -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 6:44:06 PM)
I think the influence of the muwahiddun is far in excess of the snake handling churches.

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 6:56:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers I agree as Islam has almost nothing but prayer...songs and lectures about prayer and are mired in a civilization (culture) that is 100 - 200 years old while supported by nothing more than sitting on top of oceans of oil. Once the west weans itself off of it...they're likely doomed. This OP is about HATE being taught in school books. It is not just directed at the Jews and Christians...it is directed as EVERYBODY who is NOT Wahhabi or ANYBODY they feel is an infidel. Bin Laden for example, wants the Saudis rulers taken down because their government deals with the west and allows any westerners (infidels) to even set foot on Saudi soil. This means in the Arab Wahhabi school books...HATE is being taught and I suggest that Arabs and muslim will eventually HATE other Arabs and muslims and especialy those that have anything to do with the OTHER infidels. That's why we will never see peace in the middle east in our lifetimes. Those that seek peace are and will be labeled infidels and be targeted. What would the world say and write if America started to teach such hate in our 4th grade text books ? I think we know the answer to that question. So how many of the worlds Muslims practice Wahhabism ? Its like saying all Christians worship with rattlesnakes, because a few do it. While you are working that out, which two religions were the first to claim there was only one God, the one they supported ? I will give you a clue, the answer is in your post. Well, I think that in America, we are obviously prejuidiced to look through the lens of Judeo-Christian thought, and whether or not we subscribe to it is of no relevance -- it's merely how our brains are wired to work. Going back to the OP topic -- I agree with the rattle snake bit, and this is what I try to get across. I am focusing on Middle Eastern studies, have traveled a bit in Muslim countries and know followers of Islam both in America and abroad... The most striking thing when speaking with Muslims in Turkey was the general consensus of: "We wanted to take time out of our busy work day and take our afternoon meal with you because we wanted the world to know we're not monsters." Yes, some extreme radicals practice hate -- they even hate their fellow Muslims, as someone pointed out with the Bin Ladin idea. American evangelists do it as well. It's like saying the "God Hates Fags" crazies represent not only the whole of American society, but all of Western thought, as many people lump together Israel, Turkey, Saudi, Oman, etc etc. P.S. -- And yes, women are extremely liberated in Islam, in case anyone was wondering. The hadiths and Qu'ran explicitly state that women and mothers are some of the most important people and to honor them dutifully. Just a few thoughts...

Alumbrado -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 7:01:08 PM)
quote: P.S. -- And yes, women are extremely liberated in Islam, in case anyone was wondering. Turkey isn't exactly the most representative example of the whole of Islam. What do you make of the Saudi women owning so many businesses? Are they liberated?

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 7:13:42 PM)
Alumbrado -- Unfortunately (and regrettably), I do not have the context of your talk with the prince. I'm sure it was incredibly interesting... Or at least it would be for me ;-) "Liberation", I think, can be contextual. In many countries they are attempting to enforce laws so women will not wear a hijab (the scarfy-type thing on the heads), because they feel it is degrading and oppressive to women. However, in the context of Islam, the women are not required but asked to wear it because MEN cannot control themselves, not because the women are Jezebels. Also, they desire to emulate the Prophet and his wives, so they generally like to wear it. So, the outsiders say the scarf is oppressive, the insiders say it is liberating and a symbol of their devotion. I understand that wasn't your question -- it was about the businesses, but the same is true. If they were forced into it by necessity -- the men of the family somehow could not run it or for whatever reason, there was no one else, and they did not DESIRE to be a business woman, then I think it could be oppressive and very sad indeed. However, if that is what they want to do (and indeed, many do go to universities to learn engineering, accounting, business management, etc), then I think they feel it is liberating to do what they want to do and to follow their dreams, to use the cliche. But on the flipside of that coin, it is seen as improper for a woman and a man whom are not married or otherwise related to be alone together, even in the context of a business deal, so although there are some women who would throw this custom out the window and be brazen, many of them would still need a male around to do certain transactions.

Alumbrado -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 7:23:09 PM)
Ahhh, Bandar's talk was very polished, highly entertaining, and well received. I was impressed by the statistics on how many Saudi women own businesses, until my sister told me that it was a ruse ( she's the angry, sarcastic, cynical one in the family...[:D]) ....under certain interpretations of islamic law, a man may not own more than one business... leading to the practice of having female relatives listed on the paperwork as 'owners' of companies they couldn't even drive to visit, much less be allowed to actually operate. I very much appreciate you pointing out the ability of the word 'liberated' to be significant in different ways, given different contexts, and for that, Turkey is an excellent example of Islam in transition.

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 7:37:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado ....under certain interpretations of islamic law, a man may not own more than one business... leading to the practice of having female relatives listed on the paperwork as 'owners' of companies they couldn't even drive to visit, much less be allowed to actually operate. I very much appreciate you pointing out the ability of the word 'liberated' to be significant in different ways, given different contexts, and for that, Turkey is an excellent example of Islam in transition. That first bit is interesting to me... I don't claim to know much about Islam, but I've never really heard that before.. Mainly in my studies we've dissected the religious and political implications of interpretations of Law, as many predominately Muslim states also desire to be a theocracy. I also like that, technically under Muslim law (Shia, I believe, but by no means quote me on that [:D]), Islam may be the "official" religion, but Muslims are not supposed to forcibly convert the peoples around them or whomever they conquered (going back to the Ottomans). This leads to a co-existence of the three monotheistic faiths and interfaith dialogue. Especially under the Ottomans, they had Greek Orthodox and Jews fighting, living and thriving under an Ottoman flag. While Europe was destroying itself with the Crusades, these people were building an empire on religious tolerance. Turkey was fascinating... It claims to be a secular state, yet it has a national religion and in many public/ municipal places, there are prayers and/ or other religious elements that, though one not may be Muslim, no one minds and accepts as something beautiful and worthwhile. And that's part of what I love about non-Western modes of thinking. Things can appear to be diametrically opposed, but they somehow make it work through little loop holes.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 10:55:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: uninterested5 World peace and Islam can't co-exist? No shit? Islamic culture is an oxymoron and until the West finally finds a way to build a ten-trillion-candlepower lantern of high-concentrated common sense nothing worthwhile in that culture dump will ever exist. I guess you've never heard about the Islamic Golden Age, or the Islamic preservation of Greek philosophy, or their responsibility for much of the advanced mathematics and science that lead to our modern knowledge of those topics (where a lot of Arabic-derived words still exist, such as algebra and chemistry).

Vendaval -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 11:14:43 PM)
Even the numbers we use today have an Arab origin. "The Hindu-Arabic numerals are the ten numerals (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9), which—along with the system by which a sequence (e.g. "406") was read as a number—were used by North African Arab mathmaticians and transmitted to Europe in the Middle Ages, from whence they spread through European colonialism. Today they are the most common symbolic representation of number in the world." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

ArtCatDom -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/23/2008 11:14:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday I also like that, technically under Muslim law (Shia, I believe, but by no means quote me on that [:D]), Islam may be the "official" religion, but Muslims are not supposed to forcibly convert the peoples around them or whomever they conquered (going back to the Ottomans). This leads to a co-existence of the three monotheistic faiths and interfaith dialogue. Especially under the Ottomans, they had Greek Orthodox and Jews fighting, living and thriving under an Ottoman flag. While Europe was destroying itself with the Crusades, these people were building an empire on religious tolerance. Under the Ottoman and other classical Islamic empires, the "People of the Book" (monotheists, including Jews and Christians) were permitted to pay the "jizyah". It was a tax indicated an acknolwegdement of the Islamic government's legitimacy. In exchange, the people who paid the tax (called dhimmis) were permitted to worship freely, granted a corpus of rights and were also permitted some community autonomy. In the eastern Islamic empires, such as the Mughali of India, this "indulgence" was extended to Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists. The Maliki (a sect of Sunni Muslims) in West Africa and bordering areas also extended this option to the obstensibly monotheistic native faiths, such as Vodun and the related tribal religions of the Yoruba and Fon. During periods of intolerance and "reformist" trends, some tolerant Islamic regimes forced the Sufi to pay the jizyah, to avoid being forced to harshly punish them as "innovators" (heretics).

Politesub53 -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 1:37:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado I think the influence of the muwahiddun is far in excess of the snake handling churches. I didnt claim otherwise, is not all Muslims, even Saudi`s, are screaming " Kill the infidels"

Owner59 -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 9:28:20 AM)
How many know that Jesus and Mary are saints, in the Muslim religion? One can not be faithful without believing that. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps today one can say that snake-handlers don`t have quite the same impact that the wackier parts of Islam does. But historically,it`s the Christians who have been much more deadlier and dangerous to be around.Starting w/ the crusades, up to WWII and beyond.

christine1 -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 9:38:29 AM)
that's all fine and good if they believe jesus and mary are saints. i have no problem with what others believe...it's when they want to kill me because i might believe a little differently from them when i start having a problem with them...i realize not all muslims believe in this extreme. on the same note, i'd have the same problem with anyone that held my same beliefs that wanted to kill anyone else becuase of their different ways of thinking.

farglebargle -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 4:27:39 PM)
That's what happens when you mix Church and State...

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 6:24:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what happens when you mix Church and State... To reiterate... The point to many Muslims is to have a theocracy so they will rule righteously and justly. In Muslim states, one is not supposed to force conversion on peoples of different faiths. There were many places where churches, synagogues and mosques were all present. It is true, however, that certain taxes would be levied on non-Muslims in lieu of their being in the military service, as non-Muslims cannot engage in battle (think of Israeli military today); but many Christan and Jewish forces have been "hired out" to aid in battles.

Owner59 -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/24/2008 8:22:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christine1 that's all fine and good if they believe jesus and mary are saints. i have no problem with what others believe...it's when they want to kill me because i might believe a little differently from them when i start having a problem with them...i realize not all muslims believe in this extreme. on the same note, i'd have the same problem with anyone that held my same beliefs that wanted to kill anyone else becuase of their different ways of thinking. Are you really afraid someone`s going to kill you b/c of your beliefs? lol I`m not. There are more than a billion Muslims world-wide,and only a tiny hand full who say crazy stuff. From a few nuts,you`re going to run scared and damn an entire religion? And specking of killing,your boy George has managed to kill over a hundred thousand innocent Iraqis, with his spread`n freedom and liberty and all. What did they do to deserve that fate,other than being brown people/Muslims? One of the ugly ironies is that we`ve help establish Sharia law in Iraq,where they actually do kill people for their religious beliefs,honor killings,etc. You don`t have to worry about that,do you?

farglebargle -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/25/2008 5:07:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what happens when you mix Church and State... To reiterate... The point to many Muslims is to have a theocracy so they will rule righteously and justly. How's that working out for them? The problem with concepts like 'righteously' and 'justly' is that they are wholly subjective, and in those instances the only solution is a Jury of Peers. Absolute Power corrupts, Absolutely.

christine1 -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/25/2008 5:22:26 AM)
i'm not running scared and i don't remember specifically damning any religion in my post, what i did say was that the few that do want to kill in the name of religion i'm going to have a problem with. i also said, if you'll go back and read it, that i'd have a problem with someone of my own beliefs that wanted to do the same thing. i don't believe in shoving any religion down anyone's throat let alone killing them for it. another thing i said was that i realize that not all muslims are that extreme. i'm sorry that makes you feel the need to get all huffy and try to put words in my mouth, but do try and have a great day.

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/26/2008 1:38:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what happens when you mix Church and State... To reiterate... The point to many Muslims is to have a theocracy so they will rule righteously and justly. How's that working out for them? The problem with concepts like 'righteously' and 'justly' is that they are wholly subjective, and in those instances the only solution is a Jury of Peers. Absolute Power corrupts, Absolutely. You also have to look at how things are being interpreted. In many off-shoots of various religions, they splice bits and pieces of different verses together to make it mean what they want it to mean. And look at who's in power and how they got there. If only a handful of people think one way, and the entire populace as a whole disagrees, eventually there will be a civil war or a coup. Like I said, I don't pretend to be an expert or even know a whole lot about Islam, but from what I do understand, the Muslim people as a whole are very tolerant and kind.

Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/26/2008 1:39:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christine1 i don't believe in shoving any religion down anyone's throat let alone killing them for it. I completely agree... That and ignorant, broad generalizations of various groups. That ticks me off to no end.

Sanity -> RE: Inside a Saudi textbook (7/26/2008 8:05:42 AM)
Comparing the widespread anti-western teachings in Islamic lands to a few southern preachers discussing what their bibles say about Gays is laughable, at best. First, I'm not convinced that very many Christians actually "hate" Gays. And what do Muslim radicals do with Gays... when they discover one. Can Gays parade around in Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or even Turkey? And do southern preachers dive airplanes into skyscrapers in Dubai... I don't think so. And sure, Islam had some truly glorious times in its culture and its civilization, that cannot be denied, but that was hundreds of years ago. What have they done for us lately - besides stone rape victims, and gays, and send their children into soft civilian targets with bombs attached to their bodies. Don't get me wrong. Individual Muslims can be and are very warm and charming people, every bit our equals, and in every way. But their society for the most part is really, really fucked up - and I don't see how you can deny that. quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday Well, I think that in America, we are obviously prejuidiced to look through the lens of Judeo-Christian thought, and whether or not we subscribe to it is of no relevance -- it's merely how our brains are wired to work. Going back to the OP topic -- I agree with the rattle snake bit, and this is what I try to get across. I am focusing on Middle Eastern studies, have traveled a bit in Muslim countries and know followers of Islam both in America and abroad... The most striking thing when speaking with Muslims in Turkey was the general consensus of: "We wanted to take time out of our busy work day and take our afternoon meal with you because we wanted the world to know we're not monsters." Yes, some extreme radicals practice hate -- they even hate their fellow Muslims, as someone pointed out with the Bin Ladin idea. American evangelists do it as well. It's like saying the "God Hates Fags" crazies represent not only the whole of American society, but all of Western thought, as many people lump together Israel, Turkey, Saudi, Oman, etc etc. P.S. -- And yes, women are extremely liberated in Islam, in case anyone was wondering. The hadiths and Qu'ran explicitly state that women and mothers are some of the most important people and to honor them dutifully. Just a few thoughts...

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