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Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:02:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Disclaimer:  This thread may be regarding switches in the Ds community, but it is specifically asking for ALL input and perspectives.  Thus I believe it should be placed and remain in the General Discussion area.

So why are switches allowed and welcomed into "sub only" and "dom only" groups? I'm assuming the definition of switch to be "one who is oriented towards personal intimate relationships based on an authority dynamic both having and not having authority."

First off I always have mixed feelings about "orientation only" groups. It's only been here in Austin that I've enjoyed them and, if only on the surface, found them not to be the gossipy back stabbing competitive whorefest that most are. I recognize that there is enjoyment in being on your own. The fact is at a mixed group, subs who are with their doms necessarily need to be attentive to what their doms say and need. I understand and am fine with this, but it can be tough to have a serious ongoing conversation when the sub is running into the kitchen every ten seconds or can't speak on certain things. Going to an event solo frees everyone from that expectation to a large extent and they can focus (although I've found there's still a lot of interruption through cell phones).

I am also often confused about classes that are labeled as "dom only" or "sub only" when it's discussing a relationship dynamic, or kink philosophy. It feels as if we are encouraging certain things/activities for only certain orientations. Again, since I can go to all of those classes, why shouldn't everyone?

Yes, I am a submissive, so being at a "sub only" event should be fine.

But I am ALSO a dominant. If the point of the group is to not allow dominants, then I shouldn't be allowed.

This of course means I get to go everywhere, which is nice. But I think it's also a living example of how separating things by orientation really doesn't make sense on most levels. I'm the same person no matter what.

At times I feel as if people are saying switches are insignificant and thus even if they are the "wrong orientation" it's not an issue if they are included. Or as if our dominance/submission isn't "real enough" so it makes no difference if we are there.

But I don't want to project. Just because a lot of people think and feel that way doesn't mean that's the reason behind it. The most common reaction I've had in Austin is "I just don't get it." While this is immensely better than fear, condemnation, ridicule, or disparagement- it's not really the warm embracement that a hot single submissive usually receives.

I wish I could grasp better the need for division and separation on so many levels. Of course we all deserve private spaces to celebrate and embrace who we are. But I think it's exceedingly important whenever a decision is made to "exclude" to understand exactly why we are making that choice and make sure it comes from a place of security, fulfillment, and positivity.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:04:48 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Are transexuals treated the same way by men's or women's only groups?

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:08:10 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		"treated differently" usually yes, but there are many mens/womens only groups which are fine with including transsexuals and/or anyone who feels they belong there.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:19:01 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		The only issues I can see with inclusiveness from any group is individuals attending who will disrupt the focus or energy of the group.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:26:48 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I was posting on another board where only Dom/mes were allowed on one board and subs/slaves on the other.  If I answered as a switch I was threatened, sworn at, and told to keep my opinions to myself.  I prefer the set up here with the Ask A ... set up and anyone can chime in.

I am both an active Domme and active slave.  I have no confusion about that - it is who I am.  I think that open communication, the real reason I came to this lifestyle, should be stressed and people not excluded automatically based on their orientation.  I would prefer too much inclusion to not enough.


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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 6:41:20 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not a dom, I am not a switch, I am a maso sub who is also a sadist.
I can understand the desire for exclusion on some levels.  It frankly bothers me that many subs pay attention ONLY when a dominant says it. It can be the exact thing said earlier by another sub, and yet that comment would be completely irrelevant.
I dislike it when in a mostly sub group, a dominant holds court. 
I can understand the desire for exclusion..

But
I am a maso sub, who is also a sadist and VERY much my own person in all situations.  I am me, in or out of bdsm.  I don't allow myself to be excluded based on orientation.  People who meet me tend not to notice a tag on my forehead that says I am this way or that. 
Be you Liz. 
You were always very vocal and your own person even back in those days people were yelling at you to get out of the chat room until you were 21.  You stuck to it and eventually most of those people came to see you as much like themselves. 
That is all we can do in life.  Be true to who you are and maintain the courage of your convictions.  People do notice when someone appears "real"
Andei

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 8:05:44 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		In a class or workshop, it seems ridiculous. Whether you're doing it or having it done to you, you still should understand what's going on.

But I can see a support group being exclusionary.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 8:17:26 PM   
SurrenderForMe


Posts: 229
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The supposed and hard to achieve reason for those groups is to give people a place to discuss things without worrying about any number of things.  The reason, I would include a switch in a top group would be because said switch said they wanted to participate in that group in that persona.  Acceptance of something so basic would be, to me, common courtesy.

I'd just enjoy what you can and leave what you can't to be picked over by the vultures.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 9:24:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Except it's not a persona, at least not for me.  The problem with the term "switch" is that it implies it's on or off.  That's not really it at all.  I am a dominant, I am a submissive, all the time.  Just like any dom is, just like any sub is.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 11:16:36 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Well so am I as I have tried to explain here many times ... but at such an event I would be trying to discuss things through the appropriate "persona/side/perspective" ... call it what you will. So if i was at a sub's group i would be thinking as violet and talking from that perspective, whereas at a Dominant's group, Jay would be forefront. It takes a bit of effort on my part and I admit it's easier for Jay to pop out at the sub's group than vice versa but I figure it's worth a bit of effort for the reward of going to both!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/18/2008 11:23:11 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Except it's not a persona, at least not for me.  The problem with the term "switch" is that it implies it's on or off.  That's not really it at all.  I am a dominant, I am a submissive, all the time.  Just like any dom is, just like any sub is.


You know, believe it or not, I have never thought of "switch" in this genre as a on/off switch.  I've always thought more along the lines of a "switch hitter" definition, hence the word "switch."  In my opinion, since you are both dominant and submissive, then you get to be included in both groups.  You may want support for both of your orientations, and you may want to learn tools for both, as well.

Other than that, since I haven't attended bdsm group functions to date, I don't really have an informed opinion on exclusion vs. inclusion, but I would imagine there would be a time & place for both, depending on the agenda.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 12:28:44 AM   
jim64


Posts: 86
Joined: 10/21/2007
Status: offline 		Being a newbie, I have spent some time trying to define myself in bdsm terms. I do this for myself, not out of concern for what others think. I started as thinking of myself as a sub. I have come to realize I'm more of a maso/bottom that is pretty dominant with sadistic desires. OK, sounds like a switch. As you stated, this is not something you turn off/on. It is who we are.

To your point, a switch should be welcome to sub or dom groups. That is not always the case. If you come in the "correct mode", it is ok. However, there is the trust issue that goes with the inclusion. I'm sure you have heard it all before. "You can't decide, you want the best of both worlds, you are not a true anything"

I have not been to sub meetings because I'm not sure if i belong. I have not even thought of going to  a dom meeting, because I have yet to go there yet.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 1:15:39 AM   
MizSexyVixen


Posts: 137
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		I've found many are dismissive of people who "switch." I have been told I'm not a true dom, not a true sub, that I'm merely confused and should "pick." I've had it suggested that as a dom I am merely experimenting until the right male dom comes along, and then I will be 100% submissive.

Really at this point I think it takes a switch to get a switch.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 6:28:58 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Here where I'm at, the group is fairly small.  We don't have many "exclusive" type events.  There are only two things that come to mind.  The first is the madam's brunch that is held every now and again.  It's open to all female Tops, Dommes, Mistresses, and switches (in Top mode).  No males are permitted if Dominant.  Sorry, but all bottoms and s-types that want to attend, are either servers, cooks, massuse..... I'm sure you get it.

The other is the submissive's group.  It's open to all bottoms, s-types, and switches (in bottom mode).  This is something I absolutely support, by staying away from it.

However, since the suject was brought up by LA, I do have a question.  Say there is a submissive support group in your area, and you are a switch who is currently in a dynamic with a submissive.  If your submissive attends this group, as that person's Domme, how do you approach this?  As a switch, do you still say you are a submissive, too, and attend the group, or since you are the Dominant in that sub's eyes, do you give the submissive the space to gain what they need from the group, without you being there?


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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 8:10:00 AM   
InsaenPleasures


Posts: 49
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		I think we can find this same kind of discussion when it comes up about Bisexuals or indeed any group where there is a middle ground.

I think people tend to have a hard time relating to someone who can be that socially and sensually flexible. We, as in humans, tend to think in terms of absolutes and that someone is X or Y, but cannot be XY. These are generalities of course, as some people do have the ability to not feel threatened or offput by the concept of someone being a Switch.

Humans tend to catagorize and instead of seeing Switches as a catagory they see them as being outside of the other catagories and thus incapable of fitting properly into the dynamic.

Personally I think Switches are fine. A relationship is defined on how she and I interact, not some arbitrary label. A Switch may be my sub and someone else's Mistress. What matters is the dynamic between us, not the ultimate play of dynamics in her life. As two consenting adults we can come to any arrangement that we wish, regardless of what definitions the lifestyle is trying to impose on us.



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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 8:16:46 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
However, since the suject was brought up by LA, I do have a question.  Say there is a submissive support group in your area, and you are a switch who is currently in a dynamic with a submissive.  If your submissive attends this group, as that person's Domme, how do you approach this?  As a switch, do you still say you are a submissive, too, and attend the group, or since you are the Dominant in that sub's eyes, do you give the submissive the space to gain what they need from the group, without you being there?

Let's just say just like kinky people like to "get away with" a lot, doing things without anyone taking notice, my partner and I "get away with" a lot at sub and dom only events.  We are BOTH switches so we BOTH get to go everywhere and trust me, we are not able to turn off who is dom or sub.  We do try to respect the energy of the group, but just as a dom and sub when they go to a vanilla only group of something do not suddenly try to become a vanilla personal, neither do we.

I really appreciate all these thoughts.  I think my focus is more "Doesn't the whole separation by orientation thing seem arbitrary and pointless because of the inclusion of switches?  If it's not arbitrary, how so?"

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 9:55:00 AM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

So why are switches allowed and welcomed into "sub only" and "dom only" groups? I'm assuming the definition of switch to be "one who is oriented towards personal intimate relationships based on an authority dynamic both having and not having authority."


Take the CM board traffic figures as a microclasm of the kink world.  The "Ask a Switch" board gets far less traffic than Master, Mistress, General, Sub/Slave, Health, Off-Topic, Humor, Polls, Poly, and Gorean boards.  If switches were not allowed to join the Dom or Sub Only group, where would they join?  The barren Switch Only Group? It would only make the "Switch Factor" more jarring.  It'd be like having a school for mixed-ethnicity kids.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
(snipped a little)
I am also often confused about classes that are labeled as "dom only" or "sub only" when it's discussing a relationship dynamic, or kink philosophy. It feels as if we are encouraging certain things/activities for only certain orientations. Again, since I can go to all of those classes, why shouldn't everyone?

But I am ALSO a dominant. If the point of the group is to not allow dominants, then I shouldn't be allowed.

This of course means I get to go everywhere, which is nice. But I think it's also a living example of how separating things by orientation really doesn't make sense on most levels. I'm the same person no matter what.

I wish I could grasp better the need for division and separation on so many levels. Of course we all deserve private spaces to celebrate and embrace who we are. But I think it's exceedingly important whenever a decision is made to "exclude" to understand exactly why we are making that choice and make sure it comes from a place of security, fulfillment, and positivity.


I don't like exclusion either.  It feels retrograde, i.e. pre-1954, pre Brown v. Board.  I suppose it could be easier for doms and subs to talk about their failures when the "other side" isn't there, but that's discussion and therapy.  For lecture, debate, demonstration, I feel it's crucial the two come together.  But then that's the thing.  For as many Dom Only groups as there are, are there enough D/s (together) groups?

We all have so much to learn and removing the eyes and minds of people who think differently than us is fickle and foolish. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
At times I feel as if people are saying switches are insignificant and thus even if they are the "wrong orientation" it's not an issue if they are included. Or as if our dominance/submission isn't "real enough" so it makes no difference if we are there.


"It's not anissue if they are included" can mean "they're not important, so who cares?" or "They're one of us, so who cares?"  Both means provide the same ends, switchs in dom (or sub) only groups.  I understand switching as "sometimes I'm dom, sometimes I'm sub" (in the coarsest way).  What's wrong with going to a dom only shin-dig when you're being a dom? (and vice versa, of course).  Yes, one would be remiss in attending a Sub-Only thing and talking about your dominating experiences, but I'm sure an intelligent switch has the good taste to know the difference between stealing the show and bringing light from the other side.

Consider a translator.  They are fluid in both languages.  (It comes at a cost, time spent studying Japanese is time spent NOT studying English) A lingual-switch (mmmm... ) can better understand both worlds than either one alone.  To better understand My Pet, I have a little sub running around inside my head.  I please it, then mimic that action down to My Pet.

So you should feel welcome, as a switch.  Welcome and special.  You're the Sacagawea of power exchange!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Yes, I am a submissive, so being at a "sub only" event should be fine.

Who leads a sub only event?

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 10:07:04 AM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I really appreciate all these thoughts.  I think my focus is more "Doesn't the whole separation by orientation thing seem arbitrary and pointless because of the inclusion of switches?  If it's not arbitrary, how so?"


It's not arbitrary, per se.  It's not a random and meaningless seperation.  It's not "People on the left side of the room" and "People on the right side of the room" get into discussion groups.  It's a seperation for people of similar internal feelings...  It's like a bunch of Church choir singers getting together, or a pack of Rabbis, or the Klan.  All are groups of likeminded people getting together to jerk eachother off, metaphorically speaking (Except for the Gay Handjob Enthusiasts of America, GHEA.) 

Handjobs, what a perfect segue to the next part of your question: Pointless?  I said vaguely in my last post that it felt counter intuitive.  How can we better understand the relationship we have by examining half?  As said, there are plenty of good reasons to split them up.  The pinnacle purpose of seperation is to not look stupid when learning.  It's why military training is done privately, and parades publically.  Who wants to see their dominant, the godly master of the universe fumbling to tie an Alpine Butterfly?  (Actually, My Pet informs me she loves to see my human side).

Do I think switches change the situation at all?  No.  I feel the "influence" on the group made by a switch is no different than a dominant (in a dom-only setting).  Disregarding individual differences, of course.  While people may look down on the concept of switching, I feel the person can be equally (if not moreso) helpful to the group. Please recall my translator analogy. 

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 10:08:25 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Much ado about nothing if you ask me.  There does seem to be some sort of in-built cultural bias against switches. My own theory based upon thin air is that it has to do with the dynamics of being a minority community (BDSM).  Typically, embattled minority groups circle their wagons and draw very very strict lines about who's in and who's out.  Heh, ask any ex-lesbian how her decision to go to "the other team" was received by her previous friends.  Me, I agree that switches are the "jack of all trades" players in this whole game and I see that as the best of all possible orientations.  Flexibilty is good.  Specialization is for insects.

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RE: Switches Non Entities - 7/19/2008 10:51:13 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I really appreciate all these thoughts.  I think my focus is more "Doesn't the whole separation by orientation thing seem arbitrary and pointless because of the inclusion of switches?  If it's not arbitrary, how so?"


Again coming from a lack of experience here, but isn't the point of exclusionary groups (of any kind, really) to share perspectives of those folks from the group that was invited?  In other words, a Dom/me only group is such because they want to share and exchange dominant perspectives, and a submissive only group is for the purpose of sharing and exchanging submissive perspectives.

If that is the case, wouldn't it be logical that a switch attending a dominant group would share his/her dominant perspective and stifle the submissive perspective, and when attending a submissive only group, would only share his/her submissive perspective?

If that's the case, it doesn't seem arbitrary or pointless at all, because the group is still focused on its agenda, and the switch can add to the group just as any other attendee could.

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