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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 4:48:01 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Folks in this country all it would take is a grass roots committed electorate....good luck with that though,there are too many of us too comfortable...the prevailing opinion all too often is "things are okay with me"


Yes, but it looks as though fewer and fewer people think that way, as the sweet numbness brought about by material comfort dissipates: perhaps there will be a revolution after all  .

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 4:55:29 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		That is for sure!  Doing some advocate work... I found that even people involved but not suffering too badly, wouldn't stand for change until they were so down and out that they came to me and said they were ready.  But it was too late... they were going to have to suffer becasue they were too comfortable, thinking it couldn't happen to them and when other's suffered blamed them for doing something wrong.  When it was them, they were ready to shout and do something, but by then were too weak to make much of a difference.

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 5:01:00 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Both of the preceding poster's IMO have hit it on the head...and this type of apathy in place of involvement is what leads to revolutions where one might not really have been necessary,especially in a country like this where the apparatus for social and political change is allready in place...all it truly lacks is an electorate that cares enough to force that change

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 5:26:01 PM   
cjan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Yeah it seems like a catch 22.  Those that are in the system are the ones that need to change it, and yet why would they when the system benefits them.


Well,that's one way to look at it, if you see "those in the system" to be only those who hold elected office. We, the voters are "in the system " too, don't forget. And we are, potentially, the most powerful part of the system.

Some have mentioned the political activism of the sixties. That activism DID change things that seemed unchangeable, from the Viet Nam war to civil rights and more. Imo. the changes that we in America desperately need now can only be wrought by such grass roots activism again.

How did it start back then ? Rosa Parks's courage inspired many people to take up the cause of civil rights. Martin Luther King Jr. was an unkown preacher when he comitted his life to standing against injustice. The press back then had a great deal to do with "the movement", covering stories, holding politicians feet to the fire and digging for and getting the truth out. Today, with media in the hands of a few special interests and the press having become timid, more interested in infotainment and looking the other way, we have a powerfull new media that we all have access to , not just as consumers of news, but as independent reporters.

I really don't know how grass roots efforts begin. From experiencing the sixties, it seems that many factors come into play, almost spontaneously, like a perfect storm. I hope we have a storm like that again, soon, to give new life to the country.


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"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 5:37:19 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Yeah it seems like a catch 22.  Those that are in the system are the ones that need to change it, and yet why would they when the system benefits them.


Well,that's one way to look at it, if you see "those in the system" to be only those who hold elected office. We, the voters are "in the system " too, don't forget. And we are, potentially, the most powerful part of the system.

Some have mentioned the political activism of the sixties. That activism DID change things that seemed unchangeable, from the Viet Nam war to civil rights and more. Imo. the changes that we in America desperately need now can only be wrought by such grass roots activism again.

How did it start back then ? Rosa Parks's courage inspired many people to take up the cause of civil rights. Martin Luther King Jr. was an unkown preacher when he comitted his life to standing against injustice. The press back then had a great deal to do with "the movement", covering stories, holding politicians feet to the fire and digging for and getting the truth out. Today, with media in the hands of a few special interests and the press having become timid, more interested in infotainment and looking the other way, we have a powerfull new media that we all have access to , not just as consumers of news, but as independent reporters.

I really don't know how grass roots efforts begin. From experiencing the sixties, it seems that many factors come into play, almost spontaneously, like a perfect storm. I hope we have a storm like that again, soon, to give new life to the country.



Oh don't get me wrong I believe we the people have alot of responsibilties.  I am just a bit jaded about the actual willingness of voters to speak with votes (stats suggest that most of the new young people in the process, will not vote this Nov.), I am also very cynical about the willingness of those that are currently in office to get rid of the things that help them stay in power.. nepotism, bribes, political blackmail, etc...



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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 5:43:12 PM   
Lockit


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		What brought about those activist and changes was people suffering or fed up with some sort of suffering.  Until the suffering hits the masses... things will remain the same.  One cannot vote on something that isn't in legislation or on someone's agenda.  The crisis has to motivate people and then when they stand together in agreement of some sort and a few in the streets kind of protest or public outcries for change... we might get it and then again... we might get slaughtered in the streets.

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 5:57:25 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

What brought about those activist and changes was people suffering or fed up with some sort of suffering.  Until the suffering hits the masses... things will remain the same.  One cannot vote on something that isn't in legislation or on someone's agenda.  The crisis has to motivate people and then when they stand together in agreement of some sort and a few in the streets kind of protest or public outcries for change... we might get it and then again... we might get slaughtered in the streets.
As to the slaughtered in the streets part my answer would be ...not if there's enough people standing there with You...but again I would like to point out there is in this country a built in method to effect change,albeit poorly used by those with the power to use it...the ballot box...it is a sad commentary on our fellow citizens when one looks at the percentage of eligible voters who actually bother to take advantage of their franchise...it is an abysmal number...Thadius I don't know if polls will hold up ,from my exposure to the young(thru my son chiefly)this generation seems more bent on effecting change from within the system ,than mine did while yelling in the streets...one can hope anyway

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:04:53 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I hope you are right, while I may not like the changes they bring about, I would be very happy to see them taking part in the "system".  The same claims are made every major election cycle, and each and every time the turnout (in terms of percentages of register young folks) seems to get worse.

Was it Lincoln that said "The philosophy taught in the classroom today, is the philosophy of the leaders of tomorrow"?  Apathy, settling for mediocrity, not offending others beliefs, and not rocking the boat seems to be the hallmarks in todays classrooms...

Just my opinion,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:05:54 PM   
Lockit


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:08:53 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.


Like minded folks, can get refferendum (too lazy to check spelling) put on the ballots, and thus change things even without the elected folks making such legislation.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:13:04 PM   
Lockit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.


Like minded folks, can get refferendum (too lazy to check spelling) put on the ballots, and thus change things even without the elected folks making such legislation.


Very true.. but have you ever tried to do that? lol omg!  It takes a lot of people and a lot of work and if you don't have the numbers and a lil money to get the drive going... good luck with that! lol

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:17:50 PM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.


Like minded folks, can get refferendum (too lazy to check spelling) put on the ballots, and thus change things even without the elected folks making such legislation.


Very true.. but have you ever tried to do that? lol omg!  It takes a lot of people and a lot of work and if you don't have the numbers and a lil money to get the drive going... good luck with that! lol
Which brings us full cycle back to enough people have to be in a bad enough way that they are motivated to start a grass-roots movement...the idea that we as a people are powerless ,keeps those in power and those misusing that power very comfortable indeed...the real power in this country still rests with the people,unfortunately we don't seem to realise it....(lockit you have mail)

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/11/2008 6:34:44 PM >

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:18:32 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.


Like minded folks, can get refferendum (too lazy to check spelling) put on the ballots, and thus change things even without the elected folks making such legislation.


Very true.. but have you ever tried to do that? lol omg!  It takes a lot of people and a lot of work and if you don't have the numbers and a lil money to get the drive going... good luck with that! lol


Nobody said it was easy, but I think that things that need to change are worth the work.  We can sit back and complain about the weeds in the yard while drinking our coffee, or we can get out and do something about them.  If the cause is truly worth the effort, is any price too high?  Is this not where apathy meets the pavement?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:19:20 PM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Oh don't get me wrong I believe we the people have alot of responsibilties.  I am just a bit jaded about the actual willingness of voters to speak with votes (stats suggest that most of the new young people in the process, will not vote this Nov.), I am also very cynical about the willingness of those that are currently in office to get rid of the things that help them stay in power.. nepotism, bribes, political blackmail, etc...


Jersey is as corrupt as it gets.  Every election cycle on the main talk station which serves the entire state, people call and say they're mad and going to vote everyone out of office.  There's even a term for it 'G.R.I.P.' - Get Rid of Incumbent Politicians.  The theory is even though some good ones may be tossed out with the bad, it's overall a generally good idea to vote out everyone so that a fresh batch come in with less nepotism, etc. 

But it never happens.  The same buffoons are voted in.  It's could be voter apathy or anything else ... whoever spends the most money and is "in" with the political machine which runs the state is in office. 

It makes me very jaded indeed.

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:21:57 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I was born and raised in Chicago, you are preaching to the choir.

I am now a resident of Michigan, and even though I personally will never be voting in Illinois again... I would put money on the fact that a few votes are cast in my name this Nov.



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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:22:22 PM   
NeedingMore220


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Was it Lincoln that said "The philosophy taught in the classroom today, is the philosophy of the leaders of tomorrow"?  Apathy, settling for mediocrity, not offending others beliefs, and not rocking the boat seems to be the hallmarks in todays classrooms...


Kids are also told these days that everything they do is okay.  Everyone gets a particiption trophy, regardless of whether they picked their noses in the outfield or made the winning catch.  That kind of self-centered nonsense causes a lot of the apathy.  As long as little Johnny gets what he wants, who cares what the next person needs?  This is just something I've observed raising my kids.  Competition is a good thing.  It is motivating and energizing.  And it gives the kids something to believe in other than his/her own personal greatness. 

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RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:26:50 PM   
Lockit


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Was it Lincoln that said "The philosophy taught in the classroom today, is the philosophy of the leaders of tomorrow"?  Apathy, settling for mediocrity, not offending others beliefs, and not rocking the boat seems to be the hallmarks in todays classrooms...


Kids are also told these days that everything they do is okay.  Everyone gets a particiption trophy, regardless of whether they picked their noses in the outfield or made the winning catch.  That kind of self-centered nonsense causes a lot of the apathy.  As long as little Johnny gets what he wants, who cares what the next person needs?  This is just something I've observed raising my kids.  Competition is a good thing.  It is motivating and energizing.  And it gives the kids something to believe in other than his/her own personal greatness. 



Rocking the boat?  That boat already sank for many reasons, but a lot of it was stuff like NeedingMore says here.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:28:21 PM   
NeedingMore220


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Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I was born and raised in Chicago, you are preaching to the choir.

I am now a resident of Michigan, and even though I personally will never be voting in Illinois again... I would put money on the fact that a few votes are cast in my name this Nov.


lol!  Sad, but true.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:41:44 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Yes Mike... but if what is important isn't on the ballot and we don't have anyone worth voting on... what change can we effect?  I mean I am simplifying the situation for sure, but I have talked to enough congress persons and senators... and watch some news and it is rare for them to listen to the people and actually give us something to vote on, etc.  The people and our needs seem to simply be non valid and unimportant.


Like minded folks, can get refferendum (too lazy to check spelling) put on the ballots, and thus change things even without the elected folks making such legislation.


Very true.. but have you ever tried to do that? lol omg!  It takes a lot of people and a lot of work and if you don't have the numbers and a lil money to get the drive going... good luck with that! lol


Nobody said it was easy, but I think that things that need to change are worth the work.  We can sit back and complain about the weeds in the yard while drinking our coffee, or we can get out and do something about them.  If the cause is truly worth the effort, is any price too high?  Is this not where apathy meets the pavement?


That's what I said till I got out there at great expense and they all kicked my ass! lol  Okay, some change was made... but not enough and I got tired of the battles fighting for people who wouldn't fight for themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Rangel's 4 rent stabilized apartments - 7/11/2008 6:51:22 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Aye, I think that is where the key has been touched on a few times in this thread.  General apathy.  If it ain't gonna do anything for me, why should I move?  Then add to that the constant battering that good folks take, while trying to get things done, so people sit back and say "Hey I don't want to be beat on, if they beat on that person, I can only imagine what they are going to do to me".

So the circle continues, spiralling downward or upward depending on your point of view.  No matter how many times we get knocked down, it is the fact that you keep getting back up and moving forward that leads to real change.

I know it's pretty generic and cliche, but still very true.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 40
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