Internal work

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mistoferin -> Internal work (7/3/2008 6:29:44 AM)
quote: StrangerThan Places like this, like this site and these forums serve both a good and bad purpose. On one side is the sharing of information, experience and advice that is helpful. On the other is this vague but shining monument that attempts to define what a Dom is and what a submissive is, and what the experience should be without really emphasizing that discovering yourself and what is right for you is a journey. You can find the most experienced Dominant or Master, and yet if you don't know what you need, don't understand yourself enough yet to know what is right for you and what isn't, you may learn a lot, and still be unsatisfied. Too many expect someone else to do that for them. It's lazy. I found this on another thread this morning and I thought that it would be a good jumping off place for further discussion. The OP of this quote talks of a journey of self discovery and I agree with him that far too often we don't emphasize the importance of that journey. I believe that many, if not the majority of relationships fail because that journey is something that many don't ever take the time to embark on, at least not in a manner that involves real depth or meaning. There are also many that don't attempt this journey until they are involved with someone...expecting that someone to be their guide through the twists and turns that such introspection can sometimes take. Ideally I believe that this is a journey that one should take alone BEFORE they seek out a partner rather than be potentially swayed by the influence of someone who you are trying to fit in with. The OP said that expecting another to do it for you is laziness....and I agree to an extent. Such a journey is a very hard thing to do and requires real effort, stamina and the ability to be brutally honest about yourself. A lot of folks just don't want to work that hard. Never looking = never having to see things that would require real effort to change. Denial is a much easier level to operate on and erases the responsibility they may otherwise have to step up and assume. So they float along through life like flotsam and jetsom, going where the current takes them because fighting the current to get to where they may really want to go would just be too hard....and ignorance is bliss. Sometimes I believe though that there are other factors that stop a person from embarking on this journey alone. Loneliness or insecurity tends to make people rush in and latch on to the first available "nice" (and sometimes not so nice) person who is willing to pair up. Fear can also impede a lot of folks. Sometimes it's simply a matter of a lack of skill...they just don't know how or where to start. There is also another factor that will likely be far less popular to mention but I really believe that it is what prevents many from this process. They simply are not capable of that kind of depth. They don't possess the vocabulary....or enough understanding of that vocabulary to really analyze "who am I?". They may think that they do. You may hear someone say something like "I am a person of integrity"....but they have no real understanding of what "integrity"is or how to apply it to their life. Or they will say things like "I'm happy"....but can't define that any further. They may have a tendency to always choose a certain kind of partner that always turns out to be wrong for them....but they can't figure out their motivations for doing such or how to change that. Sometimes it's simply a matter of an inability to visual the big picture. "Who am I, who do I want to be, what do I desire and what will I have to change about myself to make my experience in this life the most fulfilling that it can be?" Relationships with others are far more rewarding when we know ourselves. But if we never take the time to find out who we are...we end up never realizing that we really are a square peg and we go on continuing to try to smash ourselves into round holes....and wondering why we just can't get it to work. If we take that time to get to know who we ARE and then remain true to ourselves based on that knowledge....a whole lot of the bumps in the road simply disappear. It really is worth the effort and can make all the difference between a lifetime of happiness....or a miserable existence.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 6:42:11 AM)
I don't really have time for a thorough response, but it seems like you're making a long interpretation of "The unexamined life is not worth living." Frankly, I don't want to work hard at my life and relationships. I recognize that we're idiots in a lot of ways, make it really hard on ourselves and thus do NEED to work on stuff on ourselves and eachother, but really, I'm not going to seek dragons to slay. I know I'm in a unique situation compared to a lot of kinky people in that becoming aware of myself and kink was a dual process rather than one following another and having that midlife kink awareness. I know I'm a lot more self aware than most and had to do a lot of that basic work way before most people ever begin to ask those questions. But really, being who you are is the hardest thing out there, and it's also the only thing worthwhile. But I have no problems just taking it as it comes- sometimes there's a time to reflect and ponder and internalize, and sometimes there's a time to experience and interact.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 6:48:56 AM)
I provide pastoral care in the community, and there are a few things that I've learned over the years. Typically, when a relationship "goes south" and it is pretty apparent that the relationship isn't going to survive, the decision gets made to end that relationship. I am very disturbed when I see people go immediately from the relationship that was just dismantled to a brand new relationship. The same goes for those who start a new relationship while they're still in an existing relationship. There needs to be a bit of re-balancing time between relationships -- time to figure out who you are. Even if a person -thinks- xhe's found the "perfect someone", and xhe happened to encounter them while xhe was already in a relationship, when that first relationship ends, xhe still needs to spend at least 6 months out of a relationship, and -then- evaluate the new relationship on its own ground. I typically tell the people in separating relationships that it would be best if they refrained from getting involved with someone else for at least a year, and used that time to come to understand themselves. About 20% last 6 months (which can be long enough if you really use that time to get to know yourself as an individual, outside of a relationship). Less than 1% make it the full year. It seems that most people can't stand themselves, and don't really want to spend any time with themselves. The whole idea of being alone with themselves terrifies the living daylights out of them -- and yet they wonder why they have trouble being with someone else. Healthy relationships are founded on being OK with yourself -first-. In the same way, people are afraid of silence. I have no idea how many people's homes I've visited, and we sit down for a meeting and the TV is on in the background. I ask them to turn it off, and they respond with "Oh, no... don't turn it off... we're not paying attention to it... it's just on for the noise. The house gets too quiet." I wonder how they're going to manage to listen to themselves long enough to sort through the tangle of refuse that we all collect over the years to be able to get to the things that they need to work on, when they can't even sit in a quiet house for half an hour. We've become innoculated to outside stimulation to keep us from having to find out what is needling us inside. Being involved in BDSM can be a huge distraction -- for many practitioners, it has a high level of intensity, a high learning curve, and is very demanding at the outset, with a great deal of intense interpersonal contact. However, once the newness and intensity get low enough (which they will after a time, since most people can't maintain that high level of intensity for weeks, months, or years on end), all of the old white-noise returns. If we don't have a good handle on ourselves, we may find ourselves slipping into the same old mind-traps that have kept us from progressing, with no idea how we got there yet again... and no idea how to get out. Firestorm

RCdc -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 6:52:45 AM)
I don't believe that finding out about yourself is a long drawn out process that has to occur before you get into a relationship with someone. I don't believe it's something that just suddenly happens and you get to a point where you can go 'I am X,Y but not Z, I want A, C and might like a bit of R, V on occasion. People make life more complicated because they think that they must be defined instead of just realising that evolution takes place all the time. I don't see the poiunt of making life hard work. You have to work at things to make them go, but if it's hard, then there is a reason and that reason might be that it's not really worth it, faulty or just put together wrongly. the.dark.

missturbation -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:01:50 AM)
quote: The OP of this quote talks of a journey of self discovery and I agree with him that far too often we don't emphasize the importance of that journey. Our whole lives are a journey of self discovery surely? In my opinion we don't tend to emphasise this because it is just a natural progression and one some people don't really tend to think about a lot. quote: I believe that many, if not the majority of relationships fail because that journey is something that many don't ever take the time to embark on, at least not in a manner that involves real depth or meaning. I think that possibly the second part of what you say here is the important bit here. Everyone grows on their journey so i wouldn't necessarily agree with the first part anyway. But not everyone takes the time to study what is happening to them. Mind you i suspect some people probably don't need to. quote: Ideally I believe that this is a journey that one should take alone BEFORE they seek out a partner rather than be potentially swayed by the influence of someone who you are trying to fit in with. I can't entirely agree with this. Whilst a lot of self discovery can be done alone, for me some of it can not. Unless we try things which involve others how can we know if they are right for us? Its ok sitting alone and thinking this, this and this is what i want from life but until we put them into practice (as anything) we don't really know. quote: The OP said that expecting another to do it for you is laziness....and I agree to an extent. Such a journey is a very hard thing to do and requires real effort, stamina and the ability to be brutally honest about yourself. A lot of folks just don't want to work that hard. For me the journey isn't the hard part. Being honest about myself and self aware is the hard part. I don't agree in entirety that using someone else on this journey is lazy. As i said before i think we need others in the equation to discover oneself properly. quote: Relationships with others are far more rewarding when we know ourselves. But if we never take the time to find out who we are...we end up never realizing that we really are a square peg and we go on continuing to try to smash ourselves into round holes....and wondering why we just can't get it to work. Of course but thinking you know yourself and actually knowing yourelf are two different things. We can only learn fully from living life fully, making mistakes and getting it right. You cant do this alone. You have to dip your toe in the pool to see if the water is warm or cold.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:21:48 AM)
I agree about the importance of self awareness. I also understand that people are complex beings, and the path that is best to each individual will be unique to them and best taken when that person is ready to take it. While simply living life itself is one branch of that path, some of the roads toward a deeper understanding of self can be difficult to take (ever read The Road Less Traveled?). I have also seen people who wanted to leave the process of self awareness and self improvement up to their dominants - "I need my Master to get me to quite smoking / lose weight / improve on _____..." I have seen people that, when pushed by their Master/Dominant to jump out of their comfort zone, push back in resistance, or even leave. Some people don't want to do the work. Some people aren't ready to do the work. And others haven't found the right kind of work to do. I don't think a person needs to fully know him/herself before entering a relationship. Sure, it makes it more convenient and can save a lot of stress and hassle, but for some people, the right relationship is exactly the right path for them, and they're willing to work their asses off to get there.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:28:12 AM)
chuckles Another tidbit of advice that should have gone in my earlier post -- avoid taking life and relationship advice from someone who spends a great deal of time hearing about the cruddy lives others are struggling through -- you know... counselors, ministers, divorce lawyers... We have a very biased view of relationships, and tend to believe that it is a miracle that -any- of them are successful! [;)] Firestorm

candystripper -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:30:03 AM)
I disagree that the majority of attempts at a D/s relationship fail for the reasons you gave, but I do agree that unless you are relatively self-aware, you stand virtually no chance of finding a partner who can meet your needs. I don't think self-awareness requires motivation, intelligence or vocabulary. I think it's a value: "I see self-awareness as enhancing my life in general and so I'm going to use whatever tool I choose to increase my level of self-awareness'. It's also a function of maturation; people are so fluid at certain points in their lives, so open to any idea, so excitable, that self-awareness is a chimera. Others are more settled, have dealt successfully with some life challenges and are able to discover some essential truths about themselves. Take 'integrity' as an example. My moral compass has never wavered all my life, but the finer points of right and wrong certainly have. New moral questions have arisen and had to be addressed. New information has been presented and required processing and integration. This process of discovering 'what is right' never really ends through out life. candystripper

KatyLied -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:31:06 AM)
I also agree that self-awareness is important. It's difficult to identify what you want in life and in a partner if you don't understand yourself. I don't think you have to be completely self-actualized in order to embark on a relationship. I do think that you need to be open to possibilties and change, throughout your life and your relationship. I often think: If I had a dominant's guidance or order I would probably lose 20 pounds. The flaw in this thinking is that I don't do it for myself, yet I'd be able to do it for another. This is something I am working on - making improvements for me, not for some possible, unknown person I may meet in the future.

TheGaggingWh0re -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 8:10:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I agree about the importance of self awareness. I also understand that people are complex beings, and the path that is best to each individual will be unique to them and best taken when that person is ready to take it. While simply living life itself is one branch of that path, some of the roads toward a deeper understanding of self can be difficult to take (ever read The Road Less Traveled?). I have also seen people who wanted to leave the process of self awareness and self improvement up to their dominants - "I need my Master to get me to quite smoking / lose weight / improve on _____..." I have seen people that, when pushed by their Master/Dominant to jump out of their comfort zone, push back in resistance, or even leave. Some people don't want to do the work. Some people aren't ready to do the work. And others haven't found the right kind of work to do. I don't think a person needs to fully know him/herself before entering a relationship. Sure, it makes it more convenient and can save a lot of stress and hassle, but for some people, the right relationship is exactly the right path for them, and they're willing to work their asses off to get there. quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I don't really have time for a thorough response, but it seems like you're making a long interpretation of "The unexamined life is not worth living." Frankly, I don't want to work hard at my life and relationships. I recognize that we're idiots in a lot of ways, make it really hard on ourselves and thus do NEED to work on stuff on ourselves and eachother, but really, I'm not going to seek dragons to slay. I know I'm in a unique situation compared to a lot of kinky people in that becoming aware of myself and kink was a dual process rather than one following another and having that midlife kink awareness. I know I'm a lot more self aware than most and had to do a lot of that basic work way before most people ever begin to ask those questions. But really, being who you are is the hardest thing out there, and it's also the only thing worthwhile. But I have no problems just taking it as it comes- sometimes there's a time to reflect and ponder and internalize, and sometimes there's a time to experience and interact. I'm quoting these two for emphasis. Since they kidnapped nearly every syllable I would have uttered, I'll just embark a little self-loving knowledge I've come to terms with: Sometimes it's okay not to be on a quest to find yourself. When I used to be hellbent on finding out who I was, it was like an obsession that I could never quench. The self analysis led me through a depthless labyrinth of headaches and tearful, chocolate-gorging nights. Using the OP's example (but with slightly different wording), I called myself 'a good person'. Wtf is a good person? It was only then that I realized it was whatever the hell I wanted it to be because no two people's definition of a good person, or words in that definition, are the same (I can elaborate on this if need be). It was funny because the only way I could define myself was in my own vocabulary, and no one else has the same vocabulary as I do. Some were similar, others bass ackwards, so I stopped. I realized all I needed to know was floating right there on the surface: I am whoever I want to be and I can never be to other people who I am to myself. After I read in a magazine article, "It is okay if you're not trying to find yourself", I determined that it was truly and honestly okay. Any necessary growth will come whether I think deeply on it or not. As LA says, there is a time and a place for everything.

Missokyst -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 8:21:14 AM)
I think that is the biggest issue. Most people who do this, do this after years of looking around and finding quiet dissatisfaction. They have no clue on how to find happiness but think it has to be out there somewhere.. and then this drops in their life. And it may be that it is not the kink which they were missing, but the direction of someone saying to them, ok, you are happy now. I am not sure people know how to be happy. But when yoiu grow up bent and aware you are different, it is more natural for you to seek out like minds. Sometimes I look at this and wonder if it is like speech. When you are born with the ability to hear, speaking is learned through repetition and reinforced by positive reactions. But if you had been born deaf and later start to hear, learning to speak is forced, your audience of positive reactors is smaller. There may even be some embarrassment in learning to sound like those around you. It has to be harder to come into this later in life. Having grown up with this in my psyche I did want to slay that dragon and learn why I need what I need. But though I started looking into that from a young age it has been a lifetime process. Not everyone needs to do that. But for those who have not found success in "normal" life, it might be a good idea to examine themselves a bit more. Kyst quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross becoming aware of myself and kink was a dual process rather than one following another and having that midlife kink awareness. I know I'm a lot more self aware than most and had to do a lot of that basic work way before most people ever begin to ask those questions.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 8:54:25 AM)
~ Fast Reply ~ I don't see how an intimate self awareness that is able to separate idealistic fantasy from pragmatic reality isn't a prerequisite to life let alone any 'lifestyle'. Of course you have to allow for variables. The 'gang-bang' fantasy may be excellent masturbation fodder that never becomes reality; however aspects of that fantasy can be made reality without too much risk with a compatible, trusting partner. Personal goals, the ability to know what is important, or better yet essential to being content and ideally, happy in your day to day routine that you can expect regardless of the 'intensity'; or if you desired dynamic is 1/24 versus 24/7. The process is critical because whoever you meet, to be partners with common goals there will be compromise and consideration of their realities involved. You won't know what is safe to compromise and what isn't unless you know yourself. The time to do is is before you meet; without the distraction of the 'frenzy' that occurs from both sides of the flogger. However, self awareness doesn't guarantee success. You better be damn sure that the person you met has gone through a similar process and has come through it with relatively the same confidence in their representation. That is a much harder task and much harder to be sure. Confidence, that the person represented before you will be the same person one week, one month, or one decade from meeting is much harder to determine. Trusting that the desires aren't whims or fantasy fulfillments takes time and shared intimacy. It doesn't happen over a weekend. It doesn't happen on extended 'play-dates' or weekend vacations. Those are role-playing and serve their purpose, but aren't to be relied upon as an example of what a shared life would be like. It isn't necessarily lying or misrepresenting. Failure comes from really not knowing. Not knowing yourself isn't going to work, but you can get over that and learn from it, and go forward. Your partner not knowing themselves, representing one thing, and ultimately, after the frenzy is over saying they now have gotten 'that' out of their system - man that hurts down to the bone. I guess the bottom line is, as much as 'internal work' is needed; so is the skill to know when your potential partner hasn't done any, or is lying about themselves to serve a personal agenda.

crouchingtigress -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 9:04:09 AM)
it is funny....most folks myself included fear doing self work...and put it off for years...but it is just the fear of the unknown ...as soon as you start asking the questions, you realise it is really fun.. a few questions that helped me were what do i like my day to look like what are important traits in a partner where do i see my self a month for now where do i see myself in a year what does my 20 year picture look like what am i willing to change in myself to get where i want to go where am i unwilling to compromise what went wrong in my last relationships that i fully own who are the closest people in my life and why are they the closest people in my life what can i do that is self nourishing every single day, what can i do that is earth nourishing every single day who knew it could be so simple and so fun to explore...

agirl -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 10:27:55 AM)
Getting to know yourself takes a long time and each relationship I've been in has been different and reflected different parts of myself back to me, thus causing a bit more navel-gazing that wouldn't have taken place otherwise. I simply knew what I knew at the time. I don't always need to know why I am the person I am, it's enough to justbe. I know that I don't think or feel the same way I did 2 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago therefore I expect to think and feel differently in the future. I am not on a quest to figure everything out about myself, I am content for the majority of the time just to experience things and see what happens. Not very scientific but works for me. It's not easy to get any great realisations about ourselves on our own; humans are notoriously bad at being honest with themselves on certain levels and not everyone has people around them that can give them a leg-up or to make it a venture worth trying. As with everything , it's far easier to write/talk about these things than to actually do them. agirl

mettadas -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 11:41:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheGaggingWh0re After I read in a magazine article, "It is okay if you're not trying to find yourself", I determined that it was truly and honestly okay. Any necessary growth will come whether I think deeply on it or not. As LA says, there is a time and a place for everything. I'm not sure there is such a thing as "Necessary growth", since there is probably no universal answer to the question "Necessary for what?" I do believe that more effort yields more growth, if the effort is well directed (and that's a big if). Obsessing over a desperate need to "Grow! Now Dammit!" is probably going yield a low return on investment. Simple steps like spending less time with the distractions we use to avoid thinking uncomfortable thoughts can be very productive. Mettadas

mettadas -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 11:52:17 AM)
quote: Missokyst wrote: I am not sure people know how to be happy. There is a fascinating book called Stumbling on Happiness. If you read it, it will become very clear that we mostly haven't got a clue, and often we are sure that this or that makes us happy, when in fact it does quite the opposite.

Lumus -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 1:54:25 PM)
Too funny. I read the part about why relationships fail and heard these little voices: "You don't listen to me anymore!" "Of course I do. Wait. Who the hell are you again?" [Those who know me will not be surprised that I've said something similar several times in my life.] I tend to view people as plastic by nature, flexible and imperfect to allow for adaptability - including adapting to others. We learn from others, even about ourselves, and not necessarily things we want to know. That's half the fun. Keeping strictly to introspection, though, I can relate to knowing people who make the same mistake and are always surprised by the result [Ani Difranco, anyone?]. Most of those folk will not learn from imparted wisdom; they have to clue in themselves. You can say they're entitled to happiness; they're also entitled to choice. Choice wins, to my way of thinking; what value does forced happiness hold? So let them stumble, let them learn [and perhaps, make some popcorn for the show]. Each individual has to make this choice on their own terms, and the value of doing so is really subjective to anyone else. Is self-analysis good? Not for everyone. Let them decide, I say... ...I'll be over here... [sm=popcorn.gif]

TheGaggingWh0re -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 2:29:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mettadas I'm not sure there is such a thing as "Necessary growth", since there is probably no universal answer to the question "Necessary for what?" Necessary growth meaning any sort of growth that needs to be done for me to handle a situation appropriately, etc. I didn't mean necessary growth for people in groups, but as individuals with their own unique needs. quote: I do believe that more effort yields more growth if the effort is well directed (and that's a big if). Obsessing over a desperate need to "Grow! Now Dammit!" is probably going yield a low return on investment. There are a lot of variables that effect how your personal growth feels to you. I wouldn't rely solely on effort as a measure toward my own growth. And I hope you didn't envision me going, "Grow! Now damnit!", as I'm assuming is what you mean, 'cause that is far from the truth. I was doing some serious soul-searching before I realized that it's not that big of a deal for me. I'm growing and learning now without having to dig deep or question things about myself. I knew all along, it was just the unnecessary effort I was exerting that blinded me from what was staring me in the face. quote: Simple steps like spending less time with the distractions we use to avoid thinking uncomfortable thoughts can be very productive. That all depends.

nhite -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 6:42:21 PM)
i have to say that by starting to explore bdsm, i've done more discovery of myside inside than anything else and i do NOT mean in terms of play limits reading about limits for a scene and boundaries caused me to realize vanilla situations where i hadn't had them; i find understanding the base concept of boundaries has even made me a stronger parent i dont know how the general population manages to develop these things in themselves but for me, its coming about this way. and its frustrating as hell that something that has been so powerfully, positively GOOD for me (and this is when i dont have a d/s relationship at all) is something i cant talk about to the bulk of society and somethign that makes me repulsive to some very significant people

kiwisub12 -> RE: Internal work (7/3/2008 7:38:45 PM)
my necessary work included learning to be easy on myself - i wasn't as bad as i thought i was. It also included learning how to trust others, and how to have fun. One of the first questions my therapist asked me was "what did i do for fun". i couldn't answer him. sad isn't it. The work i did in therapy has enabled me to trust, love , like and have fun with a (gasp!) man. not only that, i entered into the bdsm life, and love it. Thereapy is great! It took a major upset with one of my um's to push me into therapy - and now i credit it with my present happiness.

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