Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Apes' Rights


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Apes' Rights Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:00:52 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		Whatcha think?  I think it's time. http://www.slate.com/id/2194568/?GT1=38001

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:42:02 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		The stupidity of animal rights people knows no bounds. I especially like the part about "since we are related to them by evolution".... If you want to take it that far - we are related to the microbial slime on the bottom of a pond by evolution - the quintiesential "primordial ooze". Furthermore, to be technical we arent related to apes by evolution...The notion of linear progression is passe, and evolution in considered to function as a branching bush. Therefore apes are offshoots of an earlier primate - they are an inferior species that branched and didnt achieve dominance because of their inferior adaptations.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:50:13 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

The stupidity of animal rights people knows no bounds. I especially like the part about "since we are related to them by evolution".... If you want to take it that far - we are related to the microbial slime on the bottom of a pond by evolution - the quintiesential "primordial ooze". Furthermore, to be technical we arent related to apes by evolution...The notion of linear progression is passe, and evolution in considered to function as a branching bush. Therefore apes are offshoots of an earlier primate - they are an inferior species that branched and didnt achieve dominance because of their inferior adaptations.

So, therefore, they do not feel pain, nor hunger, nor desire to live free and we are entitled to kill for sport or cage for display or incarcerate for laboratory testing... gee what a "superior", compassionate species we are....
 
While I respect your right to your opinion.. I do not concur (obviously) 

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:53:57 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Animal rights' extremists seem to have co-opted the scientific community of Spain.  Do we really need to depart from 'preventation of cruelty to animals' in order to teach evolution? 
 
Things must be just dandy in Spain if the legislature has nothing better to do than this.
 
candystripper

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:57:30 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		The problem with calling it "Rights" is the Problem because one must envoke thier rights and an APE is unable to therfore it will be a person who envokes thier rights for them making a Mockery of the idea of rights in the first place.

Put laws into effect that say that an Ape cannot be hunted or used for any cruel or possible painful purpose and hunting them is a crime punishable by death but don't give the goddamned dirty apes Rights. That's just retarded.

This easier Softer way Bullshit is ruining the world.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 8:59:03 AM   
hizgeorgiapeach


Posts: 1672
Status: offline 		What do I think?  I'm almost afraid to say what I Really think, because I know if I Do, it'll unleash a shitstorm of attack on varying levels.  I'm going to anyway though, and ta hell in a handbasket for those who will boo, hiss, and otherwise villify my opinions.
 
While I'm not a creationist by any means, nor am I religious in the least bit (especially in the conventional sense of that word) - I do not consider myself to be in any way related to apes, nor have I ever considered myself such.  No more than I consider myself related to every Human on the planet.  Such relationship - on the off chance that it concievably exists - is so far removed from me biologically as to have utterly no significance.  You (generic) wanna consider yourself related to apes?  Feel free - but don't expect me to do more than snicker at you about it.
 
Morally significant Characteristics?  Morals are a learned perversion, which change with the context of time and culture.  What we, as modern 21st century western society consider to be "moral" would have been considered to be extremely Immoral even in our own earlier history, and there are things which we consider to be grossly immoral which were not only considered morally correct but Preferable to various other socieities.  Hell, there are things that we, as western society, consider "immoral" which Current middle eastern society considers that way and vise versa.  Show me where they are Ethically similar to humans, and this particular point might hold some weight.  Morals? Pppphhhhhttttt.

_____________________________

Rhi
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Essential Scentsations

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:01:07 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline 		will they have gay rights?

_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.
I am flawed.
Imperfect.
MUST SPANK!!!
SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:04:29 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I am sure that they would since homosexuality is common among the Primate world as a sign of dominance.

So we would give batter rights to Apes than we do to people don't that just piss you off?

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to faerytattoodgirl)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:14:17 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		I happen to like dolphins better than apes.  Do we extend this mammilian rights movement to the sea?
 
Why isn't it sufficient to pass and enforce adequate 'prevention of cruelty' laws?
 
candystripper

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:15:28 AM   
faerytattoodgirl


Posts: 5824
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I am sure that they would since homosexuality is common among the Primate world as a sign of dominance.

So we would give batter rights to Apes than we do to people don't that just piss you off?

Steel


yes i know...just as it is among cats.  will the apes get free banana's??? and when will there be a city of apes like in the movie???


_____________________________

I did not reply to your cmail.
I am flawed.
Imperfect.
MUST SPANK!!!
SPAAAAAAAANK!!!

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:41:52 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

The stupidity of animal rights people knows no bounds.


There is no way that everything that everyone who considers themselves an "animal rights" person says or does for the cause they believe in is stupid.  I know that there are some that are over zealous in the extreme but I also know there are level headed people that are just believe in not causing undue harm to animals.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 9:47:05 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

So, therefore, they do not feel pain, nor hunger, nor desire to live free and we are entitled to kill for sport or cage for display or incarcerate for laboratory testing... gee what a "superior", compassionate species we are....
 
While I respect your right to your opinion.. I do not concur (obviously) 


Yes I am sure they feel pain and they get hungry. I do not believe they have the "desire to live free" as I dont think they have higher thinking functions at all. I have been to the zoo many times, and I have seen various primates in the wild in Africa and they are not nearly as human as people like to think.

They arent exactly great thinkers - in fact they dont function beyond the belonging level of Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs. Obviously they meet their pysiological needs (as does any organism including parasites) , they meet their safety needs, and SOME species are group oriented and thus fill the belonging need. (Which MAY be strictly for physiological or safety needs and I am thus giving them more credit than they deserve),,, However, they do nothing for esteem or self actualization needs. They do not have esteem, they do not seek or offer respect, they have no moral code or creativity etc...  Essentially you are talking about a species that exists solely to eat, fuck, fling shit at each other, masturbate when not fucking, find more food, fling more shit, form violent bands to prey upon those around them and pick fleas off one another... (Gee when you put it that way they sound like the Hurricane Katrina refugees LOL) So no I dont believe they "Desire to live free" and the fact that they feel pain and hunger doesnt impress me. So does a rat, hunger is what brings a rat to a trap and rest assured rats scream in that trap if not killed instantly.

As for killing them for sport, I have hunted Africa several times as I am of Afrikaaner heritage and I have never shot one for sport nor do I know anyone else who has. The hunting of primates is pretty much a native thing, sustinenece hunting from African tribal people. Hunting for meat by tribal peoples is not exactly "sport hunting". Now I am sure that some westerner somewhere has shot one for sport, but I dont know any who have and they arent on the menu at my favorite South African outfitter.  Me I go for plains game or one of the cats, not some freaking monkey LOL.

As for display - zoos and aquariums provide a critical survival and conservation function. The tiger would be extinct if not for captive zoo populations and many species are maintained in breeding populations in zoos and then reintroduced to the wild. Captive animals are generally protected and well cared for and they raise public awarenss and provide an opportunity for millions to see and be aware of amazing creatures they may otherwise never see. Lets be frank - most people have neither the financial resources nor desire to go to Africa to see things in the wild. (I happen to have family in South Africa, and inherited some property there, hence my connection) We certainly cant pack up entire elementary school classes and to send them on safari  We can however have a field trip to the zoo, or the circus... Thus the only opportunity most will ever have to see these animals is via the zoo or circus. The animals in a zoo also do not wind up over some tribal campfire....

As for medical research. Sorry but in my opinions humans must always take precedence. I have been accused many times here of being uncompassionate, racists, uncaring whatever - but right now AIDs is ravaging Africa and I wouldnt be surprised if within 100 years there is nobody left in subsaharan Africa except the white Afrikaaners (who have HIV rates in line with most western nations) If sacrificing a few hundred, or even a few thousand, lower primates provides a cure that saves millions of lives, as well as cultures and civilizations that have been around since the dawn of time, I would say it is a moral imperative to conduct the research. Even the AIDs problem aside, take something like MD, do you want to tell some little cripple girl its too bad she will never walk or run or play like the other kids but the apes they need for research have rights? 


(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:02:36 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MusicalBoredom

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

The stupidity of animal rights people knows no bounds.


There is no way that everything that everyone who considers themselves an "animal rights" person says or does for the cause they believe in is stupid.  I know that there are some that are over zealous in the extreme but I also know there are level headed people that are just believe in not causing undue harm to animals.


I do not consider "not causing undue harm to animals" to be "animal rights" movement. I do not cause undo harm to animals... I have a Siameese cat who owns me and rules my house, a yellow lab who is very well cared for. two betta fish including one who is over 2 years old which is amazing for a Betta, and a salt water reef tank... Before my last marriage I owned, and cared for, a number of venomous snakes - including a Rhinkhals Cobra and a Black Mamba. (however my ex had two kids and I didnt think the kids should cohabitate with hot snakes so I donated them to a zoo.) Thus I dont harm animals for some sadistic pleasure of doing so.

Yes I hunt and fish, but that is done humanely (I wont fire unless I know I will kill cleanly) and is my right as higher up the food chain. Huinting and fishing also plays a crucial conservation role.

My problem with animal "rights" is that rights must be understood, protected, defended, and appreciated. Animals do not have this capacity and the notion of them having rights is a slippery slope. I mean where is the boundry going to be defined as to what has a right to life? Should we reintroduce smallpox to the wild? Take it out of the freezer and put it back into natural reservoirs I mean its a living organism so doesnt it have "rights"? Who are we to vaccinate our kids against polio - that is cutting down the habitat for that living organism? How about the rattlesnake in the backyard, move it / kill it  or does it have the right to be there?  The idea of rights is just a slippery slope with no end in sight. Before you know it someone will be telling me that Blue Crabs have rights an that they cant be on my plate because they want to live free and happy....

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:10:01 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		DA, except for the lumping of Katrina refugees into one category I concur.  What I hear you saying is along the lines of balance and thoughtful usage rather that explotation or cruelty.  Basically that animals will be sacraficed in the name of good even though we should have some thought in that regard.

[edit:  i was writing this post before #13 showed up.  I also agree with most of what you said there also -- that balance and thought are key.]

< Message edited by MusicalBoredom -- 7/2/2008 10:13:49 AM >

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:14:51 AM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I am an Avid Carnivore however 30 days about the guy who has to live with the Vegan for 30 days, I watched the way they treated the Cattle and I have to admit I wasn't happy about it. It doesn't make me want to stop eating meat it does however make me want to find another way of doing it that is less violent.

Steel

< Message edited by SteelofUtah -- 7/2/2008 10:15:14 AM >

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:17:14 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Long ago in school (college) , in crafting a logic question I put forth the idea that 2 species came together and exchanged language.  The smarter species was the one that learned both languages. 

I was using the Dolphin experiments as an example at the time.  My proposition was that Dolphins were smarter than humans because they learned to speak both Dolphin and human but we never learned to speak Dolphin. 

I was countered with an argument saying that humans provided Dolphins with learning tools and it was an unfair assessment.  My response was that the human speech and language learning tools we presented were as alien to Dolphins as the ones they constantly present to us.  What makes everyone so sure that Dolphins aren’t chattering away at us as desperately as we chatter away at them in an effort to communicate?  They are certainly smart enough to recognize we are a different species and don’t speak their language.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 7/2/2008 10:18:02 AM >

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:22:07 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I am an Avid Carnivore however 30 days about the guy who has to live with the Vegan for 30 days, I watched the way they treated the Cattle and I have to admit I wasn't happy about it. It doesn't make me want to stop eating meat it does however make me want to find another way of doing it that is less violent.

Steel


I am right there with you!

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 10:25:09 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

I am an Avid Carnivore however 30 days about the guy who has to live with the Vegan for 30 days, I watched the way they treated the Cattle and I have to admit I wasn't happy about it. It doesn't make me want to stop eating meat it does however make me want to find another way of doing it that is less violent.

Steel
http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to SteelofUtah)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 12:31:18 PM   
pixidustpet


Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline 		if you've ever raised animals for family food....you know what dirty beasts they can be even with human support to keep their habitats clean.  apes might be smarter than the average snail, but they arent up to cleaning up after themselves.  (hmm, nor is the average teenager, without much parent prompting!)

the fact is, they arent at the same level of intellect as a human.  not that they're better or worse than us, just not at the same level of intellect.  i dont think animals deserve "human" rights.  i think they do deserve humane treatment, even when they are food animals.

and yes, i *do* know what it takes to raise and butcher animals, and i (as a tree hugging pagan type) think on that and the sacrifice needed for that animal flesh to feed me, and the byproducts to make my life nicer (yay leather!).  it doesnt make me better, it just makes my mind run a little off-track compared to other peoples'.

kitten

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Apes' Rights - 7/2/2008 12:47:41 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		Animal rights and animal welfare are 2 very very different ideals .... I am a supporter of animal welfare and totally opposed to animal rights.  
The animal rights groups want to give animal the same equal rights as human ...the problem is animals cannot understand those concepts ...they live by the laws of nature ...kill or be killed,  or flee or be eaten ,  given them human rights and   when a dog kills  a cat .. they have to be offered a lawyer to represent them in a murder trial... we would have to offer them freedom of movement just like any human  but unfortunately they do not understand the concepts of littering.. trepassing etc so would be subject to the law... you want to give a gorilla the same rights as a human  then we also have to give them the right to bare arms...but they have no concept of when it is acceptable to use ....  giving animals inalienable human rights will not work for them...you would only be creating a death sentence for them by doing so... this is what animal rights groups are pressing for

instead the sanest thing to do is offer them welfare rights...meaning they have the right to be cared for  in a humane caring  manner and ensure they have their needs met meaning we become their guardians but allow them to be themselves and live according to their laws not forcing them to conform to ours




_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to MusicalBoredom)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Apes' Rights Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078