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Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 10:09:37 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
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From: another planet
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quote:

Only one of my relationships fits into this mould. Sir and i do not have love in our relationship and nor do either of us want it. We don't even have a friendship per se. If i ceased to function as an adequate slave it would just plain and simple be over.


This was my reply to Stephann's thread on having love in a relationship and why people think relationships without it are deficient or inferior. Watching replies to that thread i have to think that people who do not need/ want love are in the minority. I may be wrong though!
It got me to thinking though that the fact i don't need / want love from Sir and that we also do not have a friendship per se would make me a definite minority.
The question of friendship once arose for me and Sir when we were discussing status. The following was the result............
 
For me there are two different categories of status! The first, impersoonal status includes class, financial, job. The second is personal staus and includes friend, lover, husband, wife, colleague, girlfriend, boyfriend, dom and sub.
Whilst discussing personal status with Sir i said that i thought we had a friendship as well as the D/s dynamic. Sir questioned my statement asking whether i would rather be his friend or be used for his enjoyment, amusement and pleasure? i replied off the cuff by saying i would rather have both. The reply i recieved showed obvious displeasure in my response so i began to ponder the question a little deeper!
After careful thought i realised that the area i saw us having a friendship in (the conversations we have) actually have nothing to do with us being friends. Sir and i have these conversations because he allows them and that they are for his pleasure and amusement.
I related this to Sir and he then asked how i thought friendship would change the dynamic between us? The simplistic answer i gave was that it just would and i did not desire any other dynamic than the one we have. Sir replied that my reply left a lot to be desired!
To look a little deeper, in my opinion friends are usually on an equal footing, equal standing, of equal personal status. Friends usually make joint decisions on things like where to go, what to do etc. Friends discuss issues and compromise when the need arises.
The dynamic Sir and i have does not give me equal footing, equal standing, equal status. It does not give me the rights to make decisions about where we go or what we do. Nor does it mean Sir has to discuss issues or compromise with me.
Friendship would blur the lines of our dynamic, ie, when to be Sir and piece of filth and when to be friends. It would give me a personal status i i do not desire! I am perfectly happy being a piece of filth used by him and nothing more. It would also alter the headspace i have with him. The power would shift slightly in my opinion. This would cause difficulties in mevel of submission as i would perhaps think more along the lines us being friends (discussion, compromise, more equal status) rather than the truth which is i am there for his use, enjoyment and pleasure.
 
I guess im just leaving this for open discussion really. Interested to see if anyone else (and i know the answer is usually yes but im dubious on this one) has the kind of dynamic that has no room for love or friendship?






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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 10:42:30 AM   
DominantJenny


Posts: 645
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		Hrm. I think maybe it's a bit about compartmentalization. (Holy hell that's a long word to type! :P) In my experience, one can have multiple roles and simply know when each is appropriate. I could hang out with a submissive as a friend then switch to treating them as nothing more than a slave to be used then switch back to being a friend.
While friends may have equal status, they don't HAVE to; friendship, as I define it, is about two (or more) people who enjoy each other's company and choose that company over a random stranger's as a rule. A deeper friendship involves a bond, where both people care about the other's welfare and happiness and would be unhappy/disappointed to never encounter that person again. If you want someone who does not care about your welfare and happiness as a dominant, then, yes, a close friendship would not be desirable.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 10:47:24 AM   
MasterHermes


Posts: 136
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline 		Your reasoning is coming from the idea of friendship represents equality . Actually if you have a chance to talk about these things with him, if he knows your past, your feelings, if he asks you questions, likes and dislikes your answers, explains you things, then there is actually a friendship in your D/s relationship. No it doesn't mean you are like vanilla friends. But you still have a friendship and relationship in the form of D/s.

In the absence of love and friendship you would experience slavery in a very different way than you already are. The reason it is confusing us , we , most people, see this communication, this openness as a very natural thing. We say it is a very important element of a successful D/s relationship (and all other relationships) . We forget all these things enabling us having D/s relationships we have today are coming from love and friendship. Not in forms of vanilla love and friendship, but ithey are still there.

If you were enslaved by a man who really has no love and no element of friendship , it would be very different than what you tell us today. It doesn't matter if he allows these things because he enjoys them. Of course he is in charge. But it doesn't change the fact that he wants these elements in his life .

These being said , analyzing the situation may not bring you happiness. If he says there is no room for love and friendship in your dynamics happiness would come from never analyzing it.

Be well
Hermes

< Message edited by MasterHermes -- 6/25/2008 10:49:23 AM >

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 10:55:38 AM   
Floggings4You


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline 		I consider My submissive My friend, as well as My submissive, My lover, My girlfriend, etc.  I absolutely do not consider her to be anything whatsoever like a "piece of filth"-- 
 
--and I simply do not understand that mindset, unless its just for fantasy purposes.  I value Myself, and I value My opinions, and I put a great deal of thought into most decisions.  Thus, I choose My posessions with care (and, hopefully, taste) and I take care of My stuff such that its able to continue to bring Me pleasure and usefulness for years, even decades, to come.
 
I would not soil Myself with a "piece of filth"; I can certainly do (much) better than that.  Your Master may enjoy calling you a "piece of filth", but I wonder if He has really considered all of the implications of that label; the ways that such a label for you also reflects on Him?



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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 10:57:50 AM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		i dont think that friendship in a D/s relationship automatically equates to compromise it certainly doesnt confuse the equal footing status that would be found in a vanilla relationship and i dont need to discuss His decisions on things relating to me and what he wants from me, unless He wishes to.  but we have a friendship none the less because we both want one and are looking to the long haul, long term, forever sort of relationship that wouldnt be sustainable without it - its alot to do with others attached to us aswell, we both have a kid each, friends and family.

i have no doubt that a compromise would be found by Him, if i really needed a compromise, but it would probably be a slightly lopsided one in his favour.

personally i dont confuse the dynamic atall, because the dynamic is always there, just not always overtly so.  i do little things in public noone would notice that tell Him He comes first, they might wash over him, if he's particularly distracted by something, but that doesnt matter - there is no equal footing, i dont want an equal footing, but we are friends.

in private together he might ask me some question and im rabbitting back some answer and as i am his expression changes and everything swings that way.  i never stop being his sub, but i never stop being his friend either.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 1:18:05 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think being my slave means being my slave and lover to some degree.

However recently a person who failed as my slave (he walked instead of trying to work things out) also lost status as my friend because it hurt him to much to talk to me and not be able to have me -- his decision to leave in the first place.... *shakes head*


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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 1:40:06 PM   
tsclittlecupcake


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Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		Hi --

It seems to me that it could be something that worked for some and something that didn't work for others. Also, as with most things in an M/s dynamic, some tops will define roles in a very harsh strict manner so as to be clear where lines and boundaries lay and others tend to be less line oriented themselves, so they would define fewer lines for their bottoms to have to follow.

Instead of saying it's 'bad' or 'good' which are always personal opinion type judgments, it might be better to say, "Does this work for me... personally?" The rest is just bilge in the bottom of a ship. What difference does it make what others think as long as the M/s relationship you seek out and find works for you? Once someone is comfortable in their own skin, their personal choices or the choices made for them by their top, other things fade away to a distant unnecessary worry.

the cupcake

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:09:25 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I had a relationship with someone that lasted for a couple years where there was no friendship or love.  It was what it was, but I'm not sure what it was.  He was a guys's guy and talked about beer,  baseball, and gambling, the on-line game we both played and sex.  He would explain things to me, and I learned enough about baseball and gambling (beer's rather straightforward and I got that one covered and I knew more about sex than he did) to hold up my end of the conversation.  And, we'd spend alot of time arguing about the game we played, though, in the end, I always deferred to his judgement.  (he was rather combative and seemed to like to have someone to argue with who never actually won the debate) Mostly, I just provided a foil for him. We got together every month or 6 weeks, but, except for one occasion, never spent more than a couple hours together.  When the sex was done, he was out the door almost as if he couldnt get out of there fast enough.  In no sense were we equals--he called the shots--and it would be hard to define our relationship as a friendship because he put almost nothing into it that would have required anything resembling an effort.  When it came time for him to learn how to beat me, I provided the ping pong paddle and told him exactly how to use it on my butt. He was lazy by his own admission so I went out of my way to make things easy for him.

At the time, I was in the middle of a really hard time in my life, and this relationship was very important to me, like an anchor.  I needed something to compulsively attach to lest I be set adrift on an endless ocean.  He provided exactly that, and not one bit more.  It was perfect in its own way.  In fact, I don't think I've ever had a relationship that was quite so perfect.  It was what it was meant to be.


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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:15:52 PM   
RavenMuse


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Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		..


< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 6/25/2008 2:16:15 PM >

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Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:17:35 PM   
metalmiss


Posts: 341
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Croydon, UK
Status: offline 		((Grrrr i hate the fact that it keeps Him logged in even when i've switched over on the other side.. Catches me out EVERY time!!))

A very interesting thread..

In contemplating my Dynamic with my Master, i am left with the thought that i join you in your "minority" here..
my Master and i care for each other deeply, myself as a girl should care for and respect her Owner.. He as one might care for a deeply cherished possession. There is no "love".. Nor is there any need for it.
But what is "love" except an overrated & deeply careless emotion, a word thrown around far too frequently in order to manipulate others.. (Not a general criticism of anybody who uses the term within their own relationships & dynamics - just my thoughts on the term itself).
The reality is that if my Master ceased to find me pleasing or if the spark died irretrievably and either of Us no longer felt fulfilled this Dynamic then We would just go Our seperate ways.

i also agree with what you say about friendship requiring equality between two people..
If my Master and i knew each other without a Dynamic, then because of our similar views and beliefs i can see there would be a potential there for a friendship. However, there is a Dynamic.. and so i do not consider Us to be "friends".
We are closer and more at home in each others presence than i have ever experienced with just a friend. The openness in communication required to live Our chosen lifestyle to this level lends itself to that. We do discuss issues, i am encouraged to give my opinion in all areas of my life.. But He always makes the decision. Within the closeness between Us is a clear cut knowledge of His expectations of His property. Our Dynamic is not a static one.. and the lines often blur between what We are within that..
But in love? Or friends? Never.. Something i would never want to change. Though i would never look down on anybody who would declare either of these things as applying to their Dynamic.. It just doesn't work for me thats all.

_____________________________

"The longing to serve, to submit, to abandon oneself sexually, emotionally, and physically makes one a slave either to a Man, a Woman or to God. Submission to that passion is divine degradation." - Dorothy C. Hayden

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:34:17 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Just an interesting aside here.... this is one of the oldest debates in the book when it comes to leadership in general.  In the business context, you hear this all the time... "Don't get emotionally near those you are leading because it weakens your leadership position and also makes it difficult to do the necessary hard things (reprimands, firing, etc.)."  You also hear the flip side argument, "Without strong emotional bonds, why on earth would my team go the extra mile for me.  And insofar as doing the tough things even when it's a friend, that's why I'm strong."  To my knowledge, it's a chocolate and vanilla style thing with no real "answer" or "best fit" solution.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:37:06 PM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsclittlecupcake

Instead of saying it's 'bad' or 'good' which are always personal opinion type judgments, it might be better to say, "Does this work for me... personally?" The rest is just bilge in the bottom of a ship. What difference does it make what others think as long as the M/s relationship you seek out and find works for you?


Well, I could add a few more questions...
  • Does this work for me?  (your original question)
  • Does this work for someone else?  (just because someone is doing something doesn't mean it's working for them)
  • Might it work for me too even though it's unfamiliar and maybe even creepy somehow?
  • Even if it doesn't work for me, what can I learn about relationships, myself, and people in general from it?

Frankly, if it all came down to just whatever I happened to already know and think, then I can't imagine why I'd be wasting my time on these and other boards talking to other people.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 2:40:25 PM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		I have a friend who calls me "his sub" to differentiate me and our relationship from "his girlfriend" and "his wife".  I'm the sub.  That said, he does not own me, we are friends, but he treats me as a submissive, understands when I say I'm uncomfortable on the furniture when he's on the floor but does it anyway, and generally there's an understanding that he will ask for things and I will do them and I fit around his life not the other way round.  That said, there's also an understanding that, his life permitting, if I have something I need, I can ask him.  He is there for me as a supportive person, emotionally speaking.  We're friends, but not in a purely vanilla sense.

I think it's actually kind of hard to explain this relationship.  Meah, we're happy with each other, that's what matters.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 3:02:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

This was my reply to Stephann's thread on having love in a relationship and why people think relationships without it are deficient or inferior.



You're not free until you've walked in fire.......heartache and love....we're humans, with a broad spectrum of needs and desries...I'd include love....

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 3:03:51 PM   
MasterHermes


Posts: 136
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: metalmiss

((Grrrr i hate the fact that it keeps Him logged in even when i've switched over on the other side.. Catches me out EVERY time!!))

A very interesting thread..

In contemplating my Dynamic with my Master, i am left with the thought that i join you in your "minority" here..
my Master and i care for each other deeply, myself as a girl should care for and respect her Owner.. He as one might care for a deeply cherished possession. There is no "love".. Nor is there any need for it.
But what is "love" except an overrated & deeply careless emotion, a word thrown around far too frequently in order to manipulate others..


I usually dont post one thread over and over again for going into specific conversation with other posters, but I think I need to point something here. I do not know if that forum picture belongs to you or if its just a random choice. If it is you, there is love in that picture. People use the word love too specific perhaps because they learn it from movies or books .. This is romance, this is being in love they are taught, and if it doesn't happen they get disappointed. But that is a very limited way of describing love. I do not know who are those people in that picture but without love that scene could never occur (if its a real picture instead of a setup). We expect too much from love, while without it there would be no world we know right now. Or perhaps we really dont understand its power even when its not easily visible as romance. You do think we are already living in hell and things are as bad as it can be right? No , despite all difficulties we are still living in a world we experience love, and it is still what keeps us together.

You keep "not loving" each other. If this idea keeps you in each others arms, never love each other. As long as you never find yourself in a life love really can not exist , however you see the world is fine.

Be always loved
Hermes

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 3:08:51 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		great thread hun ...

I have many many friends from the scene, and with many of them there is a degree of Ds in our friendship. It is the friendship that happens first, and then elemets of Ds creep in.

With DV the Ds comes first, and is always the foundation. As you said in your OP there is friendship present but it never compromises the Ds. Negotiation, compromise, equality ... those are superficial, and are swept aside the instant they conflict with Ds. From the other side of the world the day to day service is obvioulsy very limited. I can offer DV friendship though - in the form of love, support, companionship, sharing in silliness and dark times.

Our relationship is very friendly, and personally I hope we can always have that because it creates a warm and positive atmosphere. However it will not ever be kept at the cost of our Ds dynamic.

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 3:17:34 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

To me, a friend is someone I can turn to when I'm crying as well as laughing. Someone who understands my flaws as well my strengths and enjoys spending time with me anyway. Someone I can catch a movie with.

For me (AND ONLY ME), if a dominant isn't my friend and/or lover in addition to being the person who beats me, he's just a play partner - someone I have equal power to. I provide what he wants, an ass to beat and service, as long as he provides what I want. Even those I'm friends with can be just play partners but you certainly don't have a chance of owning me if I don't even like you as a friend.  It's the emotional connection that makes me want to kneel and stay there.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 3:56:15 PM   
TysGalilah


Posts: 589
Joined: 11/21/2007
Status: offline
Miss

You may not be as much in the minority as you think. 
 
I am not his wife, and will never be.
We do not live together, and never will.
Our relationship began with no love nor lust.  Compatibility and a deep trust was very strong.  A friendship was established before the Ds dynamics began.  It was not an accident and not an accident that we found each other.  We both have very certain criteria to work with  within the boundaries of our relationship that is hard to find compatible.  we did : )
 
There were no rules about  not falling in love...but it was not promised or anticipated. 
 
After 11 years I consider Tyson my best friend. I feel for  him more deeply than I have ever felt love for another person ( other than my children ) I think it is because of the level of trust and complete disclosure along with the defined roles... .  It is not a romantic love.  Its not a friendship like one with a peer.  The roles and Ds dynamics are still very much alive and well.
 
But I do not think it is a necessity...or that a relationship is lacking or inferior that doesnt  include love . .
 
Miss
when you bring up the degradation/humilation that is a part of your relationship..and the headspace your Dtype is concerned about alterring> I can understand that.
Degradation is not a part of our relationship, so I cannot relate but I can understand the concern about the "friendship" >
Personally I think they are all possible...but I can understand his concern.
Hopefully you will get some imput from others who can relate from their personal experience and know it can work.


 

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 4:15:11 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		I've read and re-read your opening post.
I've read through the responses thus far.
I honestly wish I could answer you and make a contribution but I cannot/ I cannot because I really strugg;e with labels and definitions.
All I know is that my world exists as an array of infinitly different relationships, most of them phenomena (that is to say that those rleationships have just happened , are happening and new ones will without become to happen. Relationship also exists, have always existed for others, and will always exist for me. My main life philosphy is that reationship NEVER end (even after death).
Anyway with that as background then my relationships are existential-phenomenological......(sorry hon big word) but they are and the moment I try to attach a label then I begin to limit, define, justify, explain and compare those relationships to myself and to others. And that's where I fall down because you know what? Whenever I have felt in the past that I have grasped the nature of a relationship then it's an illusion that that relationship exists inside my existential framework as anywhere near the same phenomena to either the other half of that relationship or to anyone else.
OK: so I might come close in saying at the moment I have a re-kindled D's relationship which is an emergent friendhsip, I have a purely D's consideration oh and many many friends but that doesn't really do any of them justice.
They are the way they are the way they will become.  And each and anyone of my relationships can therefore be re-created in the moment. As a submissive it's the most exciting position for me to have my D re-create the dynamic in that moment. I am most  clear about who I am not them or 'it' meaning the relationship. Fuck labels. Does that make existential sense?

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/25/2008 4:17:09 PM >

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RE: Friendship and the D/s dynamic. - 6/25/2008 4:55:07 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		I suppose it depends on how you define friendship and how you define D/s dynamic.  If you see friends as being equal in decision making status, then I can understand how you would have a difficult time considering a dominant as a friend.

I do not define friendship that way.  The people I choose as my friends is based on their character, who they are and a certain level of trust and confidentiality has been built.  I have had some friendships, where I take the lead in making decisions and some where the other person does. 

For us, M/s defines how the authority is structured in our relationship.  He has it all.  However, it does not preclude love, affection, confidences, trust and all the other aspects that make up friendship, lovers, partners, etc.  He is my Master.  He is also my friend, my confidant, my lover, my partner... 

For us, they do not contradict each other.  For others, they just might be contradictions. 

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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