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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 7:56:18 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

To prevent a thread hijack, I'm starting this new thread based on an exchange between Crouchingtigress and myself, where I mentioned the distinction above.

----

It's not really new.  I cited it in the 1992 edition of Loving Dominant but didn't create it.  Here's a bit from the text:

.  To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.
Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.




Agree that there is a distinction, would not agree that the 'no gain or advancement' is an absolute. 
Either erotic embarrassment or humiliation can be done so as to advance the recipient's exploration of deeply held desires and emotions. 
If they 'get off' on degradation/objectification, then a paradoxical as it sounds, it can be done 'in a good way'.

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 8:12:27 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.

 
I'd have to disagree here. Humiliation i love. It gives me an inner strength. To smile through it, grow and learn from it is a great way for my self worth to improve.
 
quote:

Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.


Personally i find nothing humiliating in that, embarassing yes, humiliating no way. I would find that situation really really funny. In fact it has been done to me and i just stood and carried on talking.


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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 8:16:21 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

 To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.



Correct 


For you maybe.
 
quote:

 Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.



Here you are wrong. 


Again for you maybe.
 
What happened to opinion?
You make it sound as though your opinion is fact.



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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 8:47:51 AM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliena

Whilst I see the distinction John, as a person who enjoys verbal humiliation during a scene I don't understand the value of "erotic embaressment".  For me personally I don't feel degraded or hurt by verbal humiliation I feel liberated by it.  It's hard to put something this visceral into words and I never have done before so apologies if my attempt is clumsy.

To be told during a scene how pathetic, unworthy, disgusting, dirty I am and that my Master loves me still in spite in some cases (depending on what the content of the scene is) because of those traits makes me feel valued. 

I have to agree totally with Deliena above.
Indeed  John in the example yu use: ~Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words~I do not think you gave
It may an example of erotic embarassment in order to make a distinction. And moreover you cite personal opinion as if it were fact.
Erotic embarassment is for me the bacground against which humiliation becomes a foreground peak experience. I'm using the termino;ogy here of Gestalt in as much as I am usiong foreground background as  a way of denoting the whole.
I have to say that I do hold a very real concept and experience of humiliation. It would be humiliation either in a non-bdsm context or within a bdsm context the difference is that I allow and consent to it within a bdsm context whereas shouted at me let's say for arguments sake from a stranger passing in the street then I would report the behaviour. (Another reason why I do not think a behavourist approach is useful in analysing bdsm activities or any activities come to think of it. Needless to say I feel any analysis needs to be done in contextual holistic terms).
I often am off reacting without any analysis during a scene, bought to the very same real tears that any other humiliation would trigger. But the difference is that I recognise that particular hurt as the dearest. It's the cut that is deepest. There are two main mechanisms that heal the cut. The first is the humiliators capacity to want me, to need me, to love me despite my faults and secondly my own mechanisms for enpowering myself during and after the humiliation,
An emotional masochist such as myself is made of extremely strong stuff.
Embarassment?....puuf......chicken play.
Maybe there is a very real difference between so-called loving Dominants and loving sadistic Masters. Or no-one thought to ask the submissives' points of view?


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/18/2008 8:55:15 AM >

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 10:37:03 AM   
bashfulhuck


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Status: offline 		Eept I think Sadism can take many forms. For those that really dig humiliation, that's quite ok in my book, I have nothing against you whatsoever, nor do I think you are crazy for it. In my opinion, our sexuality is something hardwired, it's just who we are, so what turns us on, so long as it's consensual and between adults, is all fair game to me.
My Masochism comes in the form of physical pain. For some reason I'm wired to be able to take a pretty serious amount of it, and love it. Erotic embarassment also is a huge turn on for me, as well as pure unbridled force.
Please do realize that anything I do say is merely coming from my perspective, and in no way would I ever wish to offend any of you.  I just happen to be the type of submissive that will not respond in a positive fashion should someone belittle me, call me names like "fat piece of shit", or degrade me in such a manner. submissive I am, but still a human being that gets hurt feelings, and wants nothing more in my  life than to be loved, cared for and to serve. 
BDSM to me is wonderful because there is such a huge world out there for me yet to explore, and people have such diverse preferences.

Peace and serenity,
the bashful one

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 11:19:41 AM   
SirDominic


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Status: offline 		Like so much else in this lifestyle, being humiliated or embrarassed is completely in the mind of the individual. Not only that, but within the same person's mind, different situations could be either humiliating, or embrarassing depending on how that individual perceived it. People who are into humiliation really need to know what subjects will get the humiliation response that is wanted, versus words that are just hurtful. It can be a tad tricky.....

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 3:49:40 PM   
accipitres


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Status: offline 		 The American Heritage Dictionary says humiliation is a synonym for degradation, while embarrassment means to “to cause to feel self-conscious or ill at ease”

Degradation, on the other hand, means to reduce (de-) in grade or rank

I adore being degraded (and this is probably not the time to go into the "why" of that), but feeling ill at ease doesn't do much for me.

I

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 4:08:20 PM   
TysGalilah


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Not sure you can really do a "vs" or a comparison..

  imo..the difference is more about the mindset, than finding a definition, analogy or example that universally fits  one or the other.   Each person experiences and feelings make it or define it for them.
 
  Something that I do without embarrassment might be total humiliation to another....degrading to another.
  And some other posters have mentioned things that I might qualify as degrading to me...but it is not to them.....perhaps not even creating any embarrassment.
 
 
 

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/18/2008 5:35:49 PM   
agoodgirl4Daddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bashfulhuck

This is a great subject for me to think about on my journey of healing, and I would love to thank you all for your thoughts on this.
I've experienced both complete and total humiliation, and sensual embarassment, and to me they are completely different.
I spent several years in a vanilla relationship that was extremely abusive towards me. For me, one of the most humiliating moments were when her and one of her friends, in the middle of an Albertson's store, at 5PM or so, loudly called me a fat piece of shit. One of the young stock boys there started to laugh about it, and there were alot of people that just stared at me after that. At that very moment, I truly wanted to actually die. My heart was broken, my spirit was broken, and I felt like I had nothing to offer anyone in this life. Yes, my weight was a major issue, I had dealt with a knee surgery, and a broken cervical vertebrae, as well as a fairly serious head injury, and had spent quite a year and a half unable to get out of my house much, and consequently, got depressed, out of shape, and way way overweight for me.
Since leaving her, those things have been rectified. I still have some bodyfat that needs to come off, and I'm extremely self concious about it, but looking at me, you would never think I weigh as much as I do, because of all the gym time I put in, and the muscle I carry.
Sensual embarassment on the other hand, that's just yummy. I blush super super easy, my nickname bashful is very accurate hehe. Just being around a beautiful Domina that I have an attraction to can get me turning furiously red all over my shaved head and face in a heartbeat LOL.
The difference between the two is that humiliation makes me feel less than human, whereas sensual embarassment makes me feel desired, loved and sexy. Wierd I guess, but that's me.

Peace and serenity,
bashfulhuck


You make perfect sense to me.  I am sorry that you were treated so badly in your previous relationship, and I am glad that you have moved on from it. 
 
A definition of humiliation is:
 




humiliation

noun

1. 
state of disgrace or loss of self-respect 

2. 
strong feelings of embarrassment [syn: chagrin] 

3. 
an instance in which you are caused to lose your prestige or self-respect; "he had to undergo one humiliation after another" 

4. 
depriving one of self-esteem 





WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

A definition of embarrassment is:





embarrassment

noun

1. 
the shame you feel when your inadequacy or guilt is made public 

2. 
the state of being embarrassed (usually by some financial inadequacy); "he is currently suffering financial embarrassments" 

3. 
some event that causes someone to be embarrassed; "the outcome of the vote was an embarrassment for the liberals" [ant: disembarrassment] 

4. 
extreme excess; "an embarrassment of riches" [syn: overplus] 



WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.

I'm not sure if the OP was using the term "humiliation" in the definition meaning or if he was using the term as in the BDSM meaning (also known as "ego play").   To me, BDSM humiliation is on a continuum stretching from mild (teasing someone publicly about how "slutty" she is dressed or how "big and hard" his cock is during a scene)  to intense (bordering on degradation).   
 
I tend to differentiate ego play (aka, BDSM - style humiliation) from degradation, thus leaving out the term humiliation, which can be interpreted so many very different ways.  I also like to define what I think is "ego play" ("erotic embarrassment") and what I define as "degradation" when discussing this type of "play" with a scene partner. 
 
To me..ego play builds one up and degradation tears one down.  Personally, I would not want the responsibility of degrading someone to the point of tearing their ego to shreds, because, how does one go in and build them back up without the degradation leaving ugly, lasting emotional scars? 
 
This is why, to me, "Humiliation" (aka, degradation) IS edge play.

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RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment - 6/19/2008 2:33:19 PM   
gypsyfirefly


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For me ... 
 
Embarrassment is something I feel because of whatever situation caused it.
 
Humilation is what someone else hopes they will make me feel due to their actions.
 
As most have said in one way or another, each reaction is dependent upon the individual it is directed at and the indvidual committing the act.

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