Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (Full Version)

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JohnWarren -> Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 12:08:56 PM)

To prevent a thread hijack, I'm starting this new thread based on an exchange between Crouchingtigress and myself, where I mentioned the distinction above.

----

It's not really new.  I cited it in the 1992 edition of Loving Dominant but didn't create it.  Here's a bit from the text:

.  To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.
Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.

As for BadJohn, Crouchingtigress, just check his profile.  [evil laugh]



Deliena -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 1:00:08 PM)

Whilst I see the distinction John, as a person who enjoys verbal humiliation during a scene I don't understand the value of "erotic embaressment".  For me personally I don't feel degraded or hurt by verbal humiliation I feel liberated by it.  It's hard to put something this visceral into words and I never have done before so apologies if my attempt is clumsy.

To be told during a scene how pathetic, unworthy, disgusting, dirty I am and that my Master loves me still in spite in some cases (depending on what the content of the scene is) because of those traits makes me feel valued.  Perhaps this is a case of the situation and the terminology etc. etc. absolutely *has* to be custom fit to the individual in order to be effective.  For one person term x would be humiliation, for another it may be erotic embaressment and the reaction that person has determines whether or not either is ultimately satifying and pleasureable or not.



daddysliloneds -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 1:11:48 PM)

i would not feel humiliated if someone pantsed me in public; i would, however, feel embarrassed.  i don't feel greater self-worth when embarrassed, just as i don't feel degraded or less valued through humiliation; for me, most times, humiliation play is empowering, because when it' said and done, i know i may just in fact, be valued even more.  when i'm embarrassed, i feel shy, or that privacy has been invaded/taken over, and nothing more than that...

sooooooooo, with that said, i suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 4:37:01 PM)

I disagree with the concept that humiliation necessarily causes someone to feel of less worth- certainly not if it's dependent on the reaction of others.  But I would agree that there is a differentiation between embarassment and humiliation.



Stephann -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 4:51:21 PM)

I think what makes this issue murky, is that to be humiliated by another, is not the same as feeling humiliated by another.

A friend of mine comes to mind; if someone maliciously yanked her pants off in public, she wouldn't feel the least bit humiliated.  Yet the intent of the person pantsing her, would have clearly been malicious.  If someone angrily hands me a hundred dollar bill, the act itself isn't upsetting, it's the intention with which he is acting.

I like to slap my slave.  She likes being slapped.  Thus, we have matching intentions.  Someone who is intending on providing 'erotic embarrassment' but ends up with their partner feeling humiliated, is on par with making any other type of mistake (say, flogging someone in the wrong place too hard.)  I once slapped a girl, she jerked, and I hit her ear; she ended up feeling in a way I didn't intend for her to feel.

Some people enjoy feeling humiliated.  Others dread it.  Charlotte has a double edged sword with it; she loves the feeling of being humiliated, but is deathly afraid of that humiliation interfering with her friendships and relationships outside of the lifestyle (her parents, her boss, people on the street.)  Thus, it isn't the humiliation that is an issue, but rather when expectations of that humiliation aren't clearly communicated or are accidentally inflicted in a manner neither partner wanted.

Stephan



Griswold -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 6:07:12 PM)

Very interesting comment John.

I like it (I'm just not exactly sure why yet).



Hierarch -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 6:37:45 PM)

Depends on what kind of mindspace you're in, I'd wager. The same action could affect the individual in different ways depending on whether they're playing it coy, bratty, degraded but defiant, degraded but broken, whatever.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 7:06:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

 To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.


Correct

quote:

  Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.


Here you are wrong.  The example is one that may or may not be bad.  How many vanilla's would say "raping a woman's ass is bad, there is no gain or advancement there."  With your example I could see where that would be bad for some people but a hot fantasy for others.

I think using examples is where we all trip up because what works for you may not work for me.  However, we ALL agree with the difference between doing this with the intent to create a positive erotic outcome and one where the intent is to permanently undermine a person's self worth.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 7:13:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.



Actually, in that situation, the speaker would have no teeth left.

However, my Master humiliating me (which I agree is much different than embarrassing me)?  Oh yeah, lots of gain and advancement! 



MasterZen22 -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/16/2008 11:08:30 PM)

John, I think we may have an issue more about vocabulary than anything else here...

You seem to define humiliation a little different than I do. I like to do certain things during play, like say for example, I'd have a girl strip naked, to kiss my feet,, crawl around on the floor, bark like a dog, whatever... And i only do this with a girl if SHE wants to do them too. She does not feel she has less worth afterwards, it's just fun. And I have always considered that "humiliation."

What about you? Is "humiliation" the word you would use to describe that scene? Or is that what you would term "erotic embarrassment?



here4sex -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 6:40:18 AM)

I feel humiliated by the fact I wasted time on this thread, but embarrassed that I posted a reply. Or, the other way around.



came4U -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 6:46:03 AM)

I don't see being cohersed into an act of humility as a negative at all.

Embarassment, yup, it sure is negative.  That is not any kind of kink up my alley.

Being humbled is erotic, humility implies you are learning...something.  Embarassment leaves no room for improvement, just lack of trust for a similar forthcoming experience in a given situation or location.

To me, embarassment is abuse, while humility is an excercize in educating another.

and haha at here4sex lolll

quote:

I feel humiliated by the fact I wasted time on this thread, but embarrassed that I posted a reply. Or, the other way around.  



pompeii -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 7:01:23 AM)

Always wanted to "humiliate" a gal in a bedroom - just her and me though - no lecturn and audience.
She'd be told to assume all sorts of "embarrassing" positions and to eat like a doggy out of a bowl and to stick her ass in the air.
To me, she'd "feel" humiliated or embarrassed (same thing only differing in degree) where embarrassment is the lessor of the two.
Never did find a gal who I could do that to tho and who'd enjoy it .... :(



came4U -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 7:07:54 AM)

quote:

Never did find a gal who I could do that to tho and who'd enjoy it ....


If she enjoyed it, it would neither be embarassing or humiliating.

It wouldn't bother me at all.  I've been known to be deep into a movie and lick a dinner plate like in the 'blame renee' commercials. pftt. To one it may be shameful, to another it is no different than tying shoes.




chickpea -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 7:32:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

 To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.


Correct

quote:

  Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.


Here you are wrong.  The example is one that may or may not be bad.  How many vanilla's would say "raping a woman's ass is bad, there is no gain or advancement there."  With your example I could see where that would be bad for some people but a hot fantasy for others.

I think using examples is where we all trip up because what works for you may not work for me.  However, we ALL agree with the difference between doing this with the intent to create a positive erotic outcome and one where the intent is to permanently undermine a person's self worth.


if the man whose pants gets pulled down gets aroused from getting exposed in front of that group (probably a kinkster organization) and the person who did it knew it prior to doing it, then that would be erotic embarrassment?  But if the person who pulled down the man's pants didn't know it prior to doing it, and the man gets aroused from someone trying to truely undermine his sense of self worth...is that humiliation or erotic embarrassment?  thanks :-)



Stephann -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 10:07:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chickpea

if the man whose pants gets pulled down gets aroused from getting exposed in front of that group (probably a kinkster organization) and the person who did it knew it prior to doing it, then that would be erotic embarrassment?  But if the person who pulled down the man's pants didn't know it prior to doing it, and the man gets aroused from someone trying to truely undermine his sense of self worth...is that humiliation or erotic embarrassment?  thanks :-)



chickpea,

I think that's what I was trying to address; that it has less to do with the terminology, than it does with the intentions. 

Looking at the terms, I'd say humiliation would be more closely linked to emotional masochism (a person who enjoys being hurt emotionally, without necessarily finding it sexually exciting) while erotic embarrassment being more in line with someone who is sexually excited by being put in a compromising situation (but incurs no emotional pain through the act.)  I think it's a far more complex issue with no real vocabulary in place to make clear distinctions between the reasons and emotions behind the activities.

Stephan



kiwisub12 -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 3:30:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

Always wanted to "humiliate" a gal in a bedroom - just her and me though - no lecturn and audience.
She'd be told to assume all sorts of "embarrassing" positions and to eat like a doggy out of a bowl and to stick her ass in the air.
To me, she'd "feel" humiliated or embarrassed (same thing only differing in degree) where embarrassment is the lessor of the two.
Never did find a gal who I could do that to tho and who'd enjoy it .... :(




To me these things wouldn't be embarassing or humiliating - they would be things i would do because my Sir wanted me to do them. I might wonder why on earth he would want me to do them, but they wouldn't  change my mental state.  Same with doing them infront of a crowd.
i think the key thing for me would be that anyone that would see me in that state wouldn't think less of me for doing them. Infact, it would increase my value (so to speak). Therefore no mental issues for me.



fairerthanshe -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 4:14:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

To prevent a thread hijack, I'm starting this new thread based on an exchange between Crouchingtigress and myself, where I mentioned the distinction above.

----

It's not really new.  I cited it in the 1992 edition of Loving Dominant but didn't create it.  Here's a bit from the text:

.  To me, the primary difference between humiliation and embarrassment is how the activity causes the submissive to feel about himself or herself.  Humiliation degrades, causes the person to feel that he or she is less valued and treasured, while embarrassment can bring out a greater sense of self worth.
Here is an illustration quite separate from the scene itself.  Imagine you are at a formal dinner and the speaker says several complimentary things about you then asks you to come up and say a few words.  You might be embarrassed by the activity, but it would make you feel that you were valued.  Then, as you walk to the rostrum, the speaker steps forward and pulls your pants down, and the audience laughs.  THAT is humiliation.  There is no gain or advancement there.

As for BadJohn, Crouchingtigress, just check his profile.  [evil laugh]


Greetings John,

I disagree based on my own personal interactions with SJ, the one I serve.  We discussed humiliation play early on in our relationship and I told him that it didn't work on me because it hadn't any of the previous times men had tried this with me.

However, SJ got to know me in ways no one ever has before.  He connected with the places in me which are most humble and led me through many of my internal walls with humiliation.  It wasn't pleasant, but it was not something I didn't want.  I find it deepens my enslavement and increases my transparency when he delves into these areas.  Humility and humiliation are very closely connected and the latter is a tool to reach a state which is desired in our relationship.

well wishes ~ fairer than she



bashfulhuck -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/17/2008 4:17:07 PM)

This is a great subject for me to think about on my journey of healing, and I would love to thank you all for your thoughts on this.
I've experienced both complete and total humiliation, and sensual embarassment, and to me they are completely different.
I spent several years in a vanilla relationship that was extremely abusive towards me. For me, one of the most humiliating moments were when her and one of her friends, in the middle of an Albertson's store, at 5PM or so, loudly called me a fat piece of shit. One of the young stock boys there started to laugh about it, and there were alot of people that just stared at me after that. At that very moment, I truly wanted to actually die. My heart was broken, my spirit was broken, and I felt like I had nothing to offer anyone in this life. Yes, my weight was a major issue, I had dealt with a knee surgery, and a broken cervical vertebrae, as well as a fairly serious head injury, and had spent quite a year and a half unable to get out of my house much, and consequently, got depressed, out of shape, and way way overweight for me.
Since leaving her, those things have been rectified. I still have some bodyfat that needs to come off, and I'm extremely self concious about it, but looking at me, you would never think I weigh as much as I do, because of all the gym time I put in, and the muscle I carry.
Sensual embarassment on the other hand, that's just yummy. I blush super super easy, my nickname bashful is very accurate hehe. Just being around a beautiful Domina that I have an attraction to can get me turning furiously red all over my shaved head and face in a heartbeat LOL.
The difference between the two is that humiliation makes me feel less than human, whereas sensual embarassment makes me feel desired, loved and sexy. Wierd I guess, but that's me.

Peace and serenity,
bashfulhuck



Aine -> RE: Humiliation v erotic embarrassment (6/18/2008 7:41:15 AM)

A good point I've seen touched on, (and I stopped reading there, so forgive if I repeat) is that the example given in the OP is a public one.

And a malicious one, that the "victim" wasn't aware was going to happen.

And in my opinion, is generally not acceptable as a definition within the lifestyle because generally ALL parties involved, be in two people in a bedroom, or people at a dungeon or play party, are all aware that something is going to happen.

So once again, it comes down to definition, and what things mean to the people involved.  Which will Always change, and there once again is, no one definition for most things anymore.



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