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Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 10:50:10 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?
Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
Do we make too much of consent?
Do we make too much of negotiations?
Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?
 
Oooo i'm all with the questions today lol. There is a reason behind this of course. I was thinking on the whole red flagging myself thing and it hit me that i just need to get up and get on and stop with all the self doubt shit.
So thats what i'm doing, i'm throwing myself right back into life, talking to people again, going to some events including BBB this weekend.
Then i thought maybe it was about time like red said i made a positive post / thread. However i knew there would be those out there who will say i am not ready to throw myself back into life yet, should take some time out etc etc.
Anyhow this led me to thinking about the complexities of rights and wrongs in bdsm compared to nilla. Which in turn led me to write this thread.
 

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 10:57:55 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.

Edited to correct vague pronoun reference

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 6/10/2008 11:02:30 AM >

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 10:58:04 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		I think that, speaking in a general sense, that many people don't have a full sense of moral security with the things they do on an internal level and this often gets projected outward into harsh judgments of other people and constant scrutiny of activities.

The surest way to convince yourself that what you are part of is "right" is to find other people, label what they are doing as "wrong", and then support yourself as being "righteous", because your not them and doing what they are doing. Right requires a wrong. Good requires an evil.

Edited to Add : For example...

"I'm not sick, because I don't piss on people like those guys."

"I'm not abusive, because I don't slap women like that guys does."

"I'm a healthy and caring dominant, because I don't crush submissives self esteem with punishments like I think that guy does."

You can reference Bobgkin's old posts to see this phenomena in action.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 6/10/2008 11:01:47 AM >

_____________________________

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The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:18:00 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Sometimes I think you are like me and never shut off your mind.

As applied to me-- When I was still trying to figure me out and when I first started internet dating I did a hell of alot of thinking an anylizing, with each relationship I fine tuned what I needed for a successful relationship more and I was more aware during screening processes of what I was looking for and how the person fit.  After a while I became bolder in talking about my quirks, my desires.  Sometimes I scared the hell out of people and they dissappeared, sometimes we had great on-line relationships but they never crossed into real time.  A couple of times they started in real time but they fizzled.  I think now it was because my needs to be submissive didn't mesh with my vocalness about what I needed in a partner.  At that time there were no conversations explicitly about concent, but there was a hell of alot of negotiation, though it was lacking that label.  And in that world, concent was though not asked for or talked about, very much in the forefront of any conversation that had to do with sexuality or long term relationship roles.

When I'd learned more about myself and stumbled onto places such as this I definately felt that I found my niche, but I was hesitant about what I was getting myself into and was thankful to learn about negotiations and conscent as they are practiced and relied upon them as a crutch until I felt comfortable enough to stand on my own.  During this phase of my evolution talks of conscent and negotiation kind of had an unbalanced priority in my thoughts.  I had my own version of kink and I wouldn't not deviate from what it was that I percieved I wanted.

As I evolved futher and became more comfortable with myself (and decided that I was OK and not some preverted freak) the issues negotiation and conscent with just living and experiencing became a bit more balanced.  However I can honestly say that it wasn't until the other half of the relationship because a known quantity and trust could also be factored in that I really felt that I could move forward naturally rather then over thinking and controlling the path that I was taking.

Sometimes I think that people use some of what you ask about as a safety net and it's a lack of self assuredy that keeps that net in place.  Othertimes I understand that the safety net is essential for the types of relationships the person wants to engage in and I'd never suggest that they loosen up and relax more.

I also think that the internet has changed people.  We've become far more of a word society then an action society so with words being our main medium for developing relationships, all relationships, regarless of their level of kink rely far more heavily on conscent, negotiation, on evaluating kink-- what makes the difference is that people here and in other BDSM sites have taken the time to define and name what it is that most everyone does naturally.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:26:03 AM   
awakenednj


Posts: 657
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think that, speaking in a general sense, that many people don't have a full sense of moral security with the things they do on an internal level and this often gets projected outward into harsh judgments of other people and constant scrutiny of activities.

The surest way to convince yourself that what you are part of is "right" is to find other people, label what they are doing as "wrong", and then support yourself as being "righteous", because your not them and doing what they are doing. Right requires a wrong. Good requires an evil.

Edited to Add : For example...

"I'm not sick, because I don't piss on people like those guys."

"I'm not abusive, because I don't slap women like that guys does."

"I'm a healthy and caring dominant, because I don't crush submissives self esteem with punishments like I think that guy does."

You can reference Bobgkin's old posts to see this phenomena in action.


Um.. isnt another reason we seek community of like minded people (even when we are feeling morally insecure about what we do) to watch and see how it works for others? something more along the lines of "that couple is doing this, and they dont seem broken... maybe I'm not broken"

This of course assumes that the other things you see about "that couple" support the idea that they found a healthy way for themselves...

I dunno. Just a thought.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:27:19 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		It has a lot with having the need to have some sort of justification because people like to know there is a reason behind something instead of just accepting it and moving forward.  So instead, people get stuck or repeat the same cycle.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:29:22 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		A profound disscussion. Am I in the right place?

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:30:23 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I think that some people tend to make too much out of many of the things you've mentioned because

1) it makes them feel special, thinking they are part of something special, that requires rules, protocols, risky behavior, etc.  Lifestyle = special = they are special
2) they are unable to live their life in its entirety, totally accepting who they are, so they need to have a special place where they can accept their deviancy, it's their way of embracing it (puffing out, talking about their x years in the lifestyle, etc)

I do not consider the complexities of my life in terms of vanilla or kink.  It's my life, in its entirety and I accept who I am and what it is I need, even if I sometimes can't completely define it.  Broad strokes, no little paint brush. 

And please, stop saying red flagging yourself because I always read it as red flogging yourself!     


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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:34:31 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

And please, stop saying red flagging yourself because I always read it as red flogging yourself!     



Whew, I am not alone

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to KatyLied)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 11:34:40 AM   
Strongmindbody


Posts: 264
Joined: 5/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Do we make too much of consent?
Do we make too much of negotiations?
Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?



I'm sure this has been said a billion times here, but I think it is important to recognize the different impacts of Kink vs. Fetish on a relationship. With BDSM, we need to exercise our dominant or submissive personalities (kink) and sometimes do so in very specific ways (fetish). All the back and forth is needed since the fetish stuff tends to get in the way if it isn't really compatible. Vanilla relationships don't deal with this: chemistry works or doesn't but the ongoing need to see you dressed like the easter bunny doesn't really factor in.

As for judgmental comments, cliques, us vs them, internecine warfare, what have you, that's just human. It may be magnified here because some push the vanilla boundaries a lot further than others, and some really do have ethical (and even moral) issues to work out. Honesty/integrity with others and with oneself is debated due to it's overwhelming importance and relative rarity. Same in vanilla, but the consequences aren't quite so in-your-face from the beginning. Oddly, on this board, some of the moralizing, judging, and whining can become part of better understanding.

I mean really, what did you expect here? The drama, insight, humor, friendships, and bitching make this board interesting. Without it, no one would be here. Judgment has its part to play...

quote:

May I recommend multiple orgasms.


That may be the best advice we ever get: humor and honesty and real life in one short sentence. You are talking about human relationships, and they are based on real connections. Over thinking can kill anything (like my post). Get out and live. And enjoy the ride!

(in reply to missturbation)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 12:40:30 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: awakenednj

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

I think that, speaking in a general sense, that many people don't have a full sense of moral security with the things they do on an internal level and this often gets projected outward into harsh judgments of other people and constant scrutiny of activities.

The surest way to convince yourself that what you are part of is "right" is to find other people, label what they are doing as "wrong", and then support yourself as being "righteous", because your not them and doing what they are doing. Right requires a wrong. Good requires an evil.

Edited to Add : For example...

"I'm not sick, because I don't piss on people like those guys."

"I'm not abusive, because I don't slap women like that guys does."

"I'm a healthy and caring dominant, because I don't crush submissives self esteem with punishments like I think that guy does."

You can reference Bobgkin's old posts to see this phenomena in action.


Um.. isnt another reason we seek community of like minded people (even when we are feeling morally insecure about what we do) to watch and see how it works for others? something more along the lines of "that couple is doing this, and they dont seem broken... maybe I'm not broken"

This of course assumes that the other things you see about "that couple" support the idea that they found a healthy way for themselves...

I dunno. Just a thought.


Sure, why not? However, the question posted was why people seem to be overly judgment and constantly scrutinize activities. I would probably give your answer if the question was "Why do people seek out like minded individuals?"

I can provide a whole host of examples from this message board that demonstrate my theory in practice.

A common one is the stereotype of the "Internet wanker vanilla guy who just uses the lifestyle to get sex."

Who are these guys? Where are they at? Do they post to this message board? Is there any individual references to support this?

For the sake of fairness, is there people out there who fit this stereotype and caricature? Sure, I have no doubts that they are.

However, in the context, that it's often used is an abstract entity created by the poster to assert that he is one of the "righteous" Dominants who don't simply wank off on the Internet and doesn't solely use the lifestyle to get sex.

People constantly negate anonymous people (as if somehow there was something logically "wrong" with wanking on the Internet or pursuing casual sex) or force an activity such as punishment into a specific set of parameters in order to create a caricature of how everyone uses punishment is always wrong or bad.

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to awakenednj)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 1:22:05 PM   
Deliena


Posts: 623
Joined: 6/16/2007
From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		To be fair, part of the reason we on the CM message boards obssess over relationship issues is because we actively participate in a message board about relationship issues.

Again - am I failing to see the complexity? LOL

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 1:33:46 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

There is a reason behind this of course. I was thinking on the whole red flagging myself thing and it hit me that i just need to get up and get on and stop with all the self doubt shit.


Oh gosh.  I'm so glad you've come around. 

A lot of times I get sucked into swirls of self-doubt and almost believe I'm the cause of all my problems, 'cause like, ya know, I'm the only constant.  It's an ego-centric cycle that's related magical thinking.  We feel out of control, and, in order to feel some sense of control, make an irrational grab for power based on an illusion; shoulder all the responsibility and end up letting everyone else off the hook in the mean time.

I'm like, bull shit on that.

Each of us may be the only constant in our lives, but none of us are the only variable.  And, its the variables that make a difference.

Good luck. :)




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“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 1:51:13 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Actually there are a number of topics that come up online here, that well frankly never were all the big of an issue in my past relationships.

The whole thread on consent came up, ok, a little bit of a mind bender for me personally.   However, mind you this all went down in a consentual relationship.

You can rip this apart over and over again.  The lifestyle relationship is consentual compared to somebody snagging an innocent victim.    It really is that basic of a concept.

At times there are things that get over thought to death.  Things that I myself never really thought much about before.  

A lot of things are made out to be more complex.


< Message edited by Owner4SexSlave -- 6/10/2008 1:53:15 PM >

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 2:14:15 PM   
pinkwind


Posts: 367
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		Don't take this the wrong way please, but i feel that sometimes people try to over think things, spend way too much time navel gazing rather than living life.

BDSM is just a handy umbrella label held over those who share a certain section within the spectrum of sexual proclivities and ways of interacting in meaningful relationships with others.

What we are doing is living life in much the same way as anyone else does, enjoying our particular interests as others do theirs. The problem is that some have invested this portion of the spectrum with more importance and depth than it really deserves, it just being another way of living life that a proportion of the population choose to follow, take pleasure in and feel fulfilled.

i wish that folks could just stop pulling things apart and stripping life down to the bone, putting WIITWD under the microscope all the time when it isn't either necessary nor productive to do so. Sure, we think about where we fit into the scheme of life, why we are what and who we are, and how our relationships endure or fail. But sometimes there is just too much emphasis on the whys and wherefores of every little thing, whilst life in all it's glory passes by unnoticed.

Me, i would rather not think about things, just do them. Life is for living, not taking apart to see what made it tick.



< Message edited by pinkwind -- 6/10/2008 2:15:40 PM >

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 3:11:39 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.

Edited to correct vague pronoun reference


Ah but afterwards i might start philosophising orgasms lol.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 3:15:39 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

You can reference Bobgkin's old posts to see this phenomena in action.


Omg i remember him.
I deffo see your point.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 3:19:54 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

And please, stop saying red flagging yourself because I always read it as red flogging yourself!     


Sorry lol i promise to not red flag myself again
Oops said it again.



_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 3:24:28 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline
quote:

Me, i would rather not think about things, just do them. Life is for living, not taking apart to see what made it tick.

 
I can see what you are saying here and in part agree. However usually not stopping to think before acting has landed me in hot hot water.



_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to pinkwind)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 3:59:17 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I think most people go through this stage when they hit their middle aged years.  I think the world would be better if we trained people to do it in their teens and 20s, but such is life. 

The fact is we're taught what we know naturally as a matter of course as we age.  It is only when we become independent and mature and secure enough that we gain the luxury of questioning.  Then we find what REALLY works and not only do we tend to make it "different" (because it is for you), but then we open the floodgates for all the questions.

Which again is why I won't be told I'm really wise for my age at 40, because everyone will have finally caught up to the cool ideas and questions.

Are many people over analytical?  Yes, especially control freak perfectionists like many s-types tend to be.  But I doubt it has anything to do with kink or the kink culture.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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