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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 4:33:34 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.

Edited to correct vague pronoun reference


Ah but afterwards i might start philosophising orgasms lol.


Well then, that's what ball gags are for

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 4:41:07 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		My mind has become rather more open to a few things over the last year or year and a half from using this message board.

In all honestly, a BDSM lifestyle or any relationship has some form of element of consent, acceptence, communication and mutual understand of the way things work.

I posted a thread on "engaging in force sex, during a middle of an agrument".  It was a question on my mind that bothered me.  The desire was expressed to me in two of my previous long term relationships.   Trust, I was very closed minded to doing this.  Basically, it was something that was "my own limit".  I knew without question that "the consent" was there for this.   I had my own mental moral codes that was standing in the way.

Now, if I had engaged in this would it have made me a bad guy?  Did it make me a bad guy for not fullfilling thier burning desired?  Rather subjective in POV.   OK, if I had engaged in "forced sex during an argument" it would have been something that would have been clearly a mutual understood and acceptable dynamic to those relationships.   They only thing that prevent it from happening was me.

I've become a little more open minded regarding a few things I found morally questionable in the past.  Basically, I'm working with a baseline of possibilities and probabilities.  In all honestly, I don't know exactly how the dynamics will flush out in the end with my next relationship.

I do think the things that I'm capable of doing has somewhat expanded.

In all honestly, Nearly anybody I know that has been involved in the lifestyle tends to grow, their limits lessen, they slowly but surely find themselves doing more extreme things.   Some of the activities I got into were just a natural evolution or progression of things along the way.   I tend to believe everybody tends to kick it up a notch after awhile.

I tend to think that things such as SSC and RACK apply MORE to people who are not in long term deep committed D/s relationship.  It's gearred towards causual play relationships and Newbies.   That these concepts give somewhat of a general foundation to work off from and grow from.   In time with more experience one starts to truely understand the short comings and down falls of SSC and RACK.   However, at best there is a General Message of not getting to carried away with one another to the point you really fuck somebody or get fucked up yourself.    Basicall SSC and RACK, is just a reminder to Beware and Becareful and take a minute to think about WTF you are doing.  That's it really.

At the end of the day, it's what two people in the relationship come to terms about.

It's up to you to figure out what you consider is Safe, Sane and Consentual.  You and who you are involved with have to be of similar mindset on this two.   Screw what everybody views is Safe and Sane at times.   There are a few things that should be a no brainer.  Such as getting fucked with Barbwire, having body parts removed and such. 

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 4:53:33 PM   
lally3


Posts: 595
Joined: 3/4/2008
Status: offline 		Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
 
i used to, when i was trying to learn as much as i could and felt a tad confused about it all.  now i realise that  this is me, my life and i handle it in a way that is safe and happy for me.  it now makes no difference whether it is a D/s relationship or a vanilla one, the basic truth remains - whatever works for my master and i needs no analyzing.

having said that its fun to share and these places are good because they are a place of initiation, support and earned wisdom on a lifestyle that can be confusing to the newbie.
 
 

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 4:55:10 PM   
baddog123


Posts: 32
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline 		Lets all just remember not to OVER think, as it seems to get a lot of us in trouble also... (me)       Sometimes simple things should not be over analyzed.


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 4:56:51 PM   
agoodgirl4Daddy


Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline 		I dunno....
 
I like to keep things simple (as much as possible, being a perfectionistic s-type who can overanalyze a fart), and I truly believe that it all boils down to RESPECT.  Respecting others and respecting myself...feeling respected. 
 
R
E
S
P
E
C
T
 
Aretha Franklin sure had something there.....
 
I respect myself and others when i am truthful, compassionate, congruent, and teachable.

_____________________________

~We do not see things as they are - we see them as we are.~ Anais Nin

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 5:11:33 PM   
chickpea


Posts: 446
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Los Angeles Area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Me, i would rather not think about things, just do them. Life is for living, not taking apart to see what made it tick.

 
I can see what you are saying here and in part agree. However usually not stopping to think before acting has landed me in hot hot water.




For me, I totally overanalyze on the internet and forums, you get to discuss ideas with a wider range of people.  In real life, I just do and it's all just intuitive.  Come to think of it, thinking about things 'til your comfortable with all the options, will allow you to do more off the internet because you've already hashed them around in your head before hand.   Like studying before, taking a test.

BDSM is more like Evil Knievel's stunts to jump over 10 Trucks.  You gotta do research, make refinements, before actually doing such a stunt.  The stakes are higher in a BDSM relationship, and I made a mistake of just jumping into one, crashing and burning. Lol  So thinking about things before hand, can be good.  Just gather up all the ideas, shake it around, and see what sticks and stays...  preparation here or with your Master, and when push comes to shove start out small and then work to bigger and badder.   

I can't stand watching people get sewn up with needle and thread, and might bash it here on the forums.  But doesn't mean it's not good for someone else, and wrong for posting I hate needles on a forum where someone might like it.  Just pick and choose whatever the hell you think is awesome and go for it. 

In Vanilla, there's more room for error, like no big deal if you didn't rent the right DVD, just wait 'til next week. 

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 5:52:21 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.



shit!! It only takes one for me to lose interest in philosophical questions... I wonder is that just me or it that like most men? 

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 5:56:16 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.

Edited to correct vague pronoun reference


Ah but afterwards i might start philosophising orgasms lol.


Well then, that's what ball gags are for


No amount of time with a ball gag in will ever stop me questioning things.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 5:57:17 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

May I recommend multiple orgasms.  After about 15, most women I've played with lose interest in philosophical questions... and just about anything else.



shit!! It only takes one for me to lose interest in philosophical questions... I wonder is that just me or it that like most men? 


Funny.............. nearly!

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 9:41:40 PM   
oblige


Posts: 38
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Being somewhat newly relaized submissive, I have done my share of mindfucking (that's what a freind of mine calls it when I do it) these assorted questions in the past year. I am too busy mostly doing life to post here or over-think much, thank goodness.

It does seem  many do get caught up in "right /wrong" ways of doing WIITWD, perhaps because  it is for some of us newer terrain, and because it is a bit different due to more negotiations and the whole consent thing. I got caught up and took a whole year just to study and introspect after I decided I am indeed submisve, (yeh, I  just tripped over this fact at age 46, hehe.) 

The forums are afterall for the purpose of "discussion." --So we discuss, ad nauseum sometimes. I appreciate the good advice and learning from other's mistakes and successes here, and I laugh a lot at some of the threads and drama here too-- great entertainment value for sure.

Since re-opening my profile here recently I have been to a few events, met a couple Doms, and am about to embark on a D/s relationship with one. We are going to do a long distance (not too long, only an hour)  D/s relationship,  for 90 days and then evaluate the experience and go from there. I figure this will give me a  sense of what a  D/s relationship is (since I have never expereinced one officially defined as such)  All I know is, I have a desire to submit and he has a desire to Dominate., and we are very compatible in many facets of life.

I do not know what happened to you to cause you to stop being " into life, talking to people again, going to some events,"  but kudos to you for hopping back into it. To me, life is to be lived and participated in. Introspection and philosophizing are always good, but there is a balance for sure.   Be well, ~oblige


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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/10/2008 9:46:17 PM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?
Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
Do we make too much of consent?
Do we make too much of negotiations?
Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?
 
Oooo i'm all with the questions today lol. There is a reason behind this of course. I was thinking on the whole red flagging myself thing and it hit me that i just need to get up and get on and stop with all the self doubt shit.
So thats what i'm doing, i'm throwing myself right back into life, talking to people again, going to some events including BBB this weekend.
Then i thought maybe it was about time like red said i made a positive post / thread. However i knew there would be those out there who will say i am not ready to throw myself back into life yet, should take some time out etc etc.
Anyhow this led me to thinking about the complexities of rights and wrongs in bdsm compared to nilla. Which in turn led me to write this thread.
 


Like all generalisations, this one holds no water if Y/you attempt to apply it to a particular P/person or rely on it to guide Y/your conduct.
 
Congrats on feeling more positive -- i hope you enjoy yourself.
 
pinksugarsub

_____________________________





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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 3:06:02 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?
Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
Do we make too much of consent?
Do we make too much of negotiations?
Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?


Are we on the same site? I swear, I've seen people obsess about the dumbest things here, as if all common sense suddenly vanished the moment they realized they either liked having a good ass whipping or liked giving one.

The simplest philosophies are usually the best. Figure out what you like, what holds value for you and pursue it. Quit worrying about what everyone else thinks and quit trying to demonstrate that you're not nilla. People who get so deep into shit they have to define life for everyone else irritate me regardless of whether it's your local TV evangelist or Sir Whips-A-Lot with 98 years of experience.

Nothing turns me away faster than a woman with a suitcase full of acronyms and a head that can't wrap around the fact that she has to try and figure out if orgasm #43 of the day fit into the bdsm file or the nilla file. And that, I think is what defines your post. It's not so much based upon relationships as it is attempting to wrap some defininition around the community, when in reality, the internal workings of relationships should always come before the community. Then again, I don't run out in public settings and jump into play with people I don't know - sort of the same way I don't do a whole lot of things in life with people I don't know.

Shrug.

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 4:11:32 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world? No I don't think it's you. sometimes there does seem to be complexities and these are to do with protocol, contracts, rather than what happens in the dynamics of the relationship itself. But then that's the same for ANY activity. hHll, the endless meetings i have attended which simply tread water at my place of employment, going over the same issues to do with protocols, terms of employment, jobe description, what he said what I said he said and so on.

Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day? I don't think the nilla world is anywhere near as plain as day. How come breakdown of relationship, divorces sare till happening? However I do think that bdsm relationship xarry their own burdens AS WELL AS THE NILLA WITHIN. I think whenever I have attempted to simply do bdsm without a nilla type relationship underlying that works also then ity simply doesn't work for me. If we would be incompatable for examplee as a couple goping out to dinner or sharing possibilities for a future then it wouldn't work. I don't just play for example.
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?

Do we make too much of consent? Yes and no. As I statesd on the recent consent forum it is the only bilateral element of bdsm and therefore it could be questionable as to the possibility of consent. But without stating what one will not consent to (as limits) then problems are simply bound to arise.

Do we make too much of negotiations? I don't. But partners have, particularly with regard to my role in procurement. That's just from my personal experience though.

Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink? No. Not enough sometimes in my experience. When I look back it is always the 'that's not my kink' which has been the deal breaker.

There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case? Yes I think there is a finer line in bdsm because this is decided between the players and it really comesdown to personal likes and dislikes. It also comes down to either personal fit and reciprocity In nilla relationship but the guidelines are socially sanctioned, creed sanctioned and culturally sanctioned according to a wider culture. Many are prepared to follow the culturally sanctioned practices despite their personal feelings (arranged marriage is an example of this).

There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true? It's true here on the forums. That's because we put ourselves up to be judged and give as good as we get.

Oooo i'm all with the questions today lol. There is a reason behind this of course. I was thinking on the whole red flagging myself thing and it hit me that i just need to get up and get on and stop with all the self doubt shit. Shit happens as they say and then we get up and wipe it off and start agian until the next shit happens. Anyone who doesn't have shit my advice is: look out.

Very happy you are up and at it again. have a great week and week end hon. Vive l'orgasm I say.......and all the philosophy and self-doubt seems to vanish in an instant.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/11/2008 4:13:34 AM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 4:47:45 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?
Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
Do we make too much of consent?
Do we make too much of negotiations?
Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?
 
Oooo i'm all with the questions today lol. There is a reason behind this of course. I was thinking on the whole red flagging myself thing and it hit me that i just need to get up and get on and stop with all the self doubt shit.
So thats what i'm doing, i'm throwing myself right back into life, talking to people again, going to some events including BBB this weekend.
Then i thought maybe it was about time like red said i made a positive post / thread. However i knew there would be those out there who will say i am not ready to throw myself back into life yet, should take some time out etc etc.
Anyhow this led me to thinking about the complexities of rights and wrongs in bdsm compared to nilla. Which in turn led me to write this thread.
 


I have ignored pretty much everything after the first post.  Will go back and read later.

1.  Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?
Hell yes!  And this provides endless hours of entertainment on a boring Florida night.
2. Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?
No.  We overanalyze situations that the ''nilla' world underanalyzes.  It's only OVERanalyzing if nothing useful comes out of it for you personally and society as a whole.  Chew on that, then tell me what's over and what's under.
3. If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
No.  It's because 'we' are paying more attention to the relationship.  All relationships are equally complex.  How much of that complexity we actively attend to is what changes btn. vector pairs. 
4. 5.6.78AAAAHHHI'm done.  The rest of these questions are from my perspective repeating the same melody with timbre shifts that don't add useful distinction.

Last note: If you're running in mental circles over this then try the alternative, see if it's not even harder without the 'artificial' (meh) boundaries of M/s. As for S&M, how is it different than hard training for sports or martial arts or the military, with a VERY dedicated and attentive coach/trainee?  Edge is edge.  Just cause the cliff is made from limestone instead of basalt doesn't mean the view isn't exhilarating... or that a fall could hurt you very very badly.

Party ON peeps.  Seriously get out of your holes and DO IT.  Peace.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 6:02:16 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl


Each of us may be the only constant in our lives, but none of us are the only variable.


Spot bollock on to the above statement. I've jut made that my saying of the month.....do you charge royalties?




< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/11/2008 6:05:16 AM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 5:13:23 PM   
wanderingstray


Posts: 26
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Is it just me or does the complexity of what is right and what is wrong seem magnified in the bdsm world?


My impression is that BDSM appeals to people who get something out of rules, and who tend to be serious about things. Maybe the common traits are humorlessness and rigidity. Like, who else would even CARE about power in relationships, or want/need a rigid structure of roles and relationships, unless for some reason it mattered to do things right not wrong? Maybe religion is the primary culture, and this is a counter-culture. The sexual repression versus sexual freedom thing explains some of it, but morality is most of it. When you grow up hearing sex is bad, then when you becomes sexual, guilt applies, and so here is a way to answer all that.

There is power struggling built into sexual relationships because  it involves an instinctual drive that cares little for our ideas about it. We are easily in conflict with ourselves and our partners. Cultures usually exist to allow people a way to socialize. If the ostensible culture doesn't meet people's needs, they will develop a counter-culture to take care of things. There would be some transition from above ground to underground, including redefinition, adopting the new ideas, exploring the new emotions, that is, stepping into the world where you have to find your way and define yourself in the new terms.

People tend to carry along parental habits when they play at morality. The dominant one is the parent, the submissive is the child. As with parent/child relationships, there are rules and consequences for one applied by the other.

Parent/child
God/man
Teacher/student
Dominant/submissive
Right/wrong

Maybe the structure of religion is kept but some of its repressive tenets are replaced with permissive ones. And then to make it all seem, ahem, serious, people puff up their chests and try to sound authoritative, to keep from feeling silly wearing the outfits. It probably brings about a state of mind that hearkens back to the childhood sense of awe from being surrounded by robed men chanting in Latin, at mass, or something.




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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 6:01:30 PM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Do we tend to over analyse situations that in the nilla world would be plain as day?


It has been my experience that most vanilla couples do very little analyzing about their roles in a relationship. I think this is rather related to the 50% plus divorce rate in the U.S.

quote:

There seems to be much more judgement of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?


You gotta be kidding. Single vanilla women are constantly bemoaning that there are no "good" men left. Vanilla men are just as bad. There seems to be waaay more judging of choices in the vanilla world. But then, most couples don't take the time to set the ground rules of their relationship in the first place, and then are shocked when the unwritten rules are broken.

I could go on. The important thing, whether it bdsm or vanilla, is that magic word "communication". I think both lifestyles are very complicated in their own individual ways. The ones that succeed do so because they keep talking to each other, and they never take the relationship for granted.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 6:59:26 PM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		If we do is it because it really is much more complex than a nilla relationship?
NO
 
Do we make too much of consent?
Some downplay it and others make it almost into a religion. The truth is, we try and justify the fact we like to beat or be beaten (and all the other variations). We try and justify as reasonable, actions that are illegal and considered immoral my most of the world.

Do we make too much of negotiations?
See above.

Do we make too much of your kink is not my kink?
There are some who would say anything is fine, others who only believe in one "twue" way. We are humans with all the foible and faults.

After all these are all things that go on in nilla relationships but just never seem to be as much of a big deal to them as they are to us!
There seems to be a much finer line between what is right and what is wrong in the bdsm life than there is in nilla but is that really the case?
NO
 
There seems to be much more judgment of activities, choices in the bdsm lifestyle than of nilla. Why? Is it even true?
Because we all want to be normal and right, so that has to make the others wrong.
 
The above is just my beliefs. I think we all try too hard to justify what society looks down on. We want to avoid responsibility for our actions and make it easier to justify them. It's not a holy path. I'm hoping more for a mutual satisfaction of deep needs and wants.
 


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I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 8:04:34 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		hmmm well maybe that's what attracted me to the lifestyle then. I like to analyze things. I don't actually do them. I just analyze them.

Seriously though, maybe we do tend to over-analyze things, but lifestyle people (in general) are very cerebral in the first place. So I guess it's to be expected.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Right and wrong answers - 6/11/2008 9:17:06 PM   
virgini970


Posts: 142
Joined: 5/28/2008
Status: offline 		only you know your self  and yes you have to et back to life

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Profile   Post #: 40
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