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The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:06:34 PM

DominantJenny

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This is something I've always struggled with...I already know there's no truly good answer, but, hey, it's a topic for discussion.
Pain is subjective...what is harsh to one person is light to another, etc.
So how do we, short of actually engaging in the act, come to even an appropriate approximation of pain tolerated/doled out by an individual? 'Cause I know it would really suck for me to get to the point where I was ready to scene with someone (those who do casual play have an advantage here, obviously), only to discover a vast disagreement between what I dole out and what s/he can take.
In the end, I suspect it's just a risk we have to take, but what do you think?

Post #: 1

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:15:36 PM

azropedntied

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From: Phx AZ
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The only answer i have is through communication , asking what they can or have taken as a pain level in the past .If for example they state i can take anything you can dish out then whine and cry that your hurting them was it not the others miscommunication ?Also the ability to read the body of the one in front of you that your working on is a great ability to have , i have seen some not have it and the bottom pays for that lacking skill .Knowing how or even if to ramp up and slow down and speed up or intensify again reading the body and knowing if you even should .
Know the play partner is alway a huge plus VS a casual exchange .

(in reply to DominantJenny)

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:19:07 PM

camille65

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Maybe it isn't so much the subjectivity of pain but instead perhaps it is the subjectivity of the pain giver. I think pain is less subjective than giving pain. There is a standard pain scale used in the medical community, it is very basic but it exists. I've yet to see any sort of standard that can be applied to the other end, that of the person giving the pain.Wouldn't that be determined by untold amounts of variation?From the amount of muscle used, the places struck etc.

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:25:27 PM

DominantJenny

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Of course, where someone places something on the painscale is subjective...two people might have the same bone broken in the same way and yet one says they are in a 6 and the other says 8. Still, it's at least a starting point, where, as you say, we can't even begin to assess how much pain someone gives out, there are so many variables.

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:27:18 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

In the end, I suspect it's just a risk we have to take, but what do you think?

I've never had a problem with it. A bit of discussion beforehand about the sorts of things you enjoy doing and the sorts of things they've experienced and how they reacted goes a long way.

If I say "I wanna whip the hide of someone, I mean split the skin til blood is running in streams down her back!" an she says "Ummm... I've only ever been lightly flogged with a suede flogger and that seemed pretty intense to me." Then Houston... we have a problem.

But if I say "I like to do an occasional flogging or whipping, the intensity doesn't so much matter to me as the intensity of her reaction." And she says, "I'm not really a pain slut, but I can take it for a little while... and it tends to make me cry." Then we just might have a connection.

Simple

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:28:01 PM

DominantJenny

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*nod* I'm not talking about so much having the scene go awry in that way...as you say, communication once you are in a scene can allow for adjustments and such at the time, but the overall problem of incompatibility would still exist. That's what I mean about trying to figure it out before you get that far.
Talking about what you've taken/given in terms of "toy X, amount Y" can give only a minor indication, as far as I can see.

(in reply to azropedntied)

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:29:40 PM

gypsygrl

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It is a risk.

I worry about it all the time especially since my tolerance for pain varies from context to context and even day to day in the same context. I'm pretty cooperative so if someone wants me to talk about it before hand, I will but I don't think for a moment that I'm going to be able to tell them with any degree of specificity how hard to hit me in order to get a desired response.

If I've never played with someone before, I talk all through the first couple sessions and give constant feed back and don't hesitate to do that awful thing called topping from the bottom. I figure it takes a while to get to know someone's characteristic reactions, and early on its about learning. And, hopefully, they wont come at me like a raped ape and bring me to my proverbial knees with the first blow. But, its still a risk. The best we can do is minimize it.

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:32:39 PM

DominantJenny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

In the end, I suspect it's just a risk we have to take, but what do you think?

I've never had a problem with it. A bit of discussion beforehand about the sorts of things you enjoy doing and the sorts of things they've experienced and how they reacted goes a long way.

If I say "I wanna whip the hide of someone, I mean split the skin til blood is running in streams down her back!" an she says "Ummm... I've only ever been lightly flogged with a suede flogger and that seemed pretty intense to me." Then Houston... we have a problem.

But if I say "I like to do an occasional flogging or whipping, the intensity doesn't so much matter to me as the intensity of her reaction." And she says, "I'm not really a pain slut, but I can take it for a little while... and it tends to make me cry." Then we just might have a connection.

Simple

*nod* But what about when the differences aren't so clear cut? I might say I'm very into giving pain ('cause I am, actually), and she might say she's a painslut, but it turns out when we scene that her definition and mine were off by a dramatic degree...

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Post #: 8

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:35:17 PM

DominantJenny

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I think you're probably right, but it's damned frustrating.
Even giving descriptions of activities...well, my boy complains that X toy is very harsh, but turns out the new girl thinks it's hardly anything at all. (It probably makes it harder that I don't use leather, which is, of course, a baseline for most people.)

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 9

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:36:36 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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I think the medical pain scale is rather subjective as well.
I totally agree with what was posted on that.

At one time I had an understanding of my own personal 1-10 pain scale.
However, I went through some experiences where I felt pain that went off
my own 1-10 scale. Very intense pain, to the point it literally felt like I took
a shot gun blast inside my chest. Instant, it was like taking a 15 when I only
knew 1-10. Actually people around me in the ER were very suprised at
how well I dealt with it too.

Anyways, it totally redefined my personal pain scale and limits.

Generally speaking I have done and do do things to myself, to get a
general idea to the pain, sensation, the amount of force and pressure,
whatever involved in what I'm doing. This is measured against my
own pain scale.

The tricky part, is applying it somebody elses pain scale. At times, if
in doubt to somebody ability to take pain, you simply take things slowly.

If it's somebody experienced at recieving pain, I listen to their stories and
previous experiences. Use these things as a Guage to work off from.
If somebody expresses they can take a high level and amounts of pain,
and that most Doms/tops hold back on them a lot. This tells me that
well. I don't have to go too easy on them. Still there's the whole idea
of warming somebody first, or the sadistic cold start.

I think communication before hand, during and afterwards is import.
Gives you a general idea as to what they can take before hand, during
and how well things went over afterwards. Gives you a better idea
for the next time you engage in activitity with them again.

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 10

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:45:05 PM

lusciouslips19

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Being a woman my levels of pain tolerance can vacilate immensely. Sometimes I can be a painslut but other times I am hypersensitive. This does go along with PMS symtome. When I have it, I cant tolerate the same levels of pain I did the week before.

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:55:31 PM

azropedntied

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Not only can pain levels be subjective from one person to the next on any one part or more of the body , but what about conditioning , does that not also play a part ?I know if i had not had any attention in a long while i just can not seem to take as much as i used to .Yet after a lil while i may surpass where i was before by leaps and bounds .
Its like i saw at a play party get together , this one male was being beat , from what i saw it was way under even a warm up yet he was screaming so loud you would have thought she was pulling his fingernails out .Yet that is /was is level .
Owner 4> I know what you mean about the scale s and personal level , the ER or post OP is a great view of just that .

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 12

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 12:58:38 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

It is a risk.

I worry about it all the time especially since my tolerance for pain varies from context to context and even day to day in the same context. I'm pretty cooperative so if someone wants me to talk about it before hand, I will but I don't think for a moment that I'm going to be able to tell them with any degree of specificity how hard to hit me in order to get a desired response.

If I've never played with someone before, I talk all through the first couple sessions and give constant feed back and don't hesitate to do that awful thing called topping from the bottom. I figure it takes a while to get to know someone's characteristic reactions, and early on its about learning. And, hopefully, they wont come at me like a raped ape and bring me to my proverbial knees with the first blow. But, its still a risk. The best we can do is minimize it.

What you top from the bottom! LOL.. I'm just teasing you. I think that's all part of the communcation process in getting to know somebody. Some people don't realize that it takes time and trust to make things work, they get a little too caught up in their labels for their own good.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

Post #: 13

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 1:30:11 PM

softness

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ok this is something very "on-topic" for me the last few months ... sorry apologies in advance if this rambles.

Not only is pain a hugely subjective experience, but also understandings on terms like pain slut vary massively according to context. Someone may be a painslut (ie get arroused by the physical sensations of pain) but actually be only able to take a very low level of pain. Someone may actually be able to withstand a very heavy degree of pain and high impact play, but never get any physical arrousal from it at all (perhaps its the helplessness that gets them hot, or perhaps there is no arrousal at all).

My very first exposure to real life BDSM was a club at the age of 17 (god bless fake ID) and what I saw was HEAVY pain play, and the first people I mixed with in the scene were very heavy pain players by anyones' standard, they were not D/s .. just there for the sensation kicks. That initial exposure has set the benchmark for me of what is "heavy" pain .. when I think pain slut .. I think of the girls I saw back then. I have always matched myself against that standard, not seeing it as normal or something to aim for, but that is what I regard as heavy play.

Recently I have started playing in public, with friends and friends of friends, and have already gotten a reputation as a "hardcore pain slut" .. and as having pretty "extreme" pain threshold .. now to the people who play in public locally to me, and the local scene in general perhaps that is true ... but I would NEVER describe myself in those terms. I think it is hyseterical people think this of me ... I mean really .. you should see how many nurses have to hold me into the dentists chair! I think that what I can take is fairly light, I am terrified of heavy pain play, and break out in a cold sweat (not in the fun way) at the thought of being tortured with pain. Not unluckily for me .. it seems I have fallen into the clutches of someone who really is into pain play .. like really .. and so pain is something I am going to have to learn to like or to lump. Unless of course, the people I play with are right, and I am actually a hardcore painslut hungriily searching out her next fix ... but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I would hate to be in a relationship where my desires and enjoyment from play was a total mismatch to my Owners .. if the majority of what one of you enjoyed .. the other disliked .. even with all the submissive devotion in the world, I would not be a happy or contented girl. I mean look at it this way, if a lifestyle sex slave can't get her rocks off .. then really .. what is the point! Now there is a level of suffering I would gladly and lovingly endure to please my Owner and give him satisfaction, but if that was the only play we ever shared, or if that level was constantly pushed beyond what I could process and move on from (which is different from what you can "take", its about what I could let go of afterwards and not let turn into resentment) then very quickly my desire to serve and love that Man would be eroded by unhappiness.

in answer to the OP ... the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Within a few days of writing this post I will find out whether the huge investment of time, emotion, money and energy that Sir and I made in our relationship is going to pay out big time .. or fizzle and die in a wet squib of incompatibility.

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to DominantJenny)

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 1:34:56 PM

Roselaure

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It's a risk, and there's no real way to know ahead of time. Not only does my pain tolerance vary depending on my hormonal levels, as does my reaction to it (stoicism or tears), where on my body it's being inflicted, what kind of pain it is, but also who's doling it out. There are just too many variables to mitigate all the risk.

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Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
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Post #: 15

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 2:12:22 PM

hizgeorgiapeach

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Jenny, I think it can often be more of a problem for the 'casual' scener than you realize. I don't have "a" regular playpartner, so to speak. I do, however, have several people that I play with at every mutual opportunity. With some of those sadists, the opportunity comes around a lot more frequently than with others, and therefore they have a much greater chance of learning my reactions to any given Type of play. I like to play Rough according to most of the people that I play with - but in the view of one of the sadists I play with regularly, I'm still "a lightweight, and sometimes an outright wuss." And he's the one whom I have the Least problem with aiming at areas that I've already told him are off limits, or staynig in a single area too long. Personally, I consider myself extreme in comparison to the majority, but by no means seriously hardcore.

Softness, I'm very definately one of those "there for the sensation kicks" types that you mentioned. Cause that's what it is for me - all about the levels of sensation. Beat me til I'm black and blue from the top of my shoulderblades down to the bottom of my buttcheeks - oooooh yeah, definately down with that! Chained to the Andrews, blindfolded, flogged and cropped til I almost bleed, with my genitals clamped multiple times, hot wax dripped all over to be whipped off prior to being rubbed down wih chinchilla fur- yep, I'm there with bells on! Power exchange -attemmpt to "direct" me or order me around - and I'll laugh in your face. Sexuality? Yes, it's all very sexual for me - the more pain of certain types it inflicts, the wetter I get, and once I come offa da cross I'm heading straight for the swingers' area! If it weren't wrapped up in my sexuality, I probably wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much as I do, and therefore I wouldn't be likely to play at All.

Rose makes some very good points about how things can vary for those of us who are masochists - even Extreme masochists - on any given day and for a variety of reasons. My pain tolerance Does vary from day to day depending on things ranging from hormone (not whore moan)levels, to what toys are in use and what body part is being aimed at. My preferences during play take things like that into account - thuddy toys being prefered over stingy toys, leather being Much prefered over plastics or nylons etc, shoulderblade & mid/low back in preference to ass cheeks while the thighs are strictly off limits, etc. Flog my pussy til your arm drops off, but if you think yer gonna do breast torture, prepare to get a black eye in return.

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Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 3:10:05 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

This is something I've always struggled with...I already know there's no truly good answer, but, hey, it's a topic for discussion.
Pain is subjective...what is harsh to one person is light to another, etc.
So how do we, short of actually engaging in the act, come to even an appropriate approximation of pain tolerated/doled out by an individual? 'Cause I know it would really suck for me to get to the point where I was ready to scene with someone (those who do casual play have an advantage here, obviously), only to discover a vast disagreement between what I dole out and what s/he can take.
In the end, I suspect it's just a risk we have to take, but what do you think?

Pain is subjective on BOTH sides of the dynamic.
I am submissive/slave. for myself I know the difference between the two by the way...(so even that is subkective). My point veing that I have limits even when I believe O have no limits....hell not explaining this very well at all. I have subjective limits is what I mean and it's no good me saying I have no limits in an objectyive way and in a way that preceeds what i will do in a scene. Some days my limits are physically high and sometimes my tolerance of pain is low. It depends on many things.
But a dom(mme)'s experience is also subjective is it not? That subjectivity doesn't go away just because the dopm is weilding ann objective piece of equipmet. I understand domination as much as I do submission: at least I belive I do...because I take the dominant position with other female subs/slaves when I play with more than one. Some times i feel an urgency, sometimes I feel tenderness, sometimes I feel playful, sometimes extraverted as a dominant player with women. fo rme there is indeed a subjectivity, an empathy between two women that is not present in the connection between me as a submissive and a male dominant. It has a great deal to do with the same-onsame quality of bisexuality as opposed to the opposite quality of heterosexuality. In my experience it has been rare to find a man who has the same degree of understanding of the subjectivity of my pain when receiving it as a woman does of my giving of it.

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 3:34:06 PM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantJenny

*nod* But what about when the differences aren't so clear cut? I might say I'm very into giving pain ('cause I am, actually), and she might say she's a painslut, but it turns out when we scene that her definition and mine were off by a dramatic degree...

Yes... but in saying that, you haven't really said anything concrete. That's why you need to discuss specific activities, specific examples. I can tell someone that I'm somewhat sadistic... sometimes... which is true... but what does that mean? Odds are you don't know and neither does anyone else reading this who doesn't know me personally. But, if I say that I like to give bare bottom spankings with my hand several times a week and that maybe about once a week I like doing something more intense such as using a crop on her pussy until she is crying.... that's much more specific, that people can relate to well enough to say "I'd probably be into that" or "I don't think I'd like that". But note the difference, I moved from using largely subjective terms to using more concrete example... specifics.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 3:45:15 PM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

*nod* But what about when the differences aren't so clear cut? I might say I'm very into giving pain ('cause I am, actually), and she might say she's a painslut, but it turns out when we scene that her definition and mine were off by a dramatic degree...

This happened to me once. I told a Dominant I was a painslut. I had been called that by one dom and really, he was the first I had any real hardcore BDSM. So when I went to play with the Dominant at a club and told him I was a painslut, he gave it good. I was thinking,"what the hell have I got myself into?" But I kept going and didnt call any safe words. I just focused on grinning and baring it. I did feel I had something to prove. As a sub thats where my power lies, in being tough. But it ceased to be sexually stimulating. It could have been due to it being my first time in public(I'm used to private play), or the fact that he didnt really float my boat sexually or due to the fact that all my focus was going to overcoming the pain and I became nonverbal so I coudnt even say a safe word even had I wanted to.
I am not saying I didnt get any satisfaction from the experience. It was just different.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to DominantJenny)

Post #: 19

RE: The subjectivity of pain. - 5/19/2008 4:02:43 PM

kiwisub12

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I have seen people scream from pain from a blood pressure cuff going up.
i have also seen a sub get a beating such that all the other subs in the room were cringing.
most of us are inbetween.

If you can talk to the intended victim- um, i mean volunteer - you could say you like to raise whelts with a cane, and if the volunteer runs screaming you know that you aren't going to be compatable. Maybe you can ask what a typical scene for your volunteer would be, and how much lasting marking there is. That way you at least get an idea of how hard and how long they are used to going for.

(assumes a pious position) Its all about communication!!!!

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 20

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