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calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 3:05:14 PM

LadyEllen

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1)a)How do we each as nations get out of these pan-national trading agreements (NAFTA, EU etc)?
b)What are the likely effects of this - on ordinary people?

2)a)How do we each as nations control and limit the global economy?
b)What are the likely effects of this - on ordinary people?

3)a)How do we each as nations return to being sovereign trading nations - ie supplying our own needs from our own resources, importing a little, exporting excess supply?
b)What are the likely effects of this - on ordinary people?

E

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Post #: 1

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 3:17:57 PM

Rule

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1a We don't
2a We cannot
3a It is impossible

The purpose of the ruling class this past century has been one world government with one currency, so that global power may be accumulated. Any obstacle to this course is obliterated.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 2

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 3:20:45 PM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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So Rule, are you saying that in effect we are already all the slaves of Global Inc and may not do anything but thank our masters for being allowed to eat this day and for reducing the number of beatings?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 3

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 3:21:26 PM

Zensee

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1) We don't. We make sure these agreements are fair and provide wise, compassionate, long range guidance for shared economic cooperation. We make sure that adjudication and enforcement mechanisms are fair and effective.

2) Tie the value of a national currency to a natural resource rather than a rare precious metal. This gives a boost to developing and third world countries, who are resource rich and development poor, and it encourages the protection of the resource. It also means we can stop destroying wilderness and poisoning watersheds with mercury extracting more gold to pile in vaults where we can pretend it keeps our currency safe.

3) See #1 and #2 above to start. With more equitable and responsible trade arrangements imported, basics would become more expensive, encouraging local production at the same time allowing more resources to remain in the exporting nation. (Cash crops, for example; common luxury foods, often exported from countries where agriculture feeds the exotic tastes of the well to do in foreign countries, at the expense of basic food production for the locals.)

Z.

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Post #: 4

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 3:50:05 PM

Rule

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unemployed
labourers
peasants
citizens
merchants
scientists
clergy (exterminated)
repressive force (police & military)
Nobility

Try to beat them at their own game.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 5

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/14/2008 4:12:31 PM

seeksfemslave

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In theory free trade between nations of approximately equal economic status should work to the advantage of all.
In practice the imbalance between nations is such as to ensure that many will suffer both in wealthy and poor nations.
Whats the solution? dunno.
Probably some genuine democracy in wealthy nations and the poorer nation will slide deeper into the shite.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/14/2008 4:13:22 PM >

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 6

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 4:29:08 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Thanks for the responses so far. Personally, I dont feel that there is nothing that we can do about all this - subject to us having any say in the matter of course. We all know the limitations of our democratic processes.

As a supporter of the EU, its a difficult one for me to consider the UK withdrawing from it. Nevertheless, in my business I see much of the net economic effects to the UK of our membership, and these give me pause to think. Quite aside from issues of sovereigty over our own affairs - for to me it matters little whether the regulations which govern life originate from here or wherever else, since I have little or no say over them regardless, it seems clear that our membership has not benefitted us in relation to trade with the continent, unless one accounts twice as many imports as exports as a success, the undoing of much of our economy as a benefit and enormous job losses as an improvement.

With regard to the global economy I see the same net effects, which in time of war would make us very much the losing side. In many ways, I start to see it all as a form of warfare - the object of which as in war, is to damage one's opponent and to gain control over him and his resources. And just as in a war, it is the ordinary people of society who pay the price, whilst the leaders trumpet nonsensical contrary propaganda and the financiers make a fortune.

I am coming more round to the idea that each country would do far better to return to a more natural state of affairs, such that it is no longer subject to extraneous influences which cause damage to its economy and thence to its society over which it has no control whatsoever by way of various international agreements and conventions. This does not mean adopting a hostile stance towards any other country, but rather minding our own affairs and cooperating where it is needful and mutually advantageous to do so.

What I am interested in, is what effects such a change might have. I would guess that it would mean in the short to medium term a huge upheaval, followed in the medium term by the rebuilding of each country's economy and thence society and in the longer term a more prosperous country - with the prosperity distributed more fairly than is the case today.
E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 7

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 4:57:11 AM

pahunkboy

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Good topic! Watch c-span. DIG online all the time. DIG DIG DIG. make noise to the right people.

You see, "they" are very afraid that too many will protest at the same time. Police are now being trained as 80% chance of roadside bomb in US. CIA- now doing softwear and psy ops- to guess who does what in any scenareo.

We got here be being ignorant.

Learn the law process.
Ask the right questions.
make them KNOW you are WATCHING.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 8

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 5:02:23 AM

SugarMyChurro

Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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The United States was probably a mistake. California could easily be its own nation, perhaps even two nations. Being part of the U.S. just ties our hands and forces us to conform to policies that might be a fit for Massachusetts or Florida but not so much for ourselves. There are some very large areas of government where it's less of a concern, but once you get down to details one size doesn't fit all and we all know that fact.

For example: the FDA cannot handle everything that comes in its doors. No federal agency can. It's madness!

Trade agreements suck ass because they were planned to benefit the few and not the many, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. That said, I have to admit that for me charity always begins at home. I am interested if Mexicans or Canadians have a tough life, but I am more concerned for the people in need in my own country. If everyone took care of their own, that's all that would be necessary.

One nation cannot control the whole globe. It should neither try for empire nor charity on that scale. It's sheer idiocy. Globalists clearly want to make one neck ready for one collar and one leash. I borrow that idea from Ayn Rand, but at least it's one of her truer observations.

Later on I might try to answer the questions in the OP in a pithier, more straight-forward way - these were just off the cuff comments by way of introduction.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 5/15/2008 5:04:49 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 9

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 5:13:42 AM

pahunkboy

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It does make you wonder if any state will try to succeed. In fact 24 states are adding up the pluses and minuses of succession.

The only thing that MIGHT stop a break up is those on Social Security. Which brings me to the current debate in DC, infrastructure. This as well as many burdens are best solved by the state. We act like we can pull money out of a hat. But we cant, hence the Bear Stearns bail out. [cost you $1500.00, and I mean YOU]

Last night Hannity on FOx Said "thank god we have fox, the alternative media". Im like WHAT!

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)

Post #: 10

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 5:26:27 AM

caitlyn

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1. The most powerful nations, need to withdraw from organizations that make no sense, both trade organizations and political organizations. For example: It may make sense for Europeans to stick with the EU ... so many rich, powerful rivals in so small an area, not having an EU might be a recipe for warfare. It makes no sense for a country like the United States to be part of the United Nations, in it's current form. By and large, this organization has turned in to something paid for by the American taxpayer, to do things the American taxpayer does not want done. This is not to say that the UN is "wrong", only to say that it makes no sense being part of an organization that doesn't serve an nation's agenda ... much less paying the lion's share of that organization.

2. The economy is global, because technology has made the world a smaller place. There is no way around this.

3. I can only address the situation in my own country. Americans are whiners .. period. We want to be an industrial giant again, but don't want to allow cheap labor into our country. We want to be a superpower that never uses force to push its own agenda. Choices need to be made. For myself ... I think a return to the days of industrial might would be a good thing for my homeland ... and quite frankly, being a superpower mostly sucks, I have no idea why we ever wanted to be one in the first place, and having had a taste of it, no idea why we are working so hard to keep this status.

Results on the people ... varies nation to nation. As stated earlier ... if I was a European, I would stick with the EU, if for no other reason, to help avoid war. As an American, if we stay on our current path, we will probably end up having to overthrow a tyrannical government, which will probably cost millions of lives.

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RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 5:46:22 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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the argument that the other country will lift tarriffs and we already let products in tarriff free, WHY would WE have to approve THEM from lifting THEIR TARRIFFS?

yet we fall for it every time

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 12

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 8:14:38 AM

Arpig

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quote:

By and large, this organization has turned in to something paid for by the American taxpayer,

Unless I am mistaken, I believe that the US does not pay its UN dues and is something like $1-billion in arrears.

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Post #: 13

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 8:29:30 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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OH but Arpig, surely that will be waived in the light of the UN policing action in Iraq which President Bush so nobly directed?

And the balance of the billions of dollars the action has cost and will cost, settled by the UN too?

More seriously though, the impression I get here is that the US, whilst it may not pay its membership dues, (mind you, the rent on real estate in New York is what?), is one of the few that steps up to the plate to fund UN programmes?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 14

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 9:24:11 AM

Leatherist

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1. Educate the masses as to the differences between economy and false economy.

2. Do ruthless product reviews-and show people why some higher priced goods will save them money in the long run-or why some higher priced goods are not worth it. Also show the consequences of supporting goods made with shortcuts, inferior materials-and labor kept at sub par rates.

3. Penalize countries that drop thier currency values to be unfairly competitve in the world market-ie, in exports. China is a good example of a predatory state export policy.

4. Cut taxes on manufacturing.

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Post #: 15

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 9:54:50 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

By and large, this organization has turned in to something paid for by the American taxpayer,

Unless I am mistaken, I believe that the US does not pay its UN dues and is something like $1-billion in arrears.

You aren't mistaken:

quote:

As the US continues not to pay UN contributions in full, the US is responsible for approximately half of the UN debt.

Global Policy Forum

All this 'the US should pull out of the United Nation' rhetoric makes me laugh: Americans are amongst the most influential people within the organisation. It's a demagogic discourse that plays on jingoism and isolationism. You should see the way American staff members bully their way around the UN. The United States profit enormously from UN influence, yet still refuse to pay towards it... oh, the irony.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/15/2008 10:19:18 AM >

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Post #: 16

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 10:36:17 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

The United States was probably a mistake. California could easily be its own nation, perhaps even two nations. Being part of the U.S. just ties our hands and forces us to conform to policies that might be a fit for Massachusetts or Florida but not so much for ourselves. There are some very large areas of government where it's less of a concern, but once you get down to details one size doesn't fit all and we all know that fact.

For example: the FDA cannot handle everything that comes in its doors. No federal agency can. It's madness!

Trade agreements suck ass because they were planned to benefit the few and not the many, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem. That said, I have to admit that for me charity always begins at home. I am interested if Mexicans or Canadians have a tough life, but I am more concerned for the people in need in my own country. If everyone took care of their own, that's all that would be necessary.

One nation cannot control the whole globe. It should neither try for empire nor charity on that scale. It's sheer idiocy. Globalists clearly want to make one neck ready for one collar and one leash. I borrow that idea from Ayn Rand, but at least it's one of her truer observations.

Later on I might try to answer the questions in the OP in a pithier, more straight-forward way - these were just off the cuff comments by way of introduction.

Churro, right on the money as usual, "for the benefit of the few."
There are about 20,000 people and companies who get insanely rich from all this and basically, "bribe" politicians to keep things this way.
Then the Pols tells us, "they're worried about ,"the consumer!"
Oh really?
That we're not buying cheap plastic junk from China fast enough?
That assumes that we "need" cheap plastic junk from China.
I have to laugh when politicians come out and say, "those jobs aren't comming back!" They sound desperate.There must be a lot of bribes,...er,...I mean "contributions" at stake.
I don't "ask" politicians.
I "tell" them.
They're in office to do the bidding of, The People.
They're not in office to "dictate" to us.
We tell them what we want done, they don't tell us!
There was someone else in here who did a paper in college about Nafta and they said all the "meetings" were only attended by various businesses and not labor, citizens groups etc.
That's a bad omen!
The American People were never consulted about Nafta or these other "free trade" deals, were we?
I never got a questionaire or phone call from my congressman.
And Caitlyn, good post!
Most Americans want out of the "U.N."
It's morphed ("mission creep") into a huge 100,000 person beaurocracy that tries to tell countries what to do.
Either the U.S. govt. starts listening to The People or we need to change the govt!

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Post #: 17

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/15/2008 9:03:48 PM

caitlyn

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Joined: 12/22/2004
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What is the only way the United Stated can be responsible for half the debt, by not paying dues?

Respectfully Arpig and kSol, this has to be the single weakest point I have ever seen on this board. I actually got a major laugh out of it ... so thank you.

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Post #: 18

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/16/2008 5:07:10 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

You obviously didn't bother reading the global policy forum link I attached. Are you actually informed at all? Or is it just your opinion you're spewing out?

http://www.un.org/geninfo/ir/index.asp?id=150

You obviously aren't bothering to think about the number of delegates the USA have in the United Nations, their status within the Security Council, and a plethora of other things upon which the contributions are calculated. Your rabid anti UN stance is making me laugh: get a job there, and you'll have a better idea what you're talking about.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/16/2008 5:09:56 AM >

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Post #: 19

RE: calling all economists...... - 5/16/2008 11:55:33 AM

PainSmith

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From: the Republic
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IMHO, to describe the EU as a pan-national trading agreement is to misunderstand it. For example, a major purpose of the EU is to suppress war between members by tying them together, especially economically. The economics are a tool for the goal, they happen to be a positive tool.

In the 50 years before its predecessor organisation was created, two border disputes between founder members dragged the whole world into war. Since then, there has not been one war between EU members, let alone any disputes causing world war. Of course, you can't say because something hasn't happened, it can't happen, but the EU clearly has a positive influence against war, at the very least, and I hope it continues.

There have been wars in Europe since the formation of the EU, but not between EU members. Some of those wars were between NATO members.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 20

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