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them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 11:41:38 AM   
LadyEllen


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Thousands of tonnes of strawberries and other fruits are set to rot in the fields of England this summer - because the east Europeans who have been coming here for years to earn money by fruit picking are not coming this year.

Is this laziness? No

It is because the value of Sterling has fallen by an average 15% against the Euro and east European currencies - as a result of the reckless habits of the British banking sector who embroiled themselves in the subprime crisis - and the east European workers can earn more by working at home or in another EU country.

Just wait till the thousands of others who work here more regularly start catching on - the loss of just the truck drivers would bring the UK to a grinding halt.

E

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:03:36 PM   
LordOfTheMad


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Perhaps they should go on a recruitment drive around universities/colleges etc, provide transport. They pay something like £7 an hour I think so it's not bad money.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:29:38 PM   
pahunkboy


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thats odd.  i did not think UK was the banana fest that the US is [lately]

on high diesel, isnt it conventient.  Biz would love to use Mexican truck drivers,  $5 an hour.   makes one wonder.

also- i wonderred that city slicksters are moving in [this town]  on the one hand we dont want it. on the other hand values might go up since they are use to metro prices... ?

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:50:35 PM   
Termyn8or


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LE, as strange as it may sound this might be a good thing. I mean think about it, the market is adjusting itself. I wish it would happen here.

This is a market adjustment that was not planned and manipulated by those who sold our countries out with their free trade agreements. Now that the "strawberry index" is up the pound will fall more.

I find it hard to believe that nobody is unemployed there. These farmers had no notion whatsoever of going to an unemployment office or a public assistance office and finding some workers. Notice the lack of a question mark at the end of the sentence.

I guess even a strawberry farmer could have the hubris to think he can influence the market. If I needed workers I could find them. Shit, I would go to the schools if nothing else and offer after school and weekends jobs. There are plenty of people out there who want to work but are unemployed or underemployed.

But something that in my circle has been termed "the almighty buck", you might use quid, but it still applies. They will take a loss of the whole crop rather than a bit less profit. I know all about this type of people.

But is the strawberry farmer wrong ? The fact is most likely that the government made it very attractive to use foreign labo(u)r.

I am starting to think that governments are not the whole problem. People generally  support more protection for workers, environmental, economic and otherwise. As such, in the US there is a growing contingent of the population that is working for temp services.

Perhaps the British government is as bad, I would not know but I can tell you this. A friend of mine was down and took the first damn job he could get. It was through a temp service. Dirty work in a factory, a foundry in fact. IMO any job in that environment should pay $15 per hour, but he made eight. You can't live on that.

But get this and get your math cap on. The company was paying the temp service over $18 per hour for him. We have a situation where the guy who does the work makes less than those who don't. When you have built a company and have it running, that might be OK, but these are strictly outsiders who have probably never even seen the plant.

But the thing is, the policies and practices that drive a business to do this are formulated by the government in any country. In the UK you want that free health care, so naturally you expect some taxation. In the US an employer is so suable it is not funny. Almost anything can be called negligence.

So here it is to the point where someone canbe sitting in an office counting the money, even somewhere else, and make more than the person doing the actual work. Alla temp service does is collect the money, rake their piece of it off and write a paycheck with the taxes taken out. One person in the company could do that, saving all that overhead. Why don't they ?

The math don't lie. They are paying $18 an hour for this guy, he is getting $8. If it is that costly to take on another employee in this country, THAT is what needs to be changed. Really, you can get someone for $10 an hour to come in, even part time, to calculate the deductions and write the checks.

And this foundry had perhaps ten or more people from this agency, that is $100 per hour for doing almost nothing. What's more there was a scandal almost that I mentioned a while back. Of the people who worked through this agency, a few of them were having child support taken out of their checks. My buddy was raked for $95 every week.

Well the agency was not sending the money in, just hanging onto it. A bunch of guys couldn't have driver's licenses, and were in danger of being arrested. I called myu certain ethnic lawyer about this, toldhim seems tro me with allthis maybe something can be made of it. I called him because I respect his opinion. What he told me then cleared it all up.

He basically said that a massive lawsuit would just prompt the agency to go out of business and they probably not all that collectable even now. It would be better to use the weight of the government to force compliance. That is what happened and they had to write some big checks (cheques).

But what force is it that makes it more desirable for a company to pay over double a worker's wage ? On the surfaceit makes no sense, but if you really think about it, there must be something. My sister could do payroll at home and bring the chacks every Friday, even at $20 an hour, they would be saving alot of money, you would think.

You would think.

Something causes overseas outsourcing, and that is people. People who have the demand. The source prospers, but everythingthey can do to make sure that the execs and other suits get most of the money is done every day.

You are allowed to make money as a business owner, or at least I thought so. But you must make payroll and the bills when things are not so good. You have a contract with the employees, they are paid a fixed rate and can count on a certain amount of money each week. You deal with fluctuations and all that, but they can count on their job and make their house payments and so forth.

That I see as a constructive and mutually beneficial agreement between employer and employee. However it has been said that loyalty defies the law of gravity in that in it's case, what goes up does not come down.

In the old days people harvested their apples and got themselves an apple cart. If your horse needs shoes, take a couple of bucks over to this guy. Eggs ? go on up the road, they got milk too. That is that the customer was directly involved with the supplier. This has changed.

The people at the top are far removed from those at the bottom. This constructs a barrier. And this barrier widens every year. There are almost no new real jobs created in this country. Service sector, wait a minute, how many happy meals do you have to give them for a plasma TV ?

Something is not right.

Remember the constant that it is easier to get a dollar each out of a million people than it is to get a million dollars from one. Well all the mass manufacturing has been taken over by China, Taiwan, Japan, Malasia and on and on. Places with cheap labor.

Well let's say there are no rich people, your new plasma TV would be about a hundred bucks. If made in the US maybe two hundred bucks. But it's two thousand.

Who gets the rest of that money ?

T

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:53:51 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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England, particularly the British Royals, has very close ties to what happens in the U.S. The British own lots of properties abroad. It's part of the whole tax exile thing - they own abroad and fudge on the taxes back home.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:56:12 PM   
popeye1250


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LE, no problem!
In a capitalist society if you can't get workers at a certain wage level you just up the wages and benefits until you can.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 12:57:15 PM   
kittinSol


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No British straws?!!! What's going to happen at Wimbledon  ?!

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 1:05:13 PM   
pahunkboy


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temp agencies demand the worker do 90 days or pay a fee.

they "screen" and send "only qualified" workers.  hehe

another day- another bounced check fee.  im loosing track of what one error has costed.  [computer error]   I think it is $175.00 at this point.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 1:14:10 PM   
BrigandDoom


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The shortage of LGV drivers is now chronic, I'm in sooo much demand now for the first time I'm considering giving up the comfy office job and going back on the road as I can now pick and choose my work. Back to the early 1990's wooooooohooooooooo

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 1:22:46 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Long post, Termie.

I'll address only your complaint about a temp agency making more than the actual worker.

Temp services provide two basic benefits for other businesses, not simply the one that you would think.

The first is the services of workers on a "temporary" basis, as you would think from the industry title.

The second service is actually the more important one - it isolates the business that is contracting for the worker from State and Federal hiring and firing regulations, and from lawsuits based on violation of employment practices.

In other words, it has primarily been government regulation which has encouraged the market to pay a temp agency more to absorb the possible dangerous exposure to litigation, than it is to pay the worker to actually do the job.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 5/12/2008 1:24:09 PM >


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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 2:22:13 PM   
LadyEllen


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ah Termy spotted the issue - British workers are lazy, well not so much workers and not so much lazy.

We have more than enough people on unemployment benefits who are perfectly fit and able to pick fruit. But, the work is beneath them, regardless of what pay is offered. It isnt that they are lazy so much, as that the benefit system keeps them on benefits, like overgrown babies who cannot be weaned since mother's milk is so comfortable - which is odd when judged in financial terms since they could earn more working - but the cradle is warm. In any case, working a few days means one leaves the benefit system and then has to go through the whole rigmarole again to reapply - and it is one hell of a rigmarole.

It neednt be like this.

E



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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 2:57:18 PM   
seeksfemslave


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LadyE: you are soooooo judgemental. Surely that is not Liberal Democrat policy.
My suggestion is we offer cheap fares to Aussie aborigines to come and pick strawberries.
adding: on todays Archers ( brit radio soap) one of the characters said how hard working the Polish immigrants are.
Just thought I would like to say that. No reason really.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 5/12/2008 3:00:54 PM >

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 3:32:37 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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We have the same problem here in the states, of course. I'm over here in the breadbasket part of California and I can assure you that while canneries pay well for their factory workers (decently anyway) the crop pickers are in the main illegals and don't earn shit (except as compared to what they earn back home). They have to keep the workers coming in illegally because that's how how cheap labor republicans want it. It's the usual race to the bottom that is killing us all by degrees.

Much is explained by simply following the money trail.

I see Seeks wants to blame a liberal faction in government for this state of affairs, but that's absurd. I can tell you that I am not going to pick in the fields for the money on offer either. Off-shoring labor to China and Thailand etc has enabled these near slave labor techniques to go largely unnoticed, except when it comes to the agricultural sector of the economy. Then everyone points like a monkey and blames the opposition. But if the job paid well they'd find takers for the labor - but it doesn't, so they don't.

If they had "la migra" hitting farmers with huge, motherfucking fines for hiring illegals then maybe the pay scale would rise to the level that the work would interest U.S. citizens. But until that happens, people will blithely ignore labor laws. It's that simple.

When and if they actually close the border to Mexico expect prices for some fresh foods to head skyward.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 4:30:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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I can't really argue against that KY, but it is still the powers that ve who make cetain things desirable and others undesirable for a business.

If we the people had any solidarity at all, we could have a chance at changing this, but we don't. We have not thought ahead and most people are behind the eightball when it comes to debt. Nothing is happening to change this as of yet.

It will though, or there are going to be alot more people on the street and alot more vacant houses. Of course that is going to happen, and then the government will concoct some sort of "relief" that favors their friends. But the houses will be owned and occupied and they can claim a great victory.

But anything like that will appear as them helping us. It will not reveal the fact that it is we, the working people in society who make the rich rich.

You think LE is rich if she owns a trucking company ? Shit, I would drop my liability insurance to the bare minimum, they will not take the company. They do not want it. In the case of Debbie Shank, they settled for the limit of liability, and if I were one of her lawyers I would probably say to take the deal. The last kind of business you want to be in right now is anything to do with transportation. A gold mine on the other hand would be a different story, but this is about as far from it as you can get.

In the top 1% earners in this country and think you are rich ? Think again. How much of the national debt do you finance personally ? People make money doing that you know. It is those people who have made things how they are, and it is we, and nobody else who have let them.

LE, wanna fight back ? Do the math, shut down the trucking co and offer up the rigs for lease. When the people can't get eggs or cheese, let them fight the battle. If you can, get your competition to do the same.

But wait, when you cooperate that is a cnspiracy, when the powers that be cooperate it is something else, because they reserve the right to define conspiracy.

Let me ask this, who is collecting all these licensing fees, and tariffs and all the other shit that has to be paid ? And just who is collecting that $125 a barrell for oil ? This is where the money is going, and that is fact.

In the US three out of four new businesses are taxed to death in their second year of existence. To death.

That oil comes from the ground, as does natural gas. It is taken, not made. Some time ago it was no problem to sell gasoline for a few cents a gallon. In fact it was considered a waste product at one time. Now it is like gold. Now it is like the one substance that makes the world go round.

How did we get here ?

You may or may not want to know, but I know. It is the same age old problem and this is just another example of a pre-revolutionary society. History repeats itself and those who do not learn from it shall suffer the consequences. They think themselves invincible when in reality the are the most vulnerable people on the planet.

The have the useful facade of strength, and the cover of law to do their dirty work, but it is slowly but surely falling apart. They are spead too thin and making way too many enemies. That is a recipe for failure if I ever saw one. The disenchanted grow in number every day, and they get their military might spread thinner every day. What would you suppose is the logical conclusion ?

If you were in Iraq just crawling out of a mudhole and Bush or Blair was up there blathering about some bullshit, would you be tempted to shoot their stoooooooopid ass ? If you were a prison guard and three of your paychecks had bounced and so did those of your coworkers, would you be tempted to open the doors and let the inmates out ?

You see, that is the key, when their money fails, they fail. But not until then.

It is going to be a fun ride, hold on for your life.

T

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 6:27:46 PM   
GreedyTop


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Hmm...*ponders applying for a visa to pick berries*

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 6:29:30 PM   
Leatherist


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That's what they get for being cheapskates, and setting up the market based on undervalued labor.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 6:48:14 PM   
thornhappy


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This has been an issue all along - we don't pay the true cost of a product that's using illegal labor.  If you want all the illegals out, you need to cowboy up and pay the increased costs.

thornhappy

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 9:07:48 PM   
Alumbrado


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Which is why politicians, from either side of the aisle, support 'guestworker' initiatives and lax enforcement... no matter what they rail about in their speeches.

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 9:19:00 PM   
subfever


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I'll bet we could talk Popeye into navigating a huge boatload of our illegal aliens over to you in time for the harvest.

If that idea is a no-go, we can always assemble a group of aging hippies armed with LSD to camp out and sing "Strawberry Fields" as they watch the strawberries rot. 

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RE: them lazy immigrants - 5/12/2008 9:26:23 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
...we can always assemble a group of aging hippies armed with LSD to camp out and sing "Strawberry Fields" as they watch the strawberries rot.


And this means what exactly?



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