Competition (Full Version)

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Level -> Competition (5/1/2008 6:11:03 PM)

quote:


When the philosopher Satchel Paige warned us not to look back (because something might be gaining on us), he couldn’t have imagined how prescient he was, even though his own career in baseball pointed the way to the world we would all someday inhabit. Restricted to the Negro Leagues for more than two decades, Paige finally broke into Major League Baseball in 1948. Within a couple of decades black ballplayers had become dominant figures in the majors, the Negro Leagues had ­collapsed—­and baseball had become a much more competitive ­place.

That will happen when barriers fall. Technology has some of the same effects: Newspapers find themselves competing with bloggers, traditional stores with Amazon, and singles bars with Cupid.com. Americans find that, thanks in part to technologies they invented or pioneered, they’re competing with workers in India, China, and other ­far-­off lands who are willing do the same work for a lot less money. Even individuals in need of a Little League logo or a personal webpage are finding people who can do the job for less in Bucharest or ­Bangla­desh.

Competition—­the reality but also the ­metaphor—­has somehow come to pervade modern life, much as we try to wish it away or pretend, as in ­five-­year-­olds’ soccer games, that it isn’t really going on. In some cities, the preschool admissions process is as fraught as the mass version of musical chairs with which top universities fill their classes. ­Stepped-­up competition is apparent in the workplace as well. Companies are less willing or able to carry unproductive employees, but in today’s competitive business environment even productive workers can receive a pink slip when circumstances persuade executives that cutbacks make sense. Companies these days are less constrained by sentiment or tradition when considering whether to outsource, move, or shut a plant. A study earlier this year by economists Thomas Lemieux, W. Bentley MacLeod, and Daniel Parent found that “the overall incidence of performance-pay jobs has increased from a little more than 30 percent in the late 1970s to more than 40 percent in the 1990s.” Bonus, commission, ­piecework—­whatever you want to call it, pay for production makes work seem a lot more competitive. When Fortune magazine reported on white-collar workers “fired at fifty” who couldn’t find comparable positions, the best advice from the experts was to embrace “involuntary entrepreneurship,” which of course means competing on your own without a company-provided pension, health insurance, sick days, or ­vacation.


http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=358755

How important is competition to society?




kittinSol -> RE: Competition (5/1/2008 6:41:21 PM)

Too important. This society thrives on competition at all cost. The desire to win drives people totally round the bend.

Too much competition, not enough laid-backness. Too much cheerleading: come to think of it, cheerleading is the proof that society's gone nuts with the competitive spirit. (I hate cheerleading with a fucking vengeance, can you tell [8D] ?)





TheHeretic -> RE: Competition (5/1/2008 7:57:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
How important is competition to society?



       It's critical.  Competition is what drives us to keep growing and evolving.  Society stagnates without it.  Hell, the whole species stagnates without.  I'm of the opinion that we live somewhere in the middle of history, not at the end.  Is what we are now as good as it gets?

      




Level -> RE: Competition (5/1/2008 8:00:33 PM)

Hoooooly shit, Rich, I hope not! As much as I love life here and now, there is so much room for improvement.
 
 




Aileen1968 -> RE: Competition (5/1/2008 8:06:21 PM)

Competition is only good when I win.




kittinSol -> RE: Competition (5/1/2008 8:36:00 PM)

Okay... parents who push cute but perfectly ordinary sprogs as if they were the next Einstein or Karajan are annoying. Bad losers are horrible, and they're a growing breed. Bad winners are even worse (soooo embarrassing to see adults punch the air as if they were six, but worse is when they taunt the opposite side). Self-trumpetting (we're the best, we're the richest, my dad's bigger than your dad) is cringeworthy. Isn't there a huge culture of desiring to have the biggest car, kitchen, tits-on-wife as well? And what's with this obsession of announcing the price of everything?

People today know the price of everything and the value of nothing - Oscar Wilde.

Healthy competition is a great thing, no doubt about it. But Level was talking of something else entirely. I like it when a winner is graceful enough to congratulate his or her opponent. It's fantastic when the opponent congratulates the winner. Fairplay's great: I wish it wouldn't disappear down the bog. Fairplay doesn't kill the competitive spirit: I think it enhances it and transcends it into something altogether more genteel and civilised.

Old-fashioned, moi? [:(]




Termyn8or -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 12:37:43 AM)

Competition has not resulted in a viable society, cooperation has.

Too bad we gave up the latter idea.

T




meatcleaver -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 2:05:50 AM)

Competition is far too overated and the desire to do something is far too underated.

Competition is just about beating those people you perceive yourself to be competing against and has nothing to do with excellence. The desire to do something because one has a passion is not about competing but about being interested in ones chosen vocation.

Competition might get luxury products to the market at the cheapest possible price but the quality of life doesn't depend on luxury products. If competition was so great we would allow farmers and other essential services to compete and we don't.




SugarMyChurro -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 2:24:36 AM)

I prefer win-win scenarios. Americans believe only in win-lose scenarios.

Stupid.

Cooperation, not competition, is key. But there's always some asshole that wants to take sole credit, ignoring everyone around him, and even after standing on the shoulders of the giants before him.

There's a cliche that goes: "Behind every great man there is a great woman." Whether that's true or not, the idea behind the statement is that we don't produce greatness on our own but by acting in teams most often.




SilverMark -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 2:54:46 AM)

Competition is vital!
Cooperation is nice...but face the facts, what has driven each nation to succeed, to provide for it's people, to allow for the weaker to be helped by those that are stronger, is competition. Is that to say that it is always fair or nice...NO!....Without the drive to succeed, to compete, to win, no one succeeds.
Not to sound unduly harsh but someone has to take the lead in each endeavor. Is everyone suited for it? No....Does it need to be entered into at the age of 3 for a spot in a pre-school? No....somewhere along the way, competition is crucial.
I am not some flag waving Republican but, I do believe in winning....it has allowed Me to succeed, to develop a business that provides for over 30 people that are given the credit daily for the business success and rewarded in more ways than money alone, although they earn a good living.
May not be a popular view here but, It is My view at any rate.
Competition is not avarice or greed is it learning to succeed or fail.






Asherdelampyr -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 2:56:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Competition is vital!
Cooperation is nice...but face the facts, what has driven each nation to succeed, to provide for it's people, to allow for the weaker to be helped by those that are stronger, is competition. Is that to say that it is always fair or nice...NO!....Without the drive to succeed, to compete, to win, no one succeeds.
Not to sound unduly harsh but someone has to take the lead in each endeavor. Is everyone suited for it? No....Does it need to be entered into at the age of 3 for a spot in a pre-school? No....somewhere along the way, competition is crucial.
I am not some flag waving Republican but, I do believe in winning....it has allowed Me to succeed, to develop a business that provides for over 30 people that are given the credit daily for the business success and rewarded in more ways than money alone, although they earn a good living.
May not be a popular view here but, It is My view at any rate.
Competition is not avarice or greed is it learning to succeed or fail.





This




LadyEllen -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 3:09:04 AM)

The advantages of competition are clear - but the advantages of cooperation are also clear. I wonder whether it is in the balance of these two drives that we get the best from each?

And thus whether it is competition against which the drive to cooperation has been undermined, which is leading us into problems, in the same way perhaps that cooperation allowed to run unchecked by a competitive drive will lead a society into the stagnation of the former Eastern Bloc?

But then has cooperation been undermined? One could say that its spirit is now present in international cooperation, with free trade areas, favoured trading nation status awards, the dropping of tariffs and so on; cooperation is now worldwide, not just community, state or nation wide.

Except that such an expression of cooperation directly mitigates against one's community, state and nation, and is not equal to the task of balancing out the competition present in one's community, state and nation. It is a perverse form of cooperation, which in fact has been co-opted by the competitive drive and to the ends of the competitive drive.

E




Level -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 3:25:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The advantages of competition are clear - but the advantages of cooperation are also clear. I wonder whether it is in the balance of these two drives that we get the best from each?

E


Sounds reasonable to me.
 
Competition, cooperation, fair play, learning to succeed and fail, all are valid concepts. But, as with most things, there's a line to be drawn; driving to win, at any expense, is something I generally find loathsome.




meatcleaver -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 4:42:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Competition is vital!
Cooperation is nice...but face the facts, what has driven each nation to succeed, to provide for it's people, to allow for the weaker to be helped by those that are stronger, is competition. Is that to say that it is always fair or nice...NO!....Without the drive to succeed, to compete, to win, no one succeeds.



Not at all. If comptition was about providing for the weaker members of society, Karl Marx wouldn't have written Das Kapital, there would never have been a trade union movement and socialism would have never been articulated as a political philosophy. Economic competition robbed the poor of their land and livihood and forced them into towns to live in desease ridden conditions and working long hours for next to no money. Socialism forced laissez faire capitalists to cooperate rather than rape.

Most meaningful inventions did not come about through competition but through necessity and knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Competition comes after when people want to make money from inventions which largely means denying society of knowledge and often denying the inventors of profit from their inventions. Let's take one of the earliest and major inventions of the modern age, the Gutenburg Press. Johannes Gutenburg dedicated much of his life to inventing the printing press and had to borrow money to pursue his ambition. The moment he had created a working printing press, the merchant he borrowed the money from demanded repayment knowing Gutenburg couldn't immediately repay him so he took the printing press as part of Gutenburg's debt. Gutenburg was left with nothing. As in many cases, competition was really about greed and theft. The merchant didn't have to take Gutenburg's press as Gutenburg with the press had the means to earn and repay the merchant many times over. The merchant sadly is not atypical of competition in western society, they are on the whole vultures.




Termyn8or -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 8:12:10 AM)

You have no doubt heard of the Sherman Antitrust act ?

It might be a good time to review exactly WHY there was a Sherman Antitrust act.

And note when it was passed.

T




subtee -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 8:29:30 AM)

It seems to me unmitigated competition is problematic; when enough is never enough and never will be enough. Exxon Mobil netted a $10.89 billion profit in the first three months of this year, the second-highest U.S. corporate profit on record—the highest was netted in the previous quarter: a record $11.66 billion. The profits in and of themselves are obscene, given that people are starting to seriously struggle with paying for gas. But Exxon then returned 8 billion for the purchase of their own stock to increase the value of the remaining stock.
 
They don’t look around, they’re disconnected. Is not dread of thirst when your well is full, thirst that is unquenchable? (Gibran)
They don’t see other humans’ struggles or the absolute necessity of prioritizing the furtherance of renewable fuels sources. It’s unbridled and it’s so ingrained as a part of a “winner” mentality that most folks aren’t even outraged.




philosophy -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 8:34:42 AM)

FR

...unless a balance is found between competition and cooperation then things go awry. Both are necessary, if one is put above the other then disaster is assured.




Archer -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 9:12:40 AM)

subtee, just a question for you? do you know Retirement funds own a huge part of Exxon?
The money/ profits they make are funding for one thing Teacher's Union retirement funds, and all sorts of other pension funds. So you want to take away people's retirement money they invested in Exxon?

Mutual funds, index funds and pension funds (including union pension funds) own about 52 percent of Exxon Mobil’s shares. Individual shareholders, about two million or so, own almost all the rest. The pooh-bahs who run Exxon own less than 1 percent of the company.

Still want to take away their profits? Be prepared to explain why this year they the investors will not be allowed to have the dividends on their money added to ther 401K's and their pension funds.





cjan -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 9:32:43 AM)

Philosophy, I agree with you. But, one problem that I have is that philosophy, unlike applied ideologies such as socialism, communism and calitalism, is that it is mostly an abstraction. It seems that, in the real world, when ideologies are applied and tested, they succeed or fail based on real markets and social dynamics.

This thread brought to mind the speech in this video clip. I think, one may take the liberty to substitute the word "competition" for the word " greed". It depends entirely on how one defines it, imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKkuJVy2YA





subtee -> RE: Competition (5/2/2008 9:49:35 AM)

Does that include the $389,000,000 retirement package for ex-chairman Lee Warren,  including pension, stock options and other perks, such as a $1 million consulting deal, two years of home security, personal security, a car and driver, and use of a corporate jet for professional purposes.  That is unbridled. It's disgusting.

My point wasn't meant to be specific to EXXON; I think think we should each of us realize our connections to each other and to the planet. It seems to me those that are taking so much do not feel these connections, just that they are the "winners."

In his testimony last November Raymond told Congress, "We're all in this together, everywhere in the world."  Do you think he believes it?




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