RE: food

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Alumbrado -> RE: food (4/29/2008 3:57:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7372393.stm ....what responsibility to we, the world community, have towards those affected by the rise in world food prices? You should be directing your question to the Board of Directors of ADM, and the members of the iron triangle.

Termyn8or -> RE: food (4/29/2008 10:28:14 PM)
Dusty, I appreciate the support but there is no way you are going here with me now. Harsh, you haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg in me. Mass sterilizations and executions. One murder, one rape, two burglaries, a few petty thefts, whack em. Be done with it. Get out of the supposedly human mold that holds you in it's clutches and engage in some really free thinking. Thinking that human life is so precious and all that bullshit. I was homeless and hungry at one time and I did not ask people for shit. I also did not go have seven kids and feed them fucking dirt. If I had I would hope if my family ever found out that they would find me, and KILL ME. Do you understand ? If I am one of the ones who have to go then so be it. I can't morally even say this shit unless I meant that. One day we might find out. Show up at the hospital pregnant, no money for the bill ? You get a free sterilization, otherwise get home and on your own kitchen table, or pile of dirt, err food, err whatever. I can't help. We are so majorly fucked that all we need is motherfuckers all over the place with seven kids and no fucking money. We simply cannot afford it. I don't mean the US, I don't mean Europe, I mean ALL OF US. We cannot do it anymore. If we can't get rid of the people who won't distribute condoms, we should at least prevent them from distributing food. You can delude yourself all day long with delusions of goodhood and Godhood, but the reality is this. The US government tried to commit genocide on the Native Americans here, and that was for gain, not out of desperation. They didn't quite get the job done so there are some left to tell about it, or their descendents at least. So don't anybody give me this moral high road bull shit. It just doesn't wash. Europe and America are just as guilty as Hitler, they just took longer to do it. Hitler had it all concentrated in a few years, the rest have been doing it for centuries. If you live in the US, you enjoy a standard of living that was once propped up by the near gonocide of the Native Americans and somewhat by slavery. Before you tellme that I can't say that there are some people on this planet who have to go, take a fucking look in the mirror. At least I do not fool myself about it. You think I like it this way ? Hell NO, but the crisis is coming and if we don't act we all go down. Ignore it. I am 47, I have no kids. I got what 13-15 years good life ? I think I can find a way to survive, hopefully if I make it that long. It is your children that will suffer if you don't clean up this planet, and after reading the above, you know what that means. No it is not pretty, and I will tell you what, now that I have spewed this forth because I just could not hold it any longer, I am going to read my book. Gonna roll one, go find that private directory and me, myself and I are going to enjoy what I wrote. It's a futuristic book about 400 years in the future, with much positive portent. I will go into this world just so for a few hours I can forget all this shit. You think I want to killl people ? You think I want to let people starve ? Hell No, but you can see, you know the alternative is worse. That is the point. TTFN. T

lilabbotsfordgrl -> RE: food (4/29/2008 10:34:01 PM)
I get some of what you're saying and agree with some of that, Termyn8or.

Zensee -> RE: food (4/29/2008 10:59:30 PM)
You volunteering to get whacked first for the benefit of the planet, Term? You clean enough to cast the first stone or dirty enough to loose both yours? Z.

popeye1250 -> RE: food (4/30/2008 12:06:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster Yeah, too many people, no doubt. So what has been the majority party and the fundie response to the problem? "Just Say No". Yeah, that's helpful. No condoms, no education, just "stop fucking". Right. Hippie, the Democrats have been the majority party for a year and a half now. What is all this stuff about us "giving" them stuff? 15 months = 18 months? Okey-doke. Which would you rather give away (that's what our "foreign aid" is, giving money with the stipulation that it will all be spent on US shit), weapons or condoms? Repubs were majority party since, what, 94? And they didn't do fuck-all. Don't go pissing and moaning about the Dems when the Smirking Chimp stops any progress with his "signing statements" (oh, boy, is that gonna come back and bite the repubs in the ass. Good.). Hippie, I don't believe in foreign aid. It's just not our government's job to be doing that kind of thing! The money is stolen by Lobbyists and big corporations anyway. If individuals want to help out of their own funds then fine, that's the way it should be done. Our taxdollars should be spent in this country, if not then give that money back to the Taxpayers to whom it rightly belongs! I believe strongly in Humanitarian aid. If any problems are going to be solved or attenuated, it's going to be through programs like the peace Corps and Vista, where people go to poor areas of the world and educate. Educate in birth control. Educate in nutrition. Educate in sanitation. Educate in sustainable (non-chemical) agriculture. If we are really a governmet of the People, then I choose to spend tax dollars in that way. If we are controlled by corporations (a Capitocracy), then it's time for a revolution, and I do not share the "Libertarian" view. I remain convinced that there are no food shortages, there are distortions in allocation due to unrestrained speculation. And that, killing people through starvation to make a few bucks for a hedge fund or investment club, is every bit as evil as putting people into Konzentrationslager and starving them there. Hippie, it's good that you believe in Humanitarian aid, now go find your checkbook. I just don't think that our government should be doing it "for" us. And, we've been "helping" these third world countries for 40 years now, when do they start "helping" themselves? We can't keep going down this road forever especially if these countries won't curb their populations. You know, you can only go to the well so many times. We're building hospitals in foreign countries and the taxes of the 47 million people in the U.S. who don't have any healthcare at all are helping to pay for it! What an insult! Our government's first obligation is to the American People!

Hippiekinkster -> RE: food (4/30/2008 12:14:09 AM)
Popeye, I don't disagree with most of what you say. Take care of us first. But our Human Capital can be of benefit to people in poor countries. The reason I stress education is that the more educated the women, the lower the birthrate. More resources for fewer people = higher standard of living. I think it works that way. I don't know what to do about the futures players. And I reject the "government = evil" dogma.

TheHeretic -> RE: food (4/30/2008 12:36:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ....what responsibility to we, the world community, have towards those affected by the rise in world food prices? emphasis added Responsibility? Precisely none. That in no way precludes us from doing what we can to alleviate the situation. We are creatures of great compassion. But we ain't obligated, and they ain't entitled.

Quivver -> RE: food (4/30/2008 1:17:47 AM)
To Hell with Giving, what is needed is Education.

Chloelicious -> RE: food (4/30/2008 4:45:14 AM)
If they are having so many children is mostly to be sure that one survived until his 7 years old. The women out there don't have many choices, they are not educated enough (not their fault) and they are submissive enough to don't tell their men: No not today honey I got headache!!!! Any human being got the choice to have compassion or not. You do as you feel. Just think about if things were different, If you were dying from malnutrition; would'nt you have someone who think about you and helped you? my own [sm=2cents.gif]

calamitysandra -> RE: food (4/30/2008 5:36:43 AM)
Education is the most importand thing we can, and should give. Not only for "their" sake, but for our and the sake of our children. As long as help comes in the form of handouts bound to terms that mostly benefit the giver, nothing will truly change. Only education has the power to set into motion the changes from within. The circle of poverty needs to be broken by those who are contained by it.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: food (4/30/2008 7:00:26 AM)
I don't really think this country should be lecturing anyone on education. Our idea of sex education are those wonderful abstinence programs that have worked oh so well. [8\|] As I said before, a great deal of the agricultural problems in the third world are rooted in the ridiculous practice of our governments in the West giving subsidies to farmers. Farmers in poor countries don't even get a chance to put their crops on the market, because they can't compete. What do we get in return for our subsidies? We get huge factory farms run by corporations that charge us way more for food than we should be paying. We wouldn't pay that much if there was competition in agriculture, just like in every other industry. People in poor countries wouldn't pay that much either, and they would have enough money to reinvest in their agricultural infrastructure.

kittinSol -> RE: food (4/30/2008 7:21:37 AM)
Farming subsidies allow western companies to have local growers produce cheap coffee, cotton and cocoa for western consumption. This means that local growers don't grow the food that could sustain their population. It also means that rich countries get luxuries at bargain prices: coffee should be way more expensive than it is. Were it not for the subsidies that convince local farmers to exploit the land in order to provide us with underpriced luxuries, we wouldn't drink the daily juggernauts of coffee we have grown so fond of.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: food (4/30/2008 8:04:28 AM)
Dittoing Chloelicious and KittinSol. I'd like to add that I oppose foreign aid of this kind. People elsewhere must learn to fish for themselves, not simply be given a fish in a crisis. If there is no long-term solution, then the fish won't help anyway. As the world has been struggling with this issue for a while now, it is my assessment that there is no long-term solution available at this time. Harsh but true. I'm all about teaching them how to fish, but I don't see any programs that have really made too much of an impact. The problem arises again and again and again...

slaveboyforyou -> RE: food (4/30/2008 8:15:39 AM)
Farm subsidies also flood third world markets with cheap staples like grain and dairy products. Google "farm subsidies" and "third world" and you'll come across a plethora of articles on the subject. Local farmers in countries too poor to offer subsidies can't compete with cheap staples from Europe and the U.S. So those farmers don't even bother, and their fellow citizens are dependent on our food. They never develop a modern agricultural infrastructure because there is no money to put back into it. So they end up losing in the end. It's one of the major reasons third world countries are often facing food shortages, because they don't have local resources to fall back on when prices rise. Like I said, there are plenty of articles on the subject. The WTO has condemned this practice for years because of it's negative impact on the poor.

Termyn8or -> RE: food (4/30/2008 8:40:59 AM)
I can agree with education, but I think the time for that was back when they weren't eating dirt,,,yet. Condoms ? Sure, even if we bypass the Catholics though, will they use them ? Alot of guys don't like them. Let me rephrase that, alot of educated guys with jobs and a family who have to pay to support their kids and don't particularly want any more don't like condoms. I think in trying to make a point I have given some the impression that I am a monster. But that point is to follow the law of nature. The law of nature is harsh and very unforgiving. Unfortunately the decisions that need to be made are accordingly harsh. Sometimes those decisions involve letting the most needy perish. Believe me friends, this does not make me happy, not at all. I used to allow myself the emotions associated with finding out about all the nasty things people are going through in the world. You can't do that, it will drive you nuts. But when you are able to detach emotionally then you can see the situation more clearly. Education is still the key though, but just how to handle that, as we have got that all botched up as well. In the US teen pregnancy is at an all time high. I wonder just how we would teach them things that we seem to have forgotten to teach our own kids. Perhaps we need some of our own medicine, or even some of mine. Perhaps a planned Parenthood clinic there, offering sterilizations and Norplant. Free food stamps with every Norplant, free lifetime food stamps with every sterilization. And not a dime from the government. From good people who would contribute out of free will. Something like that I might actually agree to, or more aptly put, support. Because this solution would really alleviate suffering rather than causing more, at least it is pallatable to me. Oh, OK maybe I am a monster. What I was going to say is that simply sending food and medicine is something that I am totally against, but I decided to add something. No medicine. Yes, that's what I said. Food, water and contraceptive measures, that is all. If the governments stayed the fuck out of it we could get them on their own feet in a couple of decades. Something like that I would support. In the long run the problem is solved without causing any more suffering. Nature did that, not I. I have no problem with temporary help, flood victims and the like. In some cases on the personal level, helping someone through some hard times, which I have done alot, they will pay you back. But when it goes overseas you are not getting it back. Just know you did something good, but you can't do good by creating a bigger bad. I mean, what happens when they run out of dirt to eat ? I see how some would take this as a joke, but I do not mean it as a joke. T

kittinSol -> RE: food (4/30/2008 8:52:33 AM)
On a different note, do you know what Nestle and Wyeth are doing with regards to the feeding of infants in developing countries?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: food (4/30/2008 9:14:51 AM)
From the little I have read on the subject, they are using the fear of HIV/AIDS to market baby formula. Yeah, it's fear mongering at it's worst.

philosophy -> RE: food (4/30/2008 9:15:58 AM)
FR ...all interesting points. i don't think many can disagree that education has a pivotal role in alleviating world poverty and hunger. However, is it possible that we in the west also need educating? Not about the basics of hygiene and healthcare, or how to most efficiently grow food, but about how our choices, our lifestyles affect those in other countries. A major factor in the current food staple crisis is the high cost of oil. The west have contributed to that cost. So, indirectly, our decisions have created a situation where a poor person in, say, Gambia is starving. It's a global economy, for good or ill....knowing how we participate in it, consciously and unconsciously, surely will benefit everyone. Some have suggested that my choice of the word 'responsibility' is in error. i believe it is arguable that our ignorance of how the global economy works makes it our responsibility. We make choices that have consequences. Those consequences are our responsibility.

LaTigresse -> RE: food (4/30/2008 9:20:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7372393.stm ....what responsibility to we, the world community, have towards those affected by the rise in world food prices? Call me a cold hearted bitch but,I feel no responsibility at all. With a constantly increasing world population it is inevitable that there will be suffering in areas that are unable to overcome their hardships. We cannot change their governments priorities. Then again, I don't see death as a terrible thing either. For many, it apparently would be a blessing.

philosophy -> RE: food (4/30/2008 9:25:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse We cannot change their governments priorities. ....if it was just down to single governments and their decisions your position would be inarguably true. But when the big players use the WTO and the GATT talks to manipulate the world market to their favour, then the playing field is skewed. Gambia simply doesn't have the clout to prevent, say, Germany or the US rigging the world market in their favour. If by doing so, in order to make sure coffee or other luxury goodsis readily available, we inadvertantly make it difficult for a poor country to procure the staples of life, don't we bear some responsibility?

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