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suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 9:23:04 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Suicide attacks are wrong, correct?

But are they? The failure of assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler could be put down to the fact that the would be assassins wished to survive. Would anyone care to argue that a suicide attack on Hitler that was successful would have been a morally bad thing?

Many I believe, would argue that assassinating Hitler would have been a good thing (disregarding that his increasing eccentricities may have been helpful to the Allies) in that Germany may have been thereby knocked out of the war altogether and the Holocaust stopped as cooler German heads analysed the declining situation and opted for negotiation.

So then, suicide attacks are OK, depending on their target? But not many would agree with that - innocent people who got caught up at Bali and in Israel and in London are not on the same level as Adolf Hitler.

But consider that the attempted assassinations of Hitler were borne out of desperation and the frustration of not being able to otherwise influence events - and then consider the desperation and frustration alike of today's suicide bombers watching their people suffer and being powerless otherwise to resist. Yes, they ought to be plotting against our leaders, but our leaders are not available as targets whilst we are, and like it or not, since we elect our leaders we are identified with them and the policies they pursue.

"I look forward to an orderly election, which eliminates the need for a violent bloodbath" as Kang (or Kodos) said with such eloquence.

Which isnt to say we ought to kow-tow to terrorists, (aka freedom fighters at one time), but rather that we ought to choose wisely the people whose ideas will represent our nations to the world and whose policies may generate still more desperate, frustrated people with nothing to lose, to take the only action they might have available to them.

But its OK. We will choose the same old, usual suspects I'm sure. And spend another few years bemoaning the choice for this or that reason. And gladly receive the tidings of our leaders that suicide attacks on us are not their fault nor even ours, but because those damnable foreigners are fanatics.

E

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 9:49:51 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Some suicide attacks are wrong. The purposeful killing of innocents is despicable.

However their effectiveness can’t be denied.

There is always a choice…do I bomb a Shite funeral or a military convoy of the enemy.

Do I fly an empty plane into the Pentagon or do I purposely take women and children with me.

Do I try to bomb parliament or do I blow up a subway full of people…some of whom agree with my cause.

Do I attack occupying forces or do I take over a school then kill children for the cause.


No LadyEllen there is no noble cause or justification worth the above.

Butch

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 9:56:18 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		The true horror of war and terrorism is that neither are ever justified, but that they are justifiable to the factions that partake in them. Everyone thinks they are the "Good Guy".

Which is, of course, complete and utter bollocks.


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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 10:13:40 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		 Hi kittinSol

I do know that "OUR" side kills innocents too. But we don't purposely target children and innocents. At least as a comparison we are the good guys next to them.

Reasons for a war are one thing that can and should be debated but how that war is pursued and the tactics used or even more important.

Butch

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 10:16:49 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Depends on whom is the target.
 
The best way to stop evil is to take one's money out of the bank. Wars are financed by bankers. If they have no money, they cannot finance a war.
 
Hitler was a puppet. He was financed by foreign (mainly USA) banks. Had he been murdered, those financers would have put another puppet in his place. His death would have had little impact.
 
Politicians are part of an oligarchy related by blood. There is no democracy. There are only the many heads of the hydra. Same old, same old; even when an unknown is chosen.

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 10:43:05 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Suicide attacks are wrong, correct?


Suicide attacks are a tactic. The wrong would come in as to why they are being done, and it depends on which side you are on.

quote:


But are they? The failure of assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler could be put down to the fact that the would be assassins wished to survive. Would anyone care to argue that a suicide attack on Hitler that was successful would have been a morally bad thing?


Not at all. The death of one to save millions? Sorry but that is a no brainer.

quote:


Many I believe, would argue that assassinating Hitler would have been a good thing (disregarding that his increasing eccentricities may have been helpful to the Allies) in that Germany may have been thereby knocked out of the war altogether and the Holocaust stopped as cooler German heads analysed the declining situation and opted for negotiation.


There is good and bad in all things. If there had not been a holocaust, there may have been other world changing events that may not have occured.
quote:


So then, suicide attacks are OK, depending on their target? But not many would agree with that - innocent people who got caught up at Bali and in Israel and in London are not on the same level as Adolf Hitler.


Innocent? You mean non-combatants. Sometimes they are seen as a loss as well in war. Said to say you have those that can make war, and those that can make peace. You do not mix who does what.
quote:


But consider that the attempted assassinations of Hitler were borne out of desperation and the frustration of not being able to otherwise influence events - and then consider the desperation and frustration alike of today's suicide bombers watching their people suffer and being powerless otherwise to resist. Yes, they ought to be plotting against our leaders, but our leaders are not available as targets whilst we are, and like it or not, since we elect our leaders we are identified with them and the policies they pursue.


Why is the Hitler example being used? You could use many figures that caused a lot of death and destruction.

quote:


"I look forward to an orderly election, which eliminates the need for a violent bloodbath" as Kang (or Kodos) said with such eloquence.

Which isnt to say we ought to kow-tow to terrorists, (aka freedom fighters at one time), but rather that we ought to choose wisely the people whose ideas will represent our nations to the world and whose policies may generate still more desperate, frustrated people with nothing to lose, to take the only action they might have available to them.

But its OK. We will choose the same old, usual suspects I'm sure. And spend another few years bemoaning the choice for this or that reason. And gladly receive the tidings of our leaders that suicide attacks on us are not their fault nor even ours, but because those damnable foreigners are fanatics.

E


Regardless as to whether they are freedom fighters, or terrorist, if they have declared war upon my country and attack my countrymen, they are an enemy. The morally correct thing to do, and is an imperative of nature, is to survive.

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 11:47:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi kittinSol

I do know that "OUR" side kills innocents too. But we don't purposely target children and innocents.
Butch


Sorry, but that is simply untrue.

The west may not have fired the weapons that killed a mother and her children in Gaza today, but we surely aimed them.

We are just as evil as any other group one might care to name, and possibly because we choose to do our evil covertly whilst complaining about the evil of others, we are the most evil. And we are far and away the most foolish, to believe for one minute that what we sow we shall not reap.

But that wasnt really the point of the thread. The point was to indicate that we the electorate shall be accountable and ought not to wonder at hatred and violence directed at us as citizens of the west, when we choose leaders who pursue policies which perpetuate and promote the suffering of others. Blaming the reaction against us as evil, when we ourselves perpetuate and promote evil, is foolish.

And more than that, the entrenchment of hostility and suspicion, alongside the evil done in our names and with our endorsement at the ballot box can end ultimately only in one way.

E

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:16:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I guess we shall just have to disagree LadyEllen...my country...I don't know about yours... does not purposely target children... How many schools have we held hostage and shot fleeing children in the back.

Granted we are wrong in this war and innocent  people are dieing because of our terrible decisions... but we are not targeting innocents ourselves.

I do also agree that we as nations of elected officials are responsible but it is understandable considering what started the war.

But my daughter and grandchildren are not responsible and they are still targets by religious fanatics...

There are times when the minority is right and the majority wrong... lets hope we can change that in the case of this foolish war.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/28/2008 12:24:50 PM >

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:27:00 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
But my daughter and grandchildren are not responsible and they are still targets by religious fanatics...
Really?
 
So pray tell: how many times have they been targetted and had a suicide bomber going off next to them? I suppose they survived because of their bomb proof vests?

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:29:31 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		My country Butch, has been there and done that, and worse. It makes it all the more worrisome that we keep doing the same things, but then our leaders have us as much befuddled over right and wrong, expedient and non-expedient as yours do the US electorate - and expect there to be a different outcome. One cannot complain at being bitten, when one ties a dog to a tree and beats it, and one cannot expect a second dog to not do the same when its his turn.

And my country also started this war for what its worth. What has gone on since then is not down to some evil plot that resides in the heart of every Muslim, but to the twists and turns of what first our leaders found to be expedient and non-expedient and now what your leaders find to be so, and the rather easy to predict reactions of those they choose to tie up and beat.

If we keep doing what we have always done, we will always get what we always got.

E

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:31:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Rule

We are all targets in the US... tell me were there children on those planes?... I do travel with my family... and have traveled those routes... could have been me you or our children...

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/28/2008 12:34:03 PM >

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:33:35 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Tie me to a tree LadyEllen...lol.. I'd like that... but I would not kill a child that came in my reach... There is a fundamental difference between terrorists and you and me.

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:40:41 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Tie me to a tree LadyEllen...lol.. I'd like that... but I would not kill a child that came in my reach... There is a fundamental difference between terrorists and you and me.


Not at all. Either of us would kill a child without a moment's hesitation, if the circumstances were right. They'd have to be pretty extreme circumstances of course, but then they'd be on a par with the circumstances of those who threaten our children without hesitation.

Its in our power, presumably at least, to either lessen the severity of others' circumstances which cause them to abandon moral discernment, or to do nothing.

Doing nothing is not an option, unless one day you wish yourself or your children to be committing the genocide, or indeed standing in the gas chambers, which will be the ultimate end game of all this if we dont change direction soon.

E

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:45:23 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We are all targets in the US...

Paranoia. Targetted by street gangs and muggers, yes, but that is it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
tell me were there children on those planes?...

There were only two planes (93 and 175) and both made safe landings. 11 and 77 never existed. Simple slight of hand - and Bush is not even a magician. I suspect one of them magicians in Vegas could have done even better.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I do travel with my family... and have traveled those routes... could have been me you or our children...
Better not get into a car nor cross the street. And do carry a lightning conductor, even on a clear day.

< Message edited by Rule -- 4/28/2008 12:47:59 PM >

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:45:41 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		We don't need suicide attacks.
What you do is plant car bombs in Pakistan and al qeada's going to be blamed for them.
Fight fire with fire.
Then at a certain point al qeada can't feel safe in Pakistan anymore because the people start to rat them out.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/28/2008 12:47:30 PM >

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:45:42 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I do understand what you are saying LadyEllen... and i guess it is for others to decide the right and wrong of it... But I would never kill a child.. I think I would kill myself first.

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:47:44 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		Suicide attacks are always wrong regardless of the target. Those committing suicide attacks would be better off retaining the skills to take the fight to the enemy rather than killing themselves and loosing a vital resource. Bombs are disposable but the knowledge and training of weapons and tactics isn’t. If people had only been carrying out suicide attacks in Iraq and elsewhere instead of just leaving IED’s I doubt they’d be many militants left there now.

Suicide attacks prove believe in your objectives which also has the opposite negative effect on the people they are aimed at because those people realise the bombers are fighting for a just course in their mind, which is hard to compete with.

I don’t know if fox news still refers to them as homicide bombers which always made me laugh. The fox new corporation was never allowed to admit or report suicide attacks in a way that showed the desire and belief of enemy suicide bombers. Instead it had to emphasise the death and destruction of innocent civilians. The problem with that approach is: no one ever asks why a doctor feels so strongly that he’ll kill himself and others in the fight.  

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:54:37 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
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Status: offline 		What is and is not acceptable has always been a matter of ranking values against each other.
Is it right to kill a man?
How abot in self defense?
How about to defend another?
How about to recover property they stole are in the process of stealing?
How about to prevent them from getting away from the scene of a rape they committed?
How about to prevent them from getting away from the scene of a a murder they commited?
How about to prevent... from the scene of a car jacking?

Each of these cases ballances one value against another.

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 12:59:51 PM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
What is and is not acceptable has always been a matter of ranking values against each other.
Is it right to kill a man?


How abot in self defense? Yes
How about to defend another? Yes
How about to recover property they stole are in the process of stealing? No
How about to prevent them from getting away from the scene of a rape they committed? No
How about to prevent them from getting away from the scene of a a murder they commited? No
How about to prevent... from the scene of a car jacking? No


< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/28/2008 1:01:09 PM >

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RE: suicide attacks - 4/28/2008 1:05:06 PM   
MistressKali1


Posts: 8
Joined: 9/21/2007
Status: offline 		''Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children."
The above is a direct quote from "Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey" a survey conducted by researchers Les Roberts, Riyadh Lafta, Richard Garfield, Jamal Khudhairi, and Gilbert Burnham.
Findings indicated 100,000 more Iraqis died than would have been expected to die, with 84% of the deaths caused by coalition forces, and 95% of the deaths due to air strikes and artillery. These figures do not include information from the city of Falluja. The researchers felt the totals would be distorted if the Falluja deaths were included in the total.

If the people of Iraq and their children are to be held indirectly responsible for the death of Americans, who I might add were alleged to be killed by not citizens of Iraq but Afganistan, then you too must accept responsiblity for the death of their children.

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