RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 5:33:16 AM)

i have a great uncle who was in prison.  



sub4hire -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 5:39:40 AM)

I think we all have great something or others who did things we wouldn't consider on the up and up today.

After all the KKK was a social club back then.  It wasn't all hatred. 

In any event if I was embarrassed by what my 5th cousin twice removed did I'd have bigger problems than them.




cjan -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 6:11:39 AM)

I, of course, agree that we are not, individually, responsible for the past or accountable for anyones' action other than our own.

I'm thinking, however, that since this topic has come up, and the issue of personal responsibility, it might be an opportunity to examine our own attitudes regarding prejudices and conditioning.

I grew up in Chicago which is a great town, a town of neighborhoods. The neighborhoods are, to a large extent ,composed of ethnocentric and ,in some cases, racial groups. That makes for an interesting city with obviious benefits but, also, has certain consequences. One of those consequences is prejudice that is passed from generation to generation and is deeply rooted in the social fabric.

I was surprised, years later, to find how deeply rooted some of these prejudices may be, ecven to the extent that one may be unaware that one has lingering vestiges of them.

For example. I remember as a young man, on my first visit to Europe, being in a cafe in Paris and struggling to place my order with the stereotypical ly rude Parisian waiter who refused to acknowledge that he understood perfectle well what I wanted. A well dressed black man took a seat at an empty table next to mine and I noticed the thought cross my mind that this black man was gonna have a helluva time getting coffee or a bite to eat. Yes, I was naive. Of course, the black gentleman spoke perfect French , but I learned a lesson.

Another example is how, even today, if a black person happens to cut me off in traffic, the thought that jumps into my mind is a racial curse. I understand that, as humans, we do not control the thoughts that come to mind. We may , however , chose our words, responses and actions.

To me, it's useful to keep in mind that I have to be alert to thoughts and attitudes that spring up, as well as be aware that prejudice, unexamined , can cause havoc.



kittinSol -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 6:21:16 AM)

I understand the original poster's shock at discovering such an aspect of her own family's history, and I understand her ambiguous feelings towards it too, even though she has no personal responsibility in this whatsoever. In the end, birth is an accident and we cannot help which background we are born into.

I am bothered, however, by all the relativising towards the KKK . These people are dangerous, they are violent, they are  terrorists whose organisation is hopefully being eradicated out of circulation. There's no reason to say 'oh, but they're not all that bad, really'. There ARE that bad: who's to gain from tempering their crazy rhetoric? The KKK is a perfect example of when society should not compromise.



Termyn8or -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 8:48:59 AM)

Actually the KKK was not a social organisation at the start. They started out fighting injustices perpetrated on them by the north after the civil war.

At first mainly they hanged judges. Judges who made ridiculous orders that caused many foreclosures, much land changed hands. Also for some reason the judges syarted giving very preferential treatment to Blacks, even murderers and rapists, so they had to hang some of them as well.

Over the years the Klan got taken over by radical bigots. That's when it got bad. In the beginning there was no need for burning crosses, they had rope.

If you think the south was treated well after the civil war you need this property in AZ, yup, with the beach. Find some old timers down in Savannah and mention General Sherman.

If you happen to catch the Springer rerun with the "Klan" as guests you saw nothing. Those people are a joke and I'd bet that they not not even racist, and are being paid to discredit the Klan. If you watched it you would know. Their arguments were very poor, in fact counterproductive.

Thing is I can debate anything. If I was in that show I would've handled it completely differently. I can actually argue against my own point of view. But then as a byproduct of objective thinking, if I am arguing for my point of view I can be better prepared because I have an idea of what is going to be thrown at me.

At any rate I am not a bigot for two major reasons. First of all the old stereotypes do not apply. But they did at one time, at least some of them. As the culture gap closes, so does everything else. Another reason is that my perception of superiority it different.

You can be superior in one thing and totally lacking in another.

Basically these old attitudes do not fit. But at one point in histroy they probably did, otherwise racist groups would not exist. And don't forget that other races have racist groups, but it is only the white ones that rate being called a hate group.

But the KKK of today is IMO an embarrassment to the White race. A ritualistic and flamboyant bunch who might preach superiority of the White race, but who I doubt actually posess any.

There are realities in life that make the old attitude inappropriate. Things have changed.

In the beginning the KKK was a group of vigilantes who were watching their friends, families and communities destroyed by what is know as the "reconstruction". Look at Iraq, that's another example of our brand of reconstruction.

People fuck it up no matter what. Here we had one of the best formed governments in the world, but then half of the states wanted to seceed. Why ? It wasn't slavery, not totally, there were aready states in the south that had abolished slavery.

What really happened was that the government decided to perpetrate something that could be termed "redistribution of wealth". Turns out it worked, didn't it.

Throughout history, when you dig just a bit, you find that wars don't just happen, they are caused. Then there is sometimes a backlash that causes another war. All part of the game.

I have more on this, but this is not the place for it.

T



kittinSol -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 9:02:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

At first mainly they hanged judges. Judges who made ridiculous orders that caused many foreclosures, much land changed hands.



So, because some judge made a decision that pissed off somebody, they'd call the KKK and have him lynched? Well, that's pretty cool, isn't it?

quote:



If you think the south was treated well after the civil war you need this property in AZ, yup, with the beach. Find some old timers down in Savannah and mention General Sherman.



The civil war ended in 1865: don't tell me people down in South Carolina or where it is are still feeling sorry for themselves all these years later. How often I hear that the black people of America ought to get over their ancestors' slavery because it was 'such a long time ago'. Double standards, or what?!

quote:



If you happen to catch the Springer rerun with the "Klan" as guests you saw nothing.



Censor Springer out of your life: it can only lead to an improvement.

quote:



Another reason is that my perception of superiority it different.

You can be superior in one thing and totally lacking in another.



Talk about your personal superiority all you like: the worst it can lead to is other people laughing at you. It's when you claim, as it's your habit to, that one 'ethnic group' is superior to another that the block button starts looking like an attractive option.

quote:



Basically these old attitudes do not fit. But at one point in histroy they probably did, otherwise racist groups would not exist. And don't forget that other races have racist groups, but it is only the white ones that rate being called a hate group.



Sweet, sweet delusions of the American white man - I shan't even begin to dissect the above paragraph. Its monstrosity speaks for itself.

quote:



But the KKK of today is IMO an embarrassment to the White race. A ritualistic and flamboyant bunch who might preach superiority of the White race, but who I doubt actually posess any.



There we go! Now you're being honest at least. Man, oh man...



LaTigresse -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 11:18:54 AM)

I've got a whole bunch of colourful characters in my family. The way I look at it, I will only allow myself to gloat over the achievers as much as I allow myself to feel guilt or shame over the loosers.

Neither one can I take any credit or responsibility for.



Marc2b -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 12:20:04 PM)

You’ll find good and bad in any family history. When we started researching our family history we were dismayed to find some of our ancestors sitting on the porch of the plantation, sipping mint juleps, and watching their darkies pick cotton. But we also discovered a relative who joined an abolition society and became a conductor on the Underground Railroad. He made nineteen journeys into the south helping slaves to escape to Canada. Eighteen of the journeys were successful. The nineteenth was not. He was captured and hanged. Whenever I find myself having one of those moments where you have to choose between what is convenient and what is right, I try to remember him and I ask myself, "he risked his life to do what was right, am I not willing to risk less?"



sub4hire -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 12:39:32 PM)

I'd hate for anyone here to actually learn something.  However the history channel did a spot on the KKK..a few years back.  Here is a link with much info on the KKK...including some of the negro klan members.

http://www.kkklan.com/



kittinSol -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 12:42:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I'd hate for anyone here to actually learn something.  However the history channel did a spot on the KKK..a few years back.  Here is a link with much info on the KKK...including some of the negro klan members.

http://www.kkklan.com/



You are fucking kidding? What kind of a link is this?! It's from a KKK subsidiary!



sub4hire -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 12:55:33 PM)

How else are you going to do research on them?  If you don't ask them?  The history channel thought they were good enough to ask, because much of what is on that website was on the documentary.

So, you can do a documentary on me without talking to me?  Or learning anything about me?


If you don't think the history channel is valid you're not going to listen to the people they talked to.  If you think they are, you will.  Simple really. 



kittinSol -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 1:36:21 PM)

Investigative journalism requires more than simply peaking at the subject's propaganda and regurgitating it as if it were Gospel [8|] . Otherwise, you're just falling prey to PR. Which is all there is to the site you linked so generously, except that the KKK is so full of cretinous brutes they're not even capable of clever media manipulation.




slaveboyforyou -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 1:40:55 PM)

quote:

Otherwise, you're just falling prey to PR. Which is all there is to the site you linked so generously, except that the KKK is so full of cretinous brutes they're not even capable of clever media manipulation.


Yes they are full of clowns.  Which is why they are completely unimportant.  The Klan of 2008 is not the Klan of 1956.  They don't have any power, and they should be ignored.  When people show up to protest these retards, they play right into their hands.  They want people to show up and scream at them.  They form those rallies because they like attention.  They are complete losers with nothing going on in their lives, and it makes them feel important.  The best thing to do when they show up is let them have their rally to an empty street. 



SeeksOnlyOne -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 1:48:47 PM)

heck no telling how many of my kin were in the kkk....so what.....

the kkk had and has folks with good intentions and folks with bad ones.....like any other group of folks......



kittinSol -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 2:07:16 PM)

I agree with you to a certain extent, slaveboy, but it doesn't mean that we have to exonerate the present KKK from what the organisation did in the past. They're diminished, but the beast can rise from its cinders. Vigilance can do no harm after all.



slaveboyforyou -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 2:33:52 PM)

quote:

I agree with you to a certain extent, slaveboy, but it doesn't mean that we have to exonerate the present KKK from what the organisation did in the past. They're diminished, but the beast can rise from its cinders. Vigilance can do no harm after all.


No, I don't think we should exhonerate them at all of the past.  But I think you have to look through the world from the perspective of people in the past when you study history.  I was born in 1975.  I see the world through the eyes of someone that is a Gen X'er who grew up in a middle class home in a small city in the 1980's.  My father was college educated, and we never went without anything or lacked for an education. 

I can't pass judgment on someone that lived in 1925 with no education living a poverty level existence.  I was shocked when I heard that my great grandfather was in the Klan.  But I listened to my grandmother when she explained it.  He was a World War I veteran that came back to West Virginia and mined coal.  He was not a educated, worldly person.  He joined an organization that he believed would uphold the values of his community.  I can't pass judgment on people in the past like this.  If I or you had been in the same circumstances, who knows what we would have done.  I try to be objective when I study history as to the motives of common people during those times.  You have to do that to be fair to their memory. 



kiwisub12 -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 2:49:48 PM)

Oh I am SO much better than all of you !!!!   My father told me that we were descended from the kings of Ireland!!!!    
No klanners in my family tree! [:D]

Of course, i'm not betting against the occasional highwayman, or fence. We always were innovative. lol

We are not the sum of our ancestors. We carry their genes , but not their guilt - real or imagined - and are free to make of them (the genes) what we will.   Living well is the best revenge!



windchymes -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 3:17:12 PM)

I had a great aunt who reportedly ran a bordello somewhere back in the 30's.  I think it's kinda cool, but hey, most of us have colorful characters in our family tree.  I wouldn't feel too guilty about a KKK member in the family. 



Hippiekinkster -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 3:24:06 PM)

My uncle Willi on my father's side was an SS Captain. He evidently spent much of the war as a POW in Colorado. Most likely I had stateside relatives with pro-German and/or Nazi sentiments.

Has nothing to do with me.



MastrVran -> RE: OMG: My great uncle was in the KKK! (4/24/2008 4:31:14 PM)

Not aware of any of the KKK in my family tree. However from a childs perspective at the time, I can tell you that I only saw good things from the KKK in the area I grew up in.

We had a skating rink that was run by a high ranking member of the KKK in my state. (Info related by my parents at a later date). He was supposedly once offered the highest post but declined do to his being needed where he was.

Here was the interesting thing, the skating rink was segregated for the whole time I grew up in 60's and early into the 70s. On the outside of the building was a large billboard with a long list of thous shalt nots on it. One of them, was that no negros were allowed. However, almost every item there..and there were over 20, dealt with things like, no smoking, no drinking, no cussing, hair length, dress codes, and an assortment of other things I didnt care about or do. You can say the KKK was a bunch of ignorant animals or anything you wish to call them. But at that time in history, and in my home neighborhood, the one sure fire safe place for your kids to be, was skating at that rink. No one ever caused a problem there untill later when outsiders forced him to close and caused a big problem.

Do I think the KKK and what it stood for are good things? No. But as a kid, I knew there was no better place to skate. I guess if I had been there in the 1920's I might have joined them. By the time I was old enough, it had changed and times had changed to the point where there was no reason anyone should join them. Being biased and predjudiced just isnt a good reason to join a group and members being ignorant and stupid does not make for a good group to be part of.

Just a different viewpoint from someone who saw a different side of the klan, at least at that time.

MV




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