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Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:03:16 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		The High Court today ruled against the Serious Fraud Office stating that their decision to close an investigation into bribery in a Saudi arms deal invited "outrage".

In 1985, the Thatcher government agreed a £43billion arms deal for 100 fighters, supplied by BAE (British Aerospace).  The deal was overshadowed by the suspicion that BAE had paid Prince Bandar several hundred million pounds to sign on behalf of Saudi Arabia. 

Flash forward a few years and the case against BAE and the Prince is more solid.  But prosecutors close the investigation - at the urging of Tony Blair - because threats have been made to withdraw Saudi intelligence, which is vital to fighting terrorism.

We hear so much about the corrupt practices in developing countries and revile them for their seemingly endemic corruption but how can Britain, the EU and the world complain when the OECD regulations they post up as a condition of loans, aid, debt relief and trade are blatantly ignored?  Let's try and remember this the next time we criticise overseas governments - they're all fucking at it!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/10/bae.armstrade


< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/10/2008 12:04:54 PM >
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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:20:13 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		BAE is Britain's biggest exporter and a major player in the North West economy; they will not be taken to task.

I worked for BAE a while back and signed a contract to not divulge any information that may threaten the success of its operations.

Without going into too much detail, BAE and the British government will do what it takes to sell anything to anyone where there's profit in it.

Edited to add: 'shouldn't come as a surprise.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/10/2008 12:21:19 PM >

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:28:07 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		You're right NG, it isn't a surprise its just that it will be conveniently forgotten when corruption rears it's head over with Johnny Foreigner.  You know: our corruption is simple pragmatism, theirs is a sign of moral turpitude. 

Though I must say, I didn't think the anti-corruption campaigners would get this enquiry re-opened and now it looks almost certain that they will.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:30:29 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
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Status: offline 		Seeks is coming he he he he he eh

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:32:44 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
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Status: offline 		'All correct, Reality. We're adept in matters of hypocrisy, though; what other nation has been so proficient in presenting itself as docile, while mauling all sorts of foreign pies behind the scenes?

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:34:31 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Seeks is coming he he he he he eh



Finally eh. You must be beside yourself.

_____________________________

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:39:57 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
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Status: offline 		Yes I am rarther exhausted and feeling a little faint.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:40:22 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		Glazed your knuckles, seeks?

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:50:04 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		I'm trying to weigh up where this lad's coming from.

The wig fetish is mystifying, but to brazenly announce that he's knocking one out on the back of a thread concerning bungs and aeroplanes, is taking the bizarre to new, dizzy heights.

To be fair to Seeks, I know this occasion is of monumental importance to him; in the spirit of 'every dog has its day', I tip my hat to Seeks for persistence alone.

Savour it, Seeks, you've no idea where the next one's coming from.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:56:35 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe for his next photo seeks could try a bedouin headdress?  It would help when he goes down there to critique their end of the deal.   If one of our largest companies is being hauled through teh courts on corruption charges, its safe to assume a number of smaller players are equally guilty. Still no answer on why just yet but I'm sure the famous double standard will be in full effect.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 12:59:18 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		(What about a turban? He could then call himself "Sikhswomanslave" hahahaha. I couldn't resist it, sorry  .)

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 1:12:00 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks


We hear so much about the corrupt practices in developing countries and revile them for their seemingly endemic corruption but how can Britain, the EU and the world complain when the OECD regulations they post up as a condition of loans, aid, debt relief and trade are blatantly ignored?  Let's try and remember this the next time we criticise overseas governments - they're all fucking at it!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/10/bae.armstrade



Isnt the difference though, that we have a country in which
a) we got to find out about this case in the first place
b) lots of agencies and people were pissed enough about it to pursue it
c) the agencies and people who pursued it, didnt get bribed to shut up or get "disappeared"
d) eventually the agencies and people who pursued it, are getting somewhere with it

Not a bad comparison with others - albeit that it occurred in the first instance doesnt put us anywhere near the top of the league on open, honest commercial dealing. Although we have to remember that he who put the kybosh on the investigation is the same one who deceived the country into the worst strategic blunder since 1956.

E

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 1:40:22 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		RL, i agree with you corruption and backhanders does take place, i said as much on anther thread. I am really pleased the high court found as they did, but fear nothing will ever happen. I would love to see Mark Thatchers deals investigated.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article481489.ece

Seeks, please ditch the wig, you look amazingly similar to great aunt lil, and she passed away years ago.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 1:42:28 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Right I've recovered now so here are a few facts, inconvenient little trifles I know....
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11658
quote:

US firm operating in China
CHINA: Lucent Execs face bribery charges in China and Saudi Arabia


http://grozdan.blogspot.com/2007/02/siemens-needed-38-m-for-bribes-in-saudi.html
quote:

now the Germans
...specifies that a $50 million bribe to individuals in Saudi Arabia....
.That is just a fraction of the $545 million approximated as spent on bribes during the past seven years by Siemens top executives


http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/history/1977/houseprt.html
quote:

pre amble to a US bill to make bribery illegal he he he he he
More than 400 US corporations have admitted making questionable or illegal payments.
The companies have reported paying out well in excess of $300 million in corporate funds to foreign government officials, politicians, and political parties. These corporations have included some of the largest and most widely held public companies in the United States; over 117 of them rank in the top Fortune 500 industries.

Sectors of industry typically involved are: drugs and health care; oil and gas production and services; food products; aerospace, airlines and air services; and chemicals.


So you see everybody's at it and only the whimpering wonders in the UK, supported by Reality and NG, who relish following up this kind of enquiry.If BAe collapses no doubt Saudi will still get arms but many oop north will have lost their jobs.
Still Reality and NG should be happy, so thats OK then
PS anyone remember Lockheed and Holland and the Starfighter Jet ?
Millions changed hands there.

I am now going to the pub to quaff some Everards (thats not me any more)
Tiger Bitter. It brings out the beast in me.

I expect nothing will come of the court decision.
Note how the emphasis has shifted onto withdrawel of saudi co operation in the intelligence sphere.
Where is Tony Blair when we need him.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/10/2008 1:48:16 PM >

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 4:24:12 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Wots happened to the whimpering wonders?
Surely not lost for an irrelevant word, or more likely a thousand words, of idealistic nonsense.

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 4:43:08 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I don't know who the whimpering wonders are, but maybe they're avoiding the splashback from Aunt Lil's five knuckle shuffle?  Personally, I've had cocktails but not enough to blind me to the fact that you've condoned this crime on the basis that other people do it.  Does that mean there's a free for all on all crimes now?

You've ignored the question of trade deals and aid in developing countries being awarded on the basis of good governance.  Remember that there are hospitals closing down in some countries, simply because they have done what you consider acceptable for the UK and others to do.  To anyone with a mote of decency that is unacceptable.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 4:56:00 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well Reality let me put it this way, if you enter the ring in  a 10 contestant free for all and only you obey the Marquess of Queensbury's rules then the certain consequence is that you will get  your arse kicked..
Thats a metaphor Reality, thats what that is. lol

Now you might enjoy a good arse kicking  and I wish you well,  but it wont pay the rent.
Your hospital point just lost me. Have another go

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 5:02:31 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		But if you persuade the referee to let you kick the other guy but penalise him for kicking you, you are a cheat and shouldn't masquerade as a boxer.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/10/2008 5:54:30 PM >

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 11:29:52 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Isnt the difference though, that we have a country in which
a) we got to find out about this case in the first place
b) lots of agencies and people were pissed enough about it to pursue it
c) the agencies and people who pursued it, didnt get bribed to shut up or get "disappeared"
d) eventually the agencies and people who pursued it, are getting somewhere with it

Not a bad comparison with others - albeit that it occurred in the first instance doesnt put us anywhere near the top of the league on open, honest commercial dealing. Although we have to remember that he who put the kybosh on the investigation is the same one who deceived the country into the worst strategic blunder since 1956.

E


Sorry for not replying sooner but I was amply refreshed last night and thought it better to wait. 

Seems to me that these campaigners owe their success to the support of The Guardian - not exactly lots of people and agencies - but we shouldn't have to wait for a left-leaning media organisation to uphold the law:  we have a well-funded system in place to do so, which should be and claims to be, above outside influence.

No, Alan Rusbridger hasn't been disappeared but remember the courts recently gagged that SAS whistleblower over extraordinary rendition, so clearly as a country we are not above "disappearing" folk when it is deemed necessary.  We don't know what we don't know.  It's obviously safe to assume that other illegal acts are carried out to benefit British companies and individuals about which we will never hear a whisper.

Inevitably, the focus falls on Tony Blair and rightly so, although the original mess occurred under Thatcher and directly benefitted her son.  Tony's sexing up of dossiers hasn't endeared him to the Establishment very much and I'd guess that this latest stain on his name has passed through partly because of his treatment of senior civil servants.

So although the courts and the press have collared the executive on this occasion, I remain doubtful that this is not simply the tip of a very big iceberg - one we will never know entirely.  It could even be argued that this expose appears precisely to encourage us in our belief in the supposed integrity of our public servants, which I personally believe is a far worse crime.  What are the odds of getting that through court?

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RE: Corruption in the UK pt 2 - 4/10/2008 11:31:46 PM   
RealityLicks


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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

RL, i agree with you corruption and backhanders does take place, i said as much on anther thread. I am really pleased the high court found as they did, but fear nothing will ever happen. I would love to see Mark Thatchers deals investigated.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article481489.ece



It does look a little like Mark's days are numbered.  Fingers crossed and thanks for that link.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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