UK gun control - Northern Ireland (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:02:23 AM)

Amazing but short interview last night on TV, with the supposed head of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), the largest of the loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.

Their main enemies, the republican IRA/Sinn Fein were required to prove that their weapons had been decommissioned. The UDA meanwhile have kept theirs, citing the threat from dissident elements of the IRA who have chosen not to take advantage of the peace treaty.

But the leader of the UDA also made another point to support their retaining their weapons. In his view, they can provide more efficient policing of their neighbourhoods than the Police Service of Northern Ireland, in relation to the kind of crime on the UK mainland - drug gangs, prostitution rings, people traffickers et al.

Notwithstanding that groups like the UDA are involved in all elements of crime - the means by which they are funded, it struck me that he likely had a point. I dont believe anyone, however much a hard case they might be, is likely to try anything over there unless they have a penchant for having their kneecaps blown off.

So I got to thinking why he can make such a claim - yes, they have weapons, yes, theyre hardened criminals and murderers themselves, but what they also have is a strong community which enables them and the people under their dubious style of protection, to know who is doing what and who is a stranger in their midst. Its very comparable to the Iraq situation where locals are being hired to provide community security.

On the mainland meanwhile, we have none of this. Our communities are such in name only - most people dont even know their neighbours, let alone the people in the next street. We have no weapons here, aside from those in the hands of serious and organised crime gangs whose only interest is crime. And we have a fluid society in which no one knows anyone, people come and go and no one knows whether someone belongs in a certain place or not - something with which mass immigration from all over the world doesnt help; everyone is deemed suspect and fear runs rampant, inhibiting contact between people still further.

Now no one would suggest that the streets of Belfast is some utopia, but I think they may have retained - through the most awful of mechanisms, something which we have lost - a sense of common unity and identity which I would love to find in my neighbourhood and my town. The problem being though, that they have retained these qualities in Ulster because of the need for them, in order to defend themselves - does it then require an outside threat to produce a coherent identity and unity as a response to it? The experience in Northern Ireland suggests so, as does the experience of WWII from what I've heard of it.

E




kittinSol -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:12:09 AM)

The UDA is a terrorist group - that they retained their weapons is a source of worry rather than joy. Who controls them? The UDA are a bunch of violent, fascist vigilantes, LadyE.

Northern Ireland's communities are close knit for a number of reasons, including the small, mostly rural, nature of its geography, as well as a long history of oppression of the catholic population by the english. Oppression always makes people get closer to one another against their common enemy. This, in turn, explains the sectarian divide.

I don't quite see how Northern Ireland's model is one to be aspired to in England - are you really that worried about your neighbours?




LadyEllen -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:20:48 AM)

I fear the background is obscuring the point KS - the question is how do we produce a community with unity and identity, unless there is an outside threat against which everyone will take common cause?

We dont want organisations like the UDA and we dont really want an outside threat. But we would benefit hugely from a better community.

E




seeksfemslave -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:35:45 AM)

Whatever the make up of the UDA, which I agree is unsavoury to say the least, if the report is true it shows that hard line approaches to Law and Order ought to work.
It is also true that people will unite to oppose what is seen as a common enemy.
So if you want to make multi culturalism work an invasion from outer space is required.

Unfortunately I believe that large parts of N Ireland are experiencing a lot of crime controlled by the UDA so maybe the spokesman was doing a bit of spinning.

See that No 2 terrorist our wonderful Judges have refused to deport because HE might be in danger in Jordan.
With decisions like that I say whats it all about Your 'onour.




LadyEllen -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:44:13 AM)

Oh yes Seeks - I think what they were referring to as policing was more about protecting their own turf. But as I said to KS, the point is that they have a more cohesive community than anywhere on the mainland, aside from small villages perhaps.

But is there no other way to achieve real community, than to have an outside threat against which all can unite? And you make the point with your extra terrestrial comment really, that because we are made up of people from all over the world and almost every culture, the "outside threat" methodology isnt ever going to work to produce common identity and common cause. So if we want real communities then there has to be found an internal means to bring them about.

E




LadyEllen -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 5:50:08 AM)

Incidentally, my son was helping me to fold mailshots last night when this interview came on the TV.

I said to him "you see that guy? He's a terrorist. He's likely shot and murdered loads of people, or had them shot and murdered"

He replied, quite innocently "he doesnt have a turban though"

Great isnt it? Seems like the schools are doing their part well in ensuring that "terrorist" doesnt equal "anyone who looks vaguely Indian/Arabic".

E




Real0ne -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:04:57 AM)


The word terrorist should be wiped out from the dictionary;

Definition:
Terrorist - anyone who disagrees with ME.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

If it were not for "terrorists" like jefferson, washington, jackson and the gang america would not exist today.






seeksfemslave -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:05:29 AM)

My guess would be that in schools no mention whatsoever is made of the difficulties that have  occured as a consequence of multi culturalism..
I bet the different groups  still fight in the playground tho' he he he he he

Bit like the way the nasty history of our Monarchy was never mentioned, leastways not when I was at school.

LadyE I hope you are not standing for the local council.?
You know I like you but thats going too far.
Unless you change to support my views then I will vote for you, via mail, nobody will ever know I'm an outsider.In fact i will vote for you twice if that helps.




RealityLicks -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:09:19 AM)

Why is that the school's fault?

I think sometimes community falters when some people are asked to accept that their place in it is below the salt.  It may well be that to find a new sense of community, the people who controlled it previously are going to have to take on board the feelings of the people who are their neighbours. 

To go back to sectarianism and polarisation as founding precepts for communities, surely there are common enemies like property developers, road schemes and others which will affect everyone around which  common cause can be found?  There are elections coming up, so starting a drive to register voters of all parties might be a good one, too.




seeksfemslave -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:12:43 AM)

Why the schools fault?
You think lying by omission  is the academic way then ?

I expect you know that the major voting frauds that have recently come to light occured in constituencies with large immigrant communities and with Muslim councillors opposing one another.
Its their culture ennit ?




kittinSol -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:19:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Its their culture ennit ?



So much for building stronger, better communities aye?




seeksfemslave -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:22:45 AM)

At least you are speaking to me Kitten he he he he he
I thought I was getting the silent treatment.




kittinSol -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:23:51 AM)

I try to give people the chance to redeem themselves ;-) .




RealityLicks -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:26:54 AM)

As to voting scams, what about the long  history of gerry-mandering in NI and here in the mainland ?  What about homes for votes?  What about  your constant editing of messages to derail a topic?  As usual, you don't know what you're talking about and cover inadequacy with a dubious attempt at - well, I hesitate to call it charm because it's a bit sickly.




Owner59 -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 6:50:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I try to give people the chance to redeem themselves ;-) .


Hope springs internal....




seeksfemslave -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 7:14:15 AM)

Reality: at least I never attack the messenger.
Gerrymandering is usually done so that one group maintains or obtains advantage over another. So if all have been at it, well that doesnt auger well for multi culturalism does it?

This thread is basically about which approaches are likely to bring about stability in society so I have kept to the spirit of it by including the fact that creating a mixed society doesnt help at all.

The fact that I have said it before only proves  that what I say is true. lol




LadyEllen -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 7:45:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Why is that the school's fault?

I think sometimes community falters when some people are asked to accept that their place in it is below the salt.  It may well be that to find a new sense of community, the people who controlled it previously are going to have to take on board the feelings of the people who are their neighbours. 

To go back to sectarianism and polarisation as founding precepts for communities, surely there are common enemies like property developers, road schemes and others which will affect everyone around which  common cause can be found?  There are elections coming up, so starting a drive to register voters of all parties might be a good one, too.



Yes - we've seen that common enemies such as you mention (mobile phone aerials being a favourite) do galvanise people into a better sense of community - but again, this is an enemy from outside in a sense.

I'm interested in what can recreate community in the sense of common identity and overall commonalities of values, in a positive sense, in the absence of outside threat.

E




kittinSol -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 8:06:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm interested in what can recreate community in the sense of common identity and overall commonalities of values, in a positive sense, in the absence of outside threat.



The answer to that is quite simple, really: Coronation Street




Gwynvyd -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 8:10:16 AM)

I love you Brits.. I really do.. but some times.. I am a few handfuls of hair shorter at the end of the day by some posts. *smiles* folks here in "the colonies" do the same.. so *sighs*

Here is a good way to not only be safer.. but foster a sense of community.. not have to resort to Thugs to get it done.. and you do not have to ostersize any one ( even those damn immigrants ) [8|] to get it accomplished.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighbourhood_Watch_(UK

http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/neighbourhoodwatch/nwatch01.htm  this has all the info you need on getting one started.


http://www.mystreet.com/  map out your neighborhood, and keep track of whats going on. get to know your neighbors. Drop a paper with the link and instruction s in thier box after you set it up so they can join... foster your own community.


Around here when any of us say "something needs to be done" about "whatever" we realize we are offering to head it ourselves.. or at the very least find someone to do so. Nothing gets done unless *we* start it.

I hope this helps get you all motivated to round up folks in your town. I know our police orgs. ( = to the Home Office there) are *very helpful*

Gwyn,
who is all about citizen action




LadyEllen -> RE: UK gun control - Northern Ireland (4/10/2008 9:05:04 AM)

Yep Gwyn - my ex and I organised a neighbourhood watch scheme. We also organised putting a gate on the alleyway between the houses to stop drunks et al pissing there and we're both involved with local politics and I advise the police on trans matters.

Trouble is, its a thankless task. Youre up against suspicion, apathy and every wiseass waiting to pick holes in whatever you try to do for them, and of those who do involve themselves it becomes more about who's top dog than the aims of whatever cooperation it is.

E




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