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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 7:51:02 AM

Moloch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Yep, let's not get dewy eyed over Margeret Thatcher. She manipulated the unemployment figures 21 times and she still couldn't get it below 3 million. I know plenty of people that were put on invalidity benefit to get them off the unemplyed register under her regime. Thatcher also produced the first generation of school leavers that remained unemployed throughout their twenties and has children without ever having a job. Incidently, the rest of the EU didn't suffer the economic depths Thatcher's Britain did simply because Britain's economic ills were of her making.

I ended up working on continental Europe (I work for myself now) because working for British companies was shite, they paid shite, the conditions were shite and the holidays were shite and they expected you to be grateful and work harder for the privilege of being treated like shite.

Actaully I'm too old, too educated and too eperienced to get a job in Britain because an employer would actually think I might ask for what I'm worth.

LMAO thank you thats some funn stuff right here.

Sorry to heat about the job market in Britain.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 11:22:31 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Isn't the shortage of workers in construction a throwback to the last collapse in the industry - sometime in the 90's?

This is partly true but the decline set in before then. Many firms decided that it was cheaper to employ subcontractors, rather then keep the jobs " In House" i worked for a major construction company and apprenticeships started to become a thing of the past. Then when the late 80s boom came, there were not so many qualified personel about. After the crash in the early 90s 200,000 contruction jobs were lost in London alone, many leaving the industry never to go back.

Add to that the constant red tape from the EU and many self employed construction workers wont take on anyone else. Health and safety has gone to far, gas installation certificates is a good example. Not so long back everyone had to take this course at thier own expense, as well as lose time from work to do so. Twelve months later the regulations were altered and they all had to take a new course. More expense more loss of earnings. Its no wonder people turned to simpler things.

Like it or not cheap immigrant labour has only added to the mess, with many so called electricians not having a clue or having had the same type of apprentiship they would need in the UK.

As for the miners...Blame Scargill, they had already brought down one government and once he declared he was going to do it again, the writting was on the wall.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 4/1/2008 11:24:14 AM >

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 1:55:05 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Add to that the constant red tape from the EU and many self employed construction workers wont take on anyone else. Health and safety has gone to far, gas installation certificates is a good example. Not so long back everyone had to take this course at thier own expense, as well as lose time from work to do so. Twelve months later the regulations were altered and they all had to take a new course. More expense more loss of earnings. Its no wonder people turned to simpler things.

I suppose this explains why continentals don't have the same problem? Me thinks this is just Brits throwing the blame as per usual for their own short comings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Like it or not cheap immigrant labour has only added to the mess, with many so called electricians not having a clue or having had the same type of apprentiship they would need in the UK.

Thatcher destroyed the old type of apprenticeships in Britain and the current craft apprenticeships are pretty inadequate in comparison. I was teaching at the time and am well aware of what she did. I'm not sure from which country the immigrant labour comes from which you are claiming to be inadequate as most continental European countries still have traditional apprenticeships which Britain has got rid of for much shorter, less experienced based apprenticeships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
As for the miners...Blame Scargill, they had already brought down one government and once he declared he was going to do it again, the writting was on the wall.

A judicial enquiry into the 1972 and 1974 miners strikes found the miners had legitimate claims. In 1972, a face worker was earning the same wage he was earning in 1961 and had slipped down the wage scale to such a degree that miners were earning significantly less than workers comparable industries. The miners were given and increase in 1972 with the promise from the government there would be additional increases over the next couple of years to bring the miners back in line with comaparable workers. The Heath government broke its promise when it brought in a wage freeze and that was the reason for the 1974 strike. The government's promise was bearly 18 months old!!!!

The Thatcher government planned to shut down the coal industry before there was even a hint of a strike on the horizon (this is well documented) so to make out Scargill was somehow to blame for the closing of the mining industry is just lies. The problem the government had was that it had NCB accountant's in the central offices cooking the books to make certain profitable mines appear unprofitable, this got round the industry fairly quickly especially when one suddenly has such ludicrous scenarios of individual mines having to pay exhorbitent rent on obsolete machines that were rusting away in their stock yards and their central offices refusing to have them removed to be scrapped. The whole thing was farcical and the fact that none of it was reported in the national media made me realise that when it comes to the crunch, British media is not so free but very much a part of the establishment. These stories were actually published in the continental press but I've still not seen any evidence of them ever being reported in the British press.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 2:01:08 AM >

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 3:25:00 AM

Politesub53

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Meatclever, have you any links supporting your claim about Thatcher ? Her intention was indeed to curb the power of the unions. Like it or not Scargill handled the miners strike badly. He openly declared that he would bring down the government, he also refused to have a general ballot. The miners had already accepted a pay settlement of 9% in 1982 and refused to go on strike.Do you forget why the NUM broke up ? While i had some sympathy in the 70s with the miners plight, they did nothing to make themselves popular by taking action during the 73 oil crisis. Do you forget the 3 day week and how many jobs were lost due to the power shortages ? Heath duly got his come uppance in the 74 election and as i recall the miners got a 30% pay rise.

I cant answer you on problems with immigrant labour in Europe, as i dont live there. I can only tell you what i have seen with my own eyes, working inside the industry. People from all over working via agancies and not having any proper checks on there capabilities. I can provide a link about the effect of EU red tape, across the whole of Europe and not just the UK.

http://www.management-issues.com/2006/8/24/research/eu-admits-that-regulation-stifles-job-creation.asp

As for apprenticeships, its bullshit to blame Thatcher, although i see she is a popular targer for the left. I was an apprentice in the late sixties to the early 70s. The constant strikes and pay rices during the 70s led to employers not wanting to pay for training. I am suprised that someone in teaching forgets it was Thatcher, who introduced the NVQ system, to try and address the problem in the mid eighties.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 3:53:58 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meatclever, have you any links supporting your claim about Thatcher ? Her intention was indeed to curb the power of the unions. Like it or not Scargill handled the miners strike badly. He openly declared that he would bring down the government, he also refused to have a general ballot. The miners had already accepted a pay settlement of 9% in 1982 and refused to go on strike.Do you forget why the NUM broke up ? While i had some sympathy in the 70s with the miners plight, they did nothing to make themselves popular by taking action during the 73 oil crisis. Do you forget the 3 day week and how many jobs were lost due to the power shortages ? Heath duly got his come uppance in the 74 election and as i recall the miners got a 30% pay rise.

I'll try and find an independent link in English.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I cant answer you on problems with immigrant labour in Europe, as i dont live there. I can only tell you what i have seen with my own eyes, working inside the industry. People from all over working via agancies and not having any proper checks on there capabilities. I can provide a link about the effect of EU red tape, across the whole of Europe and not just the UK.

http://www.management-issues.com/2006/8/24/research/eu-admits-that-regulation-stifles-job-creation.asp

Not having the right paper checks is a problem of the agencies, not of the quality of education in any particular country.

I also see what that articles says which goes against my experience. I've got a German friend who has begged me for the last year or so to pick up my tools again because he can't get workers he trusts but he hasn't mentioned anything about bureaucracy preventing him employing someone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

As for apprenticeships, its bullshit to blame Thatcher, although i see she is a popular targer for the left. I was an apprentice in the late sixties to the early 70s. The constant strikes and pay rices during the 70s led to employers not wanting to pay for training. I am suprised that someone in teaching forgets it was Thatcher, who introduced the NVQ system, to try and address the problem in the mid eighties.

Thatcher dismantled the old apprentice schemes in further education colleges for inferior six month course based apprenticeships, that is a fact.

Many technical colleges were paid for through the Steel, Coal, Rail and the nationalised car industry and this helped subsidize the education of apprentices from smaller private companies. Britain's employers have never ever liked spending money on training, this was why Britain's manufacturing was in a poor state. Morris of Morris motors used to boast about how little he invested in Morris Motors. Why do you think everything was nationalized? Lack of investment, an historic problem in British manufacturing industry and the main reason for its demize. British managers couldn't manage a piss up in a brewery and that historically has been the real problem for British manufacturing. There has never been any strategic management in British industry like there has in Germany and France, management always looked for short term financial gain and the expense of the long term. Strange how Citroen and Renault were in the same state as BL in the seventies and didn't collapse. BL had innovative products in the early sixties but its management didn't invest when it had winners and then didn't have a new model for 11 years!!!!!!!!!!

The cause of the 70s strikes and you should know because you were around. Heath brought in decimalization which caused inflation due to businesses rounding everything up (often more than they should) and joining the EU and refusing to allow gradual increases in food prices, many food stuffs doubling in price over a couple of years. Ted Heath said himself these were his two greatest mistakes and the reasons for the industrial trouble in his time as Prime Minister.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 3:55:41 AM >

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 6:26:59 AM

Politesub53

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So are you now changing tack and saying being ib the EU is a mistake ? You also miss my point about employment agencies, and also some sub contractors. They dont care if people they employ are fully qualified, as you rightly said. This has an adverse effect on skilled workers, who have to accept lower wage rates to get jobs. I dont agree about apprentiships being Thatchers fault either. You mention the decline in the car industry, this all took place before she ever got into office. This consided with the large importation of Japanese cars in the early 70s.My whole point about Thatcher, and i have been consistent on this, is the left tend to blame her for everything, which paitently isnt true.

We now have the situation were people are blaming her for the current benefits system, these are the very same people who moaned when she was in office that she wasnt doing enough to help the less well off. Brown ect have done little to change her policies, infact his wages policy is much the same as hers was.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 6:31:28 AM

RealityLicks

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I think I'd broadly agree with MC, here. While there was certainly a degree of hubris on Scargill's part, the confrontation with the unions had been brewing for a long time. The miners have always represented something unique culturally but to many on the right, that special position chimed too closely with the Soviet Union and they were determined to cast the miners not as stalwarts of British working culture but as potential fifth columnists.

Compare press portrayals of the miners in the by-then defunct Daily Herald or Cudlipp's Daily Mirror with those in The Sun or Daily Mail; the aim was to demonise Scargill, Red Ted, etc. The massive popular support for the miners (remember the fund-raiser gigs, the Flying Pickets being at No. 1 for weeks?) had to be eroded to eventually allow media owners to "rationalise" their industry too. The miners were the front line in that battle.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 6:38:39 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

We now have the situation were people are blaming (Thatcher) for the current benefits system, these are the very same people who moaned when she was in office that she wasnt doing enough to help the less well off. Brown ect have done little to change her policies, infact his wages policy is much the same as hers was.

I'm not aware of people blaming her for benefits. I would agree that she pioneered an end to hopes of full employment returning. One of the planks of monetarism - which was more Keith Joseph's idea than hers - was that high unemployment would produce the right climate for employers to cut pay and conditions without fear.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 6:41:46 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

So are you now changing tack and saying being ib the EU is a mistake ?

No I don't. The mistake was Heath's for insisting on market price rises straight away without considering the plight of the low paid who were within months paying 50% more for bread and meat and other essential items. He was allowed to subsidize essential products and introduce rises a little at a time.

Personally I voted for the EU (or EEC then as it was) because having hitchhiked around much of western Europe when I was sixteen, I thought it was a lot better than the shit hole I came from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You also miss my point about employment agencies, and also some sub contractors. They dont care if people they employ are fully qualified, as you rightly said. This has an adverse effect on skilled workers, who have to accept lower wage rates to get jobs. I dont agree about apprentiships being Thatchers fault either. You mention the decline in the car industry, this all took place before she ever got into office. This consided with the large importation of Japanese cars in the early 70s.My whole point about Thatcher, and i have been consistent on this, is the left tend to blame her for everything, which paitently isnt true.

We now have the situation were people are blaming her for the current benefits system, these are the very same people who moaned when she was in office that she wasnt doing enough to help the less well off. Brown ect have done little to change her policies, infact his wages policy is much the same as hers was.

I was working in further education when the changes in apprenticeships were introduced. The old fashioned day release were seen as too expensive and too long and were done away with. Certainly in the area where I worked, with the coal and steel industry closed down, there was no large employer to object to the changes though everyone could see the Tories were going for the cheap option. No doubt because it fitted in with Tory spending plans, tax cuts and getting as many youths into further education at the cheapest rate to mask the real unemployment levels. Which was a little ironic to say they more or less shut the coal and steel industry down and rejected European money to help keep at least some of these industries open. The rub was, the British government would have had to match European money pound for pound which it wasn't prepared to do but it was prepared to pay 100% of the inferior education of the new apprenticeships.

I accept the car industry was destroyed before Thatcher got into power but my point was that British management was crap and had no strategic planning and compared BL to Renault and Citroen because they were in a similar state as BL in the sixties and seventies. As for the large importation of Japanese models, Britain was under no obligation to allow in those imports without significant tariffs because Japan was not reciporocating. The French kept out Japanese imports precisely because of the barriers the Japanese imposed on French cars. Yet again, government ruled by ideaology of the free market. Both Tories and Labour were to blame for that.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2008 6:48:20 AM >

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 8:47:28 AM

popeye1250

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LE, this "global economy" doesn't seem to be working out too well, does it?
The problem is that it makes an extremely small number of people extremely rich while billions suck wind.
I think it's time we *all* ended this science experiment.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/2/2008 10:31:38 AM

Politesub53

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Meatclever, wasnt it management who done away with apprenticeships ? im really not aware that it was government policy. The original idea of apprentices is a noble one stretching back to the old poor laws.

I agree Heath rushed into the EU, another politician like Blair, wanting to leave his mark on history. I also voted to stay in, if you recall there was no vote to join, just a later one on if we should quit. My reason for voting to stay put was because we were told that it was just to simplify European trade.

RL, she inherited the fastes rise in unemployment in history, it would have risen whoever took over. Actually the monetary policies she followed were first spoke of by Callaghans government in the late 70s.

Anyone see the offical figures released by Labour that each immigrant brings in a GDP of just £30 a year ?

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/3/2008 2:32:31 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Anyone see the offical figures released by Labour that each immigrant brings in a GDP of just £30 a year ?

I haven't seen that figure but I heard on the radio that a Parliamentry committee found that immigration has a negative effect, especially on the lower paid and if it had any positive effect it was for the above average income bracket and only marginal at that.

Politesub, I think Heath's monetary wage freeze was a fore runner to Thatcher's monetary policy. He said that himself and he said Margeret Thatcher was one of the MPs against it. But what the hell, what politician isn't an opportunist.

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