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Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 2:38:01 AM

LadyEllen

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http://itn.co.uk/news/13c05fb665902e6139080db1b23033f6.html

Interesting stuff - no significant benefit to the UK, but far higher costs for public services, and native youngsters (of all ethnic groups) and native low paid workers missing out.

E

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 2:56:32 AM

meatcleaver

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Immigration was never about needing workers to fill jobs or not having enough skilled workers, it was about lowering wages, this is why the British government opted out of the EU's workers rights clauses. A Labour government!!!!! Labour are only in power because they are conservatives dressed in pale pink. I know a lot of skilled British workers over here and in Germany that are here because they couldn't get work in Britain, too old or too expensive or both (45 being too old in some cases). I'm not against the free movement of labour in the EU but Britain shot itself in the foot by opting out of the wortkers rights clauses. Cheap labour from the east means that Britain's employers can lower worker's conditions and get poor east Europeans to do what its own citizens refuse to do and then blame the indiginous workers for being work shy. In EU countries where worker's rights are enforced, there is no such problem (I'm not saying these coiuntries are problem free with immigration but there is no undercutting because of government opt outs).

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/1/2008 3:00:22 AM >

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 3:07:39 AM

LadyEllen

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Lowering wages MC? But, that cant be the motivation - we're building a knowledge based economy, where our innovation and skill will increase incomes - a good thing too, considering how much in student loans is to be paid off. In the UK of the future, even the guy who picks up litter will have a degree and six figure salary - which is a good thing too, because there will be a lot more beer cans rolling about amidst a lot more used needles.

E

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 3:34:34 AM

LostLittleSoul2

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quote:

it was about lowering wages

i am sorry to say that, but I can only disagree on that one. I am from germany and therefore not britsh, worked and currently work here for a big variety of different residential homes and also worked in care jobs in the private sector in the past and how many "british citizens" are willing to do this kind of work???

Somehow I did not meet to many here as I can say easily that 90% of my colleagues in this jobs are from other EU and Non-EU countries. So yes, you might have enough skilled workers here, but that does not mean they would be willing to do this work and if therefore this immigration wouldn't be then the staffing in the health- and social sector would even look worse then it already does. I worked with clients and relatives who moaned about to get so often people from poland or from africa/caribbean countries, but well, the agencies and councils can only provide the staff which applies for the work. They surely would increase the amount of british workers, when they would "go for this kind of work." And also I know one employer who paid very low indeed in the past, all of my employers at the moment pay pretty well, so it would not be an excuse to say people would not want to do it as the payment would be too low....or that they would drop their salary so badly low...as it is not...

regarding

quote:

I know a lot of skilled British workers over here and in Germany that are here because they couln't get work in Britain, too old or too expensive or both (45 being too old in some cases)

I can only say that it is even more difficult in germany to get work when you are 45 and above and almost impossible once you reach the age of 50 then it is here.

I came over to here when we had 11% unemployment in 2005 and there you haven't really had a chance to get a job when you are older as already the younger once in their 20s struggled to get a job. When I did my exams in 2003 the future looked bright and our course was confident to find work easily as there were plenty jobs. Well, in 2004 the social sector collapsed finally as well (after many other sectors collapsed in the years before already) and 80% of our course was unemployed. So you might know some british people working in Germany, but it's not easy to get work there. At the moment our unemployment rate dropped down from more then 5 million to 3 million something, as far as I know, but thats not a surprise, considering how many people left my country in the last few years.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 3:52:08 AM

LadyEllen

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LLS2 - one of the issues raised in the enquiry was that British workers have a much lower work ethic than the EU immigrants. I can attest to this in a small way, since I employed a Czech guy in my company a while back, who did amazing things for us. Whilst we didnt have a problem with other employees being unmotivated (in fact I'm lucky enough to have the best British team in our sector), what this young man did (he was only 21) was incredible.

But the fact remains that for many, there are jobs they wont consider - even though they have no skills for anything "better". Since unemployment benefits are meant to only be available when there is no suitable work available, obviously such claimants ought to be cut off and sent to perform the work available - except they wouldnt turn up and would prefer to fund themselves by other, even less socially beneficial alternatives.

And in your sector (where my ex has worked for the past twenty years), I am really not sure we should necessarily have anyone in that type of employment, for whom it is not a vocational choice. Even hearing about it second hand is harrowing, and for me, there is no amount of pay that would induce me to do it - I simply dont have the interest or skills or psychology to be able to do it.

The answer really lies in recognising that whilst those who create wealth are important, they must not be celebrated to the exclusion of others who, whilst less productive still perform absolutely vital work for our society. But then, our entire culture is that of the individual, not of society.

E

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 4:56:08 AM

RealityLicks

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LE, when are you going to get off this tired old story about the government destroying manufacturing? From where I sit on an admittedly much lower horse, it seems that first the culture of working people was comprehensively dismantled and control of the media monopolised by the right. From the Sixties on, they successfully convinced working class people that looking at boobs in the morning made better sense than thinking politics. That done, they demonised the trades unions - obviously all too well. Then Thatcher and Tebbitt broke their power.

By the time Labour regained power, the culture of this stupidly-blinkered and now amnesiac country was utterly transformed. Some are still working from the old text-book, it seems.

Globalisation can't be halted without biting the hand that feeds you - the multinational. The knowledge economy is easy to ridicule until it comes to suggesting alternatives. I still don't see why working class kids shouldn't be given the choices their "betters" have thrived on for generations, or the sudden nostalgia for the closed shop but until you can explain how to get British workers to build cars for what a Korean or a Slovak gets paid, or how to minimise the costs of the greediest and least efficient supply chain in history we can't compete in manufacturing. Neither can we convince finance to invest in R&D anything like they do in Germany, Belgium etc - they just aren't interested.

If you seriously think offering a few apprenticeships will rebuild industry, I want a puff of what you've been smoking. If you want the government to tackle matters of this sort, we are looking at a massive tax hike. Nobody cares quite enough to vote for that though, not when its easier and cheaper to display your patriotism by rehearsing tired old arguments aimed at soft targets.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 4:58:23 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

mass immigration confers no benefit to the UK, but far higher costs for public services

Well modest soul that I am I cant resist saying I told you so...at least a year ago.

I wonder if the "great and the good but basically useless" even consider the amount of money returned to for example Asia?

Just to repeat myself the Welfare Sytem will be the next to be examined, at least in so far as it benefits the "werkers"

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 5:00:09 AM

RealityLicks

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I rest my case.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 5:09:06 AM

seeksfemslave

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Be careful you dont involve yourself in an incident with a flying penguin .
You are a Yank I believe.
It is said you are lacking in a sense of irony and I think that might be true.

You know absolutely nothing about the social fabric of the UK, and how deference to public school educated charlatans has got us into the mess we are now in.
Not to mention the financial sector.Where do you work by the way ?

(in reply to RealityLicks)

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 5:14:24 AM

LadyEllen

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Sorry RL - I never mentioned manufacturing once in this thread?

What we are talking about here is a skills shortage - the skills to build the millions of houses we need, the bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians et al. It is snobbery of the worst kind to perpetuate the myth that these skilled trades are somehow lesser, somehow for the "lower orders" and stupidity of the worst kind to hold that we dont need to develop such skills in our own people for our own good, and that everyone needs and ought to have a degree or be thrown onto social benefits or into minimum wage work. A skilled tradesperson makes a very good living by the way.

And I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree on multinationals and globalisation too - what has that got to do with whether we have the skills to provide for our needs?

The problem with this knowledge based economy is simple - we turn out one graduate, whilst India turns out fifty. Unless we are to hold that somehow, our people are much cleverer than Indians, I'd say we're at a fair disadvantage, wouldnt you? And of course, anything we innovate will be made elsewhere anyway and copied for a lower cost.

And I dont believe we need a massive tax hike to provide skills training to those who choose that route either. If we stopped playing Empire the money would be available within current taxation.

But I'm curious - which "soft targets" do you think I'm aiming at?

E

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 5:31:50 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

LLS2 - one of the issues raised in the enquiry was that British workers have a much lower work ethic than the EU immigrants. I can attest to this in a small way, since I employed a Czech guy in my company a while back, who did amazing things for us. Whilst we didnt have a problem with other employees being unmotivated (in fact I'm lucky enough to have the best British team in our sector), what this young man did (he was only 21) was incredible.

I doubt one national worker is better than the other, I think the difference is, that workers that go abroad have already got off their butt to do something about their situation. Years ago I used to work for engineering company in Germany and they used to say British workers were great. Yes the ones that worked for that particular company were but they worked harder than Brits back home but then again, they had better pay and conditions than workersd back home.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 5:41:17 AM

BrigandDoom

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The immigrant workers I have found are undertaking the work we Brits think is beneath us! I know for a fact that people have had their job seekers aloowance stopped because they would not take on what they thought was demeaning work. There is a generation of people in this country and fault lies directly with the governments of the 10970's including Margaret Thatchers (remember she was elected in 1979) regime which made it all the worse, where kids expected everything to be given to them on a plate. Even now society tries to wrap these poor little darlings in cotton wool, so they hit the workforce at 16-18 without the neccessary socila skills to not only work with others, but they expect to be "employed" by a company that actually work for it! I personally am sick to death of employing 20 year olds, who when told to do something akin to work start carrying on like spoilt brats. I kid you not! That is why I have started employing eastern Europeans with a good command of english. Not only has my companies productivety increased 80% in 18 months, I have seen a marked reduction in days off with the "flu", I employ people who want an honest days pay for an honest days work and don't need massive bonuses to get them off of their arses and I pay well above the going rate as I want to keep these guys & gals.
I only wish I could find Brits whom are as work dedicated as these people because I would employ them first. So it's time to stop this stupid PC culture, give some of these lazy workshy layabouts a bloody good kick up the arse and get them working. Its time to start teaching this generation the work ethic, rather than the lets hand it to them on a plate ethic.

< Message edited by BrigandDoom -- 4/1/2008 5:42:45 AM >

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Brigand Doom

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:02:39 AM

meatcleaver

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Yep, let's not get dewy eyed over Margeret Thatcher. She manipulated the unemployment figures 21 times and she still couldn't get it below 3 million. I know plenty of people that were put on invalidity benefit to get them off the unemplyed register under her regime. Thatcher also produced the first generation of school leavers that remained unemployed throughout their twenties and has children without ever having a job. Incidently, the rest of the EU didn't suffer the economic depths Thatcher's Britain did simply because Britain's economic ills were of her making.

I ended up working on continental Europe (I work for myself now) because working for British companies was shite, they paid shite, the conditions were shite and the holidays were shite and they expected you to be grateful and work harder for the privilege of being treated like shite.

Actaully I'm too old, too educated and too eperienced to get a job in Britain because an employer would actually think I might ask for what I'm worth.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/1/2008 6:04:07 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:25:23 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What we are talking about here is a skills shortage - the skills to build the millions of houses we need, the bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians et al. It is snobbery of the worst kind to perpetuate the myth that these skilled trades are somehow lesser, somehow for the "lower orders" and stupidity of the worst kind to hold that we dont need to develop such skills in our own people for our own good, and that everyone needs and ought to have a degree or be thrown onto social benefits or into minimum wage work. A skilled tradesperson makes a very good living by the way.

this is a new one - quoting my own posts....

but I recalled a report on last night's Midlands Today (the BBC local news) - apparently there are many people who were flooded out of their homes last summer, still living in caravans and temporary accomodation - because there just arent the skilled tradespeople available to make the houses habitable again.

and I seem to recall something on the news the other day about the Olympic organisers in London having problems, for the same reason.

still, if we didnt have a few thousand media studies graduates to report on all this, we might never know......

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:26:20 AM

RealityLicks

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If the construction industry is not part of the manufacturing sector, then I have mis-read your posts. I have not criticised skilled work as beneath any other kind - that is counter to everything I've stated above. Social mobility today is worse than it was in 1950 and our universities are once again over-whelmingly middle class in make-up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

But the fact remains that for many, there are jobs they wont consider - even though they have no skills for anything "better". Since unemployment benefits are meant to only be available when there is no suitable work available, obviously such claimants ought to be cut off and sent to perform the work available - except they wouldnt turn up and would prefer to fund themselves by other, even less socially beneficial alternatives.

quote:

What we are talking about here is a skills shortage - the skills to build the millions of houses we need, the bricklayers, carpenters, plumbers, electricians et al.

One moment you lament the reluctance to do unskilled jobs, suggesting compulsion should be used, the next, you clamour for skills training - which would be difficult to undertake if they are all off wiping pensioners bums.

My point is simple enough: governments in an era of globalisation, low regulation and low taxation can only respond to changes in the world economy, not control them. Smashing the miners and recasting Britain as the haven of the entrepreneurial classes speeded up the changes which were already afoot.

Skills shortages are historic in Britain; we no more invest in new engineering or IT grads than we do in the essential R&D which no-one identified as their main purpose because the idea of "Britain" is a quaint notion our real masters discarded long ago.

The real aim should be to find value across the range of individuals - high-quality vocational courses for those who are suited to them (semi-skilling them and leaving them to others' benificence is a false economy, long-term) and "purer" education in recognition of the UK's record of producing innovative thinkers and creatives - our cultural industry punches far above its' weight and can do even better.

Worker's rights, unfortunately, cause high unemployment and while tolerated in culturally homogenous countries, it fractures diverse ones like ours. The benefit comes from the energising effect of diversity; today's politics are usually tardy, inneffectual PR exercises.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:33:48 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

still, if we didnt have a few thousand media studies graduates to report on all this, we might never know......

E

The media is one of the fastest growing sectors in the UK and attracts lots of money from overseas. British journalists are highly sought after in the US because although they are often weaker on facts and stats, they write with real vigour. Sneer all you like but TimeOut has blown American competition out of the water on their home turf.

If kids don't want to be bricklayers its the government's fault? What about their wise parents?

PS

Isn't the shortage of workers in construction a throwback to the last collapse in the industry - sometime in the 90's?

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/1/2008 6:48:07 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 16

RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:44:53 AM

LadyEllen

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I seem to recall that "construction" is listed separately in the FT list of stocks and shares.....

No one who does not have the skill set to look after people in residential care should ever be employed there - I made that clear. This is not unskilled or low skilled work, except in our culture - it requires very special skills which sadly are very undervalued.

And yes, if there is suitable work available then compulsion ought to be used - except (as I said) this would prove counter-productive in many cases, with those so compelled failing to turn up even so. They know very well that regardless of whatever they do, they will still be entitled to some benefit or another to the same value, albeit under a different name.

But you put your finger right on the problem - that governments in our era are powerless to do anything but steer a course through the whims of international marketeers. This can be and must be controlled such that we govern this country, not wealthy individuals and shadowy corporations in a tower block thousands of miles away. But action will only be taken when we hit the rock bottom towards which we are careering now as a consequence of permitting what are well dressed pirates to run the world with a free hand- or abandon democracy altogether as a waste of time and energy which ought rightly to be devoted to praising our corporate finance masters and hoping we will eat this week.

Your final two paragraphs I can find little to disagree with, but on workers' rights we must reexamine the whole context of workers' rights in the light of the new way which emerges from the action taken above.

E

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RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 6:55:00 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

still, if we didnt have a few thousand media studies graduates to report on all this, we might never know......

E

The media is one of the fastest growing sectors in the UK and attracts lots of money from overseas. British journalists are highly sought after in the US because although they are often weaker on facts and stats, they write with real vigour. Sneer all you like but TimeOut has blown American competition out of the water on their home turf.

If kids don't want to be bricklayers its the government's fault? What about their wise parents?

And just how much media do we seriously need? I have 300 or so channels on my TV, all of which must be pretty much fully staffed as they wouldnt function otherwise, and of which I watch maybe 10 at most, of which half broadcast pre-made programmes they got elsewhere and re-run many of them time and again.

We cant all be journalists, we cant all be newsreaders, weather forecasters, actors, camera operators etc. Someone - and many more someones than those producing the programming or writing the newspaper - has to watch, read or listen. We cannot produce an economy where we all take in one another's washing, and neither can we produce an economy where we all watch each other's programme or read each other's newspaper.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 18

RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 7:05:04 AM

RealityLicks

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I'm disappointed: The zero sum argument is normally the refuge of the right-wing reactionary.

No, we can't all do telly but the old and new media are still expanding... and the lingua franca of the world is English. We should ignore that trend and stock up on tradesmen whose industries crash with regularity?

Wanted to add as my final shot: some of the shortages are due to a falling birth rate. What next a gov't breeding plan?

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/1/2008 7:08:12 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 19

RE: Lords' enquiry into EU-UK migration - 4/1/2008 7:28:29 AM

LadyEllen

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And how much of the falling birth rate is associated with the price of housing?
And how is the high price of housing associated with the shortage of housing?
And how is the shortage of housing associated by the shortage of people to build more houses?

We've been told we need x million new houses - there is no one to build them for those here, let alone more settlers
We've got the Olympics - but there is no one to build the facilities
We're told we're subject to increasing flooding - but there is no one to fix up afterwards

My argument is for the "diverse economy" which the government claims we have (which we dont) - which means that we have all the skills we need, both journalists and bricklayers.

The economy we have is one based on a shortage of housing and the accompanying rise in the value of housing that brings and the associated ability of homeowners to release equity or borrow against that value to spend on consumer products. The bulk of the remaining economy rests on these pillars. It is a cynically engineered situation, engineered with a full understanding of just how fragile the whole thing is and how it was the only real way out of the previous mess.

Now that this particular scheme is ripping at the seams, it will be interesting to see what is proposed next. I foresee the reintroduction of slavery as a way to produce an economy, what with all these morally derelict (as they're already being painted) bankrupts we'll have about the place.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 20

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