David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (Full Version)

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Level -> David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 5:47:17 PM)

quote:

John Maynard Keynes was twitted with changing his mind. He replied, "When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

My favorite example of a change of mind was Norman Mailer at The Village Voice.

Norman took on the role of drama critic, weighing in on the New York premiere of Waiting for Godot.

Twentieth century's greatest play. Without bothering to go, Mailer called it a piece of garbage.

When he did get around to seeing it, he realized his mistake. He was no longer a Voice columnist, however, so he bought a page in the paper and wrote a retraction, praising the play as the masterpiece it is.

Every playwright's dream.


http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0811,374064,374064,1.html/full




TheHeretic -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 6:00:11 PM)

       Great link, Level.




angelikaJ -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 6:07:39 PM)

Thank you for sharing that.




Level -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 6:25:25 PM)

I always find it interesting when someone sees such a large change in their point of view; like in David Horowitz's Left Illusions or David Brock's Blinded By The Right.




cjan -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 6:33:11 PM)

I enjoyed reading Mamet's piece. Thoughtful, clear as a bell and, of course, engagingly written. Thanks for the link, Level, I would have missed it otherwise.

I've enjoyed Mamet's work since the old days in Chicago when he was the director of the Steppenwolfe Theater, a small, maybe 150 seat, funky but wonderful theater and a company that produced wonderful work. Too bad more people aren't aware of and don't see his movies. Check him out at wherever y'all rent your DVD's from.




cjan -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 6:53:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I always find it interesting when someone sees such a large change in their point of view; like in David Horowitz's Left Illusions or David Brock's Blinded By The Right.


I know what you mean, Level. I used to watch William F. Buckley Jr. on tv because, not only was he interesting, I was fascinated by his mannerisms, facial expressions and the odd way his scalp would sometimes wiggle when he talked. I rarely agreed with any of his views though. Now, I find myself agreeing more and more with many of his views. Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said , "If you aren't a liberal at age 25, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative at 45, you have no brain" ?




Level -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 7:06:49 PM)

Cjan, I do indeed believe Churchill said that; and while I don't agree with it in total, I see what he meant, and see some truth in it. [;)]
 
 




domiguy -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 8:08:35 PM)

It is a nice article...David is now sixty and rich. It's funny that a friend of mine that was pro choice while dating has now become pro life now that he has married and probably won't be knocking anyone up anytime soon.

I think that the term liberal is a poor definition or catch all. If you care about the environment you are a liberal...Why can't I be viewed as being conservative when it comes to fucking up this planet's air and water?




Noah -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 9:32:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

John Maynard Keynes was twitted with changing his mind. He replied, "When the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

My favorite example of a change of mind was Norman Mailer at The Village Voice.

Norman took on the role of drama critic, weighing in on the New York premiere of Waiting for Godot.

Twentieth century's greatest play. Without bothering to go, Mailer called it a piece of garbage.

When he did get around to seeing it, he realized his mistake. He was no longer a Voice columnist, however, so he bought a page in the paper and wrote a retraction, praising the play as the masterpiece it is.

Every playwright's dream.


http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0811,374064,374064,1.html/full


He's overturned his liberalism but his brain is still waiting for the lighting to hit the electrodes, I think.

Well that's unkind.  He does in any event seem to have started out muddle-headed on the left and ended up the same way on the right.

Consider his silly synopsis of liberalism: that everything is always wrong. He very soon tars liberalism with a brush antithetical to that one: the  sad "... and yet ... " gambit.
And he doesn't even notice that he's trodden theatrically upon his own rhetorical dick. Muddled, muddled, muddled.

He characterizes politics itself as "the polemic between persons of two opposing views," when the word has served through the centuries to address our attention to what differs between bilateral interpersonal interactions on the one hand, and broader disagreements in the public sphere, on the other. In memorializing this category error he buys into the Feminist notion that The Personal is Political, one of the most brain-dead notions ever propounded on the Left, and cranks it up till it all but excludes the polity and the public sphere.

I mean if you don't realize what the subject matter of politics is I don't expect much from you whichever side of the aisle you're slewing blindly toward this year.

As for the once quaint, now patently absurd fiction that The Right wants government to get out of the way, I have to wonder how Mamet failed to notice the grandest growth of governement and government power (and the horrifying shrinkage in civil rights) in history, all under the auspices of recent Conservative rule.

The Brain Dead Conservative wants government in the way of dissent, and especially in the way of the currently suspened Habeus Corpus rights which that radically Liberal document, the Constitution, attempted to enshrine for American citizens.

The (American ) Brain Dead Conservatives, singing a song of fiscal responsibility, are borrowing like drunken sailors the day before pay. And whom are they borrowing from? China. What are they borrowing for? To pay for an idiotic boondogle in the Middle East sailing under the ultra-Liberal flag of Nation Building.

The Brain Dead Conservatives are busy doing their best to crush civics under the massive weight  of consolidated media promoting lowest-possible-denominator discourse (the Brain Dead on the Left are abetting them insofar as they sink to this level; I too pine for Buckley)

Brain Dead Conservatives are busy repealing science in the classroom, replacing it with theology; ; busy putting the federal government in the way of your local school board and the teachers they hire; busy putting government in the way of what happens in your bedroom ... the list goes on.

I guess if a Brain Dead Lefty were looking for a moment to fuck girls with pancake makeup and big hair for a change, this must seem like the perfect moment. No risk of rousing that brain from its dark slumbering.

Look at Mamet's praise for that icon of Liberal Politics, the US Constitution and the separation of powers, just as the Bill of Rights has been hung on a hook and power has been grabbed viciously and voraciously by the Executive. This shows his muddle-headedness as well as anything.

I can't believe he is anything but disingenuous or senile with such baloney as: " I am hard-pressed to see an instance where the intervention of the government led to much beyond sorrow."  Would sorrow be so much reduced if slavery still obtained and women's suffrage didn't? The innovations which over-ruled these historical conditions must be doubly hated, since besides being instances of government in action, each is a triumph of the Liberal over the Conservative ideal.

Would sorrow be so much reduced if the Public Health system and Center for Disease Control had never been conceived? If roads and bridges had only ever been built privately? Would sorrow be so much reduced if there had never been any system of public education, no local or state or national parks. No, just more and more muddle-headedness from the newly minted Brain Dead Conservative, Mamet.

His notion of a world in which everything was magically wrong was indeed Brain Dead Liberalism. I'm glad he's left it behind. But his new notion of a world where any(status quo)thing that isn't perfectly evil should be praised and promoted is just as childish, stupid, and dangerous. He trades a pessimism he apparently saw shared among Liberals in his lofty and exclusive social circle for for the magical "realism" of  such obvious fictions as Free Markets and Imposed Democracy. In this we can see that Mamet's brain is as far from vigorous as ever, even if the new stick propping it up happens to be on the Right instead of the Left.






SugarMyChurro -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/25/2008 9:40:46 PM)

Meaningless fluff.

It's main problem is the fallacy of the false dilemma. The fact that one can write a play about a false dilemma doesn't make it a perfectly apt analogy for real world politics - in fact, far from it.

Most of you have this problem of lack of vision also.

But I really expected more from Mamet.




NorthernGent -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 12:01:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said , "If you aren't a liberal at age 25, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative at 45, you have no brain" ?



It was, but he had a vested interest in this comment - Churchill changed political allegiances twice.

More accurately.....

In the event you're not in power at the age of 25, find a new party; 'no change by the age of 45, revert back to your pre-25 party.




Estring -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 12:13:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It is a nice article...David is now sixty and rich. It's funny that a friend of mine that was pro choice while dating has now become pro life now that he has married and probably won't be knocking anyone up anytime soon.

I think that the term liberal is a poor definition or catch all. If you care about the environment you are a liberal...Why can't I be viewed as being conservative when it comes to fucking up this planet's air and water?



Getting married does that to some people. Makes them more mature and maybe rethink some of their priorities and beliefs. Others who actually believe that conservatives like having bad air and water will continue to be brain dead.




FirmhandKY -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 1:12:08 AM)

Some one get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?  [:D]

What I find disturbing about rants such as yours is the total "black-and-white" view of the world, the total "us-or-them" type of thinking in a civil society that makes it an uncivil society.

You paint anyone who holds any conservative beliefs as "brain dead" and seeking only personal power, and completely uninterested in individual rights.

Unfortunately, your rhetoric is no more enlightning, nor any more civilized than the worst of the masses of people who have beliefs with which you so vehemently disagree.

Firm




FirmhandKY -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 1:26:38 AM)

I don't have time to read the entire article (I'm traveling today), but for those who complain about it being - in effect - "mush" (and in context to my remarks to Noah)... what about this bit?


I found not only that I didn't trust the current government (that, to me, was no surprise), but that an impartial review revealed that the faults of this president—whom I, a good liberal, considered a monster—were little different from those of a president whom I revered.


Bush got us into Iraq, JFK into Vietnam. Bush stole the election in Florida; Kennedy stole his in Chicago. Bush outed a CIA agent; Kennedy left hundreds of them to die in the surf at the Bay of Pigs. Bush lied about his military service; Kennedy accepted a Pulitzer Prize for a book written by Ted Sorenson. Bush was in bed with the Saudis, Kennedy with the Mafia. Oh.

Firm




NeedToUseYou -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 1:45:25 AM)

Personally, I went from a liberal, high school start of college, to a republican conservative(agreeing with most of what the republicans say), to now, thinking they are both the scum of the earth, and common in  characteristics. They both lie, steal, cheat, and deceive, they just do it about different things.

So, if this guy has jumped sides once, at least he's only one step away from a realization that is worth something.  It doesn't matter if he got upset with "liberals" or "conservatives" first or last. He's got to jump from the groups entirely.

I'll say it to anybody, anybody that clings to a party affiliation or grouping as more than a general tool for outline general philosophical concepts is a tool themselves.

Goes for Democrats suck people
Goes for Republicans suck people
Goes for Conservatives suck people
Goes for Liberals suck people.

They all suck. Any large political grouping sucks, and doesn't represent what they say.






RealityLicks -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 2:22:37 AM)

So Mamet is claiming to once have been a "liberal" is he?  As far as I can tell, I have seen all of the films he's written, including those under pseudonyms.  And even the Ratigan adaptation was marred by his tortured syntax and heavy-handed "style".  He strikes me as a good editor of the work of others but when given reign, his endless repetition of staccato phrases - praised by the chattering classes as street-wise: hah! - is uniquely annoying.  He works a plot well... usually.  Ronin was good but The Verdict was heavily re-worked at Paul Newman's request.  Glengarry GlenrossEmperor's Clothes more like.  I respect that Steppenwolf is considered a ground-breaking theatre collective but, heretically, I put that down to the actors, not Mamet.

Having also read a number of his essays, I would never readily connect him with liberalism what with his long-standing affiliation with the NRA and certain political concerns of the right.  Maybe he was a liberal one summer at college, I dunno.  Or maybe he feels ashamed that he couldn't live up to his youthful principles and spins his lack of resolve as "greater maturity".   To me this piece, like most of his writing, reeks with style but ultimately bears little real substance.

If you want an idea of what Mamet is like, see Your Friends and Neighbours by Neil LaBute (who fits that staccato delivery of dialogue into a much better setting, btw).  The Ben Stiller character should be interesting.




thompsonx -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 8:31:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Bush got us into Iraq, JFK into Vietnam.
The history books claim it was Eisenhower who took us to Vietnam.
Something about pursuing the Truman doctrine,or was it empire building...sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two.


Bush stole the election in Florida; Kennedy stole his in Chicago.
ROFLMAO

Bush outed a CIA agent; Kennedy left hundreds of them to die in the surf at the Bay of Pigs.
As long as you are engaging in "double speak".  It might be more appropriate to say that not supporting an invasion of a sovereign nation for the purpose of "regime change" is the same as invading a sovereign nation for the purpose of "regime change".
Kennedy chose not to support an invasion of Cuba for purposes of regime change.  Bush chose to invade Iraq for purposes of regime change. 
Puuuleeeze lets compare apples with apples.

Bush lied about his military service; Kennedy accepted a Pulitzer Prize for a book written by Ted Sorenson.
Ted Sorenson says that is not true.
Herbert Parmet says that is not true.
Kennedy acknowledges Sorenson's contributions in the preface to the book.
60 minutes publicly apologized for the assertion that Sorenson was the "author"
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/031107.html





Bush was in bed with the Saudis, Kennedy with the Mafia.
I thought he was in bed with Marilyn Monroe....
My opinion of this scum sucking pos are already on record.  I try, however, to confine my criticism of him to his actual transgressions.  There certainly are enough of them that I do not need to fabricate any.
Firm




domiguy -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 11:54:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It is a nice article...David is now sixty and rich. It's funny that a friend of mine that was pro choice while dating has now become pro life now that he has married and probably won't be knocking anyone up anytime soon.

I think that the term liberal is a poor definition or catch all. If you care about the environment you are a liberal...Why can't I be viewed as being conservative when it comes to fucking up this planet's air and water?



Getting married does that to some people. Makes them more mature and maybe rethink some of their priorities and beliefs. Others who actually believe that conservatives like having bad air and water will continue to be brain dead.



C'mon...For the majority it has nothing to do with "maturing." It has to with being a hypocrite. We criticize drug use when "we" are no longer taking drugs...We criticize the sexual lifestyle of others when "we" no longer partake in a lifestyle that is sexual. We become pro life when "we" no longer have to face the ramifications of an unwanted preganacy....Some of these things do seem to come about aw we grow older....We get grouchier. We yell at the paper boy and the kids playing on the lawn....It has nothing to do with maturation it just means that we have become more intolerant of the people that surround us.

Everyone has the opportunity to grow and change. It just strikes me that many people become more conservative as their intolerance levels increase. Not a very admirable trait or path.

2nd point...I doubt that conservatives "like" having bad air or water....However, it seems that when our country is considering lowering emmission and pollution standards this seems to take place under a conservative leader....You want to drill in Alaska go right on ahead. You want to be allowed to dump more pollutants into our lakes and rivers....Better elect a Republican as President....Industry not ecologically friendly...Can you really argue this point intelligently?




cjan -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 2:00:35 PM)

I think terms like "liberal", "conservative"," libertarian", are just more labels. Many folks hold views that cover the rainbow of opinions in various areas. Hopefully, as we mature and experience life as it is, we become less attatched to labels and our opinions and our minds and ears open enough to at least consider different points of view. Being too attatched to any point of view or label has always, in my experience, turned around to bite me in the ass.




Noah -> RE: David Mamet: why I am no longer a brain-dead liberal (3/26/2008 2:58:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Some one get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?  [:D]

What I find disturbing about rants such as yours is the total "black-and-white" view of the world, the total "us-or-them" type of thinking in a civil society that makes it an uncivil society.

You paint anyone who holds any conservative beliefs as "brain dead" and seeking only personal power, and completely uninterested in individual rights.

Unfortunately, your rhetoric is no more enlightning, nor any more civilized than the worst of the masses of people who have beliefs with which you so vehemently disagree.

Firm


Not at all, KY.

I mean that may be what you saw, but it wasn't what I painted.

When I refered to brain dead conservatives I in no way referring to conservatives generally. I did referring to quite a few who have managed to gain power recently. As well I referred to many in the rank-and-file who have been hood-winked by them. Plenty of other conservatives are as horrified by those folks as am I.

I praised Buckley, for heaven's sake, and ever so sincerely. I criticized some all too popular left wing political philosophy. I think plenty of people on both sides of the aisle actively contribute to de-civilizing society, as I said in my post.

Praising and blaming on both sides isn't what I call black and white thinking.

I borrowed Mamet's rhetorical device, "brain-dead" to criticize people of all stripes who feel, for instance, that conserbative and liberal political thought are two mutually exclusive monoliths, or than any respectable instance of either sort of view can be boiled down to a slogan, or even to two words, as Mamet suggested.

I was criticizing the muddle-headed thinking of Mamet. He writes lucid sentences. Some readers have mistaken this for lucid thinking on his part.
I think you would agree in principle that one can string together lucid sentence after lucid sentence but if the thinking behind them is unclear then any apprent clarity in the overall message is probably illusory.






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