RE: doubting the lifestyle...

RE: doubting the lifestyle... (Full Version)

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justhonest -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 12:00:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b If you have beliefs and values why not try putting them into practice BEFORE you meet someone and not afterwards? Haven't you ever thought that you're coming across to others like a whiny 4 year old toddler in some playgroup and not a responsible, mature adult? Just asking.. nope and with all respect - as my title mention - doubting the lifestyle. i am not here to discuss.. what is abuse and what not... we have a credo sounds like SSC... all things are beyond that - definitly abuse to myself... abuse is abuse and there exist much more than the physical stuff. i am pretty sure also - all people are abused once know very well - most abusers come in the most freindly, gentle way until they change.... i was just wondering about the kind of community this lifestyle has and all the - (please thats not an offend, neither misunderstand me) sister/ brother stuff - but when it comes to the truth.... the old slogan fits... people don't wanna hear the truth... just confuse me very much in a lifestyle like this - cause i always felt otherwise about that lifestyle... but like it was mentioned before - that lifestyle isn't better nor worse than the "vanilla" world... so i did learned something! justhonest

KnightofMists -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 12:03:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colouredin http://www.collarchat.com/m_1163969/tm.htm one mans heaven is anothers hell and some like to live in Hell

lally3 -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 12:26:38 PM)
hi, if you felt so horrifically abused by him, why didnt you go to the police? - i have no idea what he did to you, but if you believe he is a menace to society that is an obvious course to take. i know why you havent,.... because his argument will be that you entered into a consensual arrangement with him and that, hun, is where the problem lies. niether the police or the bdsm community can hound a person down if the agreement was consensual. he may well be an abuser, using the consensual agreement to get away with it. and im really sorry that you have had to experience this, but as other people have said here, what you might hate others might love and unless he physically stopped you from walking out the minute you decided you were not happy and unless there was someone to actually witness you being held against your will, there really isnt a clear and straight forward path to take. all that i can say to you is you have to be mega mega careful. the getting to know period is just that, it isnt just about what the two of you want from the bdsm lists, its about getting to know the person and reading between the lines and if theres anything, anything atall that doesnt tally, you back out.

texancutie2 -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 12:57:55 PM)
I honestly don't know about all the sis/brother stuff, because the only time I have been called sis is in the chatrooms or online in an email. I tend to discount that stuff, unless I know that person and they want to give me a pet name or something. Terminology and flowery words/ideologies glamourizing what some people call the 'lifestyle', are not really great indicators for what everyone personally does or believes. I don't think that there is really a collective mindset, except on some maybe basic views, and there certainly is no one out there policing individual relationships. There are just bad eggs and good eggs out there. I find that people tend to hang out with others they have things in common with, rather than hang out in a collective community on a consistent basis. It kind of ebbs and flows. Though socializing on a casual basis can be fun....it doesn't mean that everyone adheres to the same views. There really is no standardization of of what is right or what is wrong. Though we all hope for honesty, communication and that we are cared for to some degree, by our partners and friends. Like sometimes attracts like, and if we flub up and make mistakes in choosing the partners we get involved with...then it is up to us to learn from our mistakes and choose wisely in the future.

CalifChick -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 1:43:23 PM)
So if I understand correctly, you are under the impression that we should all band together and support each other and shun those you think are bad people (your "people don't want to hear the truth" reference)? Maybe the lifestyle is not for you if that is your expectation. But perhaps changing your expectations... that people are the same everywhere, they don't necessarily want to hear you going on and on and on about someone that you should have not gotten involved with, that there is not a "community" of lifestyle people as you perceive it, etc. Cali

IronBear -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 2:55:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick So if I understand correctly, you are under the impression that we should all band together and support each other and shun those you think are bad people (your "people don't want to hear the truth" reference)? Maybe the lifestyle is not for you if that is your expectation. But perhaps changing your expectations... that people are the same everywhere, they don't necessarily want to hear you going on and on and on about someone that you should have not gotten involved with, that there is not a "community" of lifestyle people as you perceive it, etc. Cali There is of course another aspect of this. it is entirely possible for people to build a false picture of this and anyother lifestyle or group because of the people they have met and with whom they have experienced it with. A good example would be from a personal experience of mine. pre moving to Queensland, I had excelent experiences in both the Pagan Communities and the SCA. Movint to Queensland I found several unpleasant things: If you are over 35 people don;'t want to know you no matter your experience or ability. If you have something like a 30 year age difference between yourself and your partner, you are disgusting and not welcome (my wife is 30 years younger. If you weren't born in Queensland or lived here most of your life you can fk off. I found that by changing my perspectives in 1 and 2 certainly did make a lot of diferrence and enjoyed all the things i wanted to continue with but not with either the SCA or the mainstreem Pagans. Number three can be worked around once you study the lay of the land and work on getting on well with key people.. It thus becomes a matter of personal networking..... Iron Bear Master of Bruin Cottage (A Victorian Lifestyle poly home) "I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does."** (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)

magicone -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 3:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear There is of course another aspect of this. it is entirely possible for people to build a false picture of this and anyother lifestyle or group because of the people they have met and with whom they have experienced it with. A good example would be from a personal experience of mine. pre moving to Queensland, I had excelent experiences in both the Pagan Communities and the SCA. Movint to Queensland I found several unpleasant things: If you are over 35 people don;'t want to know you no matter your experience or ability. If you have something like a 30 year age difference between yourself and your partner, you are disgusting and not welcome (my wife is 30 years younger. If you weren't born in Queensland or lived here most of your life you can fk off. I found that by changing my perspectives in 1 and 2 certainly did make a lot of diferrence and enjoyed all the things i wanted to continue with but not with either the SCA or the mainstreem Pagans. Number three can be worked around once you study the lay of the land and work on getting on well with key people.. It thus becomes a matter of personal networking..... Iron Bear Master of Bruin Cottage (A Victorian Lifestyle poly home) "I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does."** (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester) thats a very good point to me honestly... i myself have to say - here in germany we have a pretty good community. and here it is .. we protect each other... and try to put the jerkes off. so we share information especially when a lot of people have the same experience with someone... but we have also a very good law system here and people will be charged even when they step over a limit in hard play (as some of you mentioned)... just a no and someone does not listen is enuogh to charge you here..... so it may all depends from where you coming... beside ... and thats a part of life if you put something out - there are always people will agree with you and some are not....

texancutie2 -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 3:44:31 PM)
Hope that was in response to the Op...because I sure am not going on about anyone...lol. I personally don't think it is possible for everyone to band together, nationwide or locally. It's not like this is the Rainbow Coalition or the NAACP or anything. Though am sure they have problems of course too. There will always be disagreements between folks 'lifestyle' or not. Though one thing I have noticed that is basic human nature, is that people will lend an ear to someone that is hurting about something or someone, but eventually in time if one keeps harping about someone and is not letting that hurt or anger go, people start turning a deaf ear.

CalifChick -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 3:55:08 PM)
Iron Bear, it's funny that you said SCA, because what I was thinking was that she needs an SCA household that is formed around BDSM. I loved the group I started with in the SCA (go Ansteorra); the people I found when I moved to another Kingdom... not so much. Cali

stella41b -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 8:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justhonest quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b If you have beliefs and values why not try putting them into practice BEFORE you meet someone and not afterwards? Haven't you ever thought that you're coming across to others like a whiny 4 year old toddler in some playgroup and not a responsible, mature adult? Just asking.. nope and with all respect - as my title mention - doubting the lifestyle. i am not here to discuss.. what is abuse and what not... we have a credo sounds like SSC... all things are beyond that - definitly abuse to myself... abuse is abuse and there exist much more than the physical stuff. i am pretty sure also - all people are abused once know very well - most abusers come in the most freindly, gentle way until they change.... i was just wondering about the kind of community this lifestyle has and all the - (please thats not an offend, neither misunderstand me) sister/ brother stuff - but when it comes to the truth.... the old slogan fits... people don't wanna hear the truth... just confuse me very much in a lifestyle like this - cause i always felt otherwise about that lifestyle... but like it was mentioned before - that lifestyle isn't better nor worse than the "vanilla" world... so i did learned something! justhonest 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.' (Jesus Christ) The Gospel according to John.

LadyPact -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/23/2008 9:00:30 PM)
What you have here are doubts in a person, or people. Not a doubt in the lifestyle. To Me, that's a vast difference. I do not want to lay blame on the victim (you) if you feel you were abused. However, you may have learned some important lessons. You may have come to realize that some of the things you will hear preached on these boards and through other areas of information, might be worth more than just free advice. Next time, you will know how to handle the situation better. For those of us who have been around a day or two, I will tell you that you are absolutely correct in the thought that there are some abusers who hide within the lifestyle as a sort of permission slip for their activities. I wish I could say that it wasn't true, but it is, so you might want to take that into account in your future dealings. Now, as to your question, as to why the 'community at large' (paraphrasing here, but that was what I got from your post) didn't alert you or warn you that the individual you were dealing with might fall into the abusive category. Well, it's a delicate area. The thing about what makes the determination of whether a dynamic is abusive or not isn't left up to those who might be acquainted in some way by extention. It is completely up to the parameters of the parties involved whether or not the activities are consentual or risk aware. Nobody else gets to make that choice for anyone else, and isn't that a good thing? I'll say one thing more, and then I'm going to shut up. It's been My personal experience to have seen the lifestyle community go over and above extending themselves to those who have been victims of abuse. I'm talking about everything that can possibly be done for a victim the minute consent has been withdrawn. People have opened their homes for shelter. Given financial support and donations when someone needed to start over. Offered professional services for free. Don't give up so fast on those in the lifestyle. They are some of the most charitable people I know.

ponyboyachilles -> RE: doubting en it isnt D/sthe lifestyle... (3/24/2008 5:10:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justhonest due to a recent experience i had... i did met a so called DOM - but wasn't at all. i did had to found out that he was a fake, a predator, a player - but hell not a Dom, Top, Master at all. he use BDSM as an accusse to abuse women. in the meantime i spoke with some former women of him and they told me as well. however - beside it is a big dissppointment ( and i have done some mistakes as well you should do as a sub - like checking references) and some personal issues the story involves... i did outted him - made my experience with him publically. some of the lifestyle people told me about that he knew him before and that he was an abuser - but none so far one of his former women had the gut to stand up for what they saw is wrong. for me - and that is something i really can not understand and confuse me to depths of my soul. this lifestyle claims for themself honesty, trust, faith... and in telling the truth people attack you for outting out an abuser? can anyone explain that to me? or may i am just totally wrong in that lifestyle? justhonest It seems to me that you came across a predatory, abusive person who is using BDSM as an excuse. Predators use all kinds of excuses to gain someone's trust, and D/s is an obvious choice for such. But a fundamental cornerstone of D/s is SSC (safe, sane, & consensual) and if it isnt SSC (and it sounds like your experience wasnt) then it isnt D/s, it's abuse, plain and simple. Run, not walk, away, and the next time you find someone you think you'd like to play with, ask a trusted kinky friend to act as a "safety net" (I'm big on these) and make sure the person you intend to play with knows the safety net is there (such as requiring the new person in your life to accept a call from the safety net to go over the rules, your limits, his intentions with you, etc.) If the new person is honestly interested in D/s and in you as a person rather than a victim, he should not have a problem with spending as much time on the phone with your safety net as the safety net wishes, and acting friendly and non-threatened by the phone call. After you've agreed to meet for play, make sure the safety net has accurate personal information on the new person (real name, address, phone number, etc.) and set a specific time to call the safety net after you have left the presence of the new person. If the safety net doesnt get the agreed-upon call or you fail to say a specific pre-arranged code word during the call that lets him/her know you're OK, he/she calls the cops. If you're still uneasy after all the precautions (and you refuse to walk away at that point, which would be my recommendation), insist that the safety net be present for any play activity (and make sure your safety net has a safety net of his/her own if he/she decides to to be physically present with you and your new person during play). Most predators will reveal themselves by balking at one or more of your safety-related demands. Having said all of this, I still believe a D/s relationship is the only kind of relationship I can ever be happy in, and I presume most kinksters feel that way too. So if D/s is what you want (and only you can make that decision), I would not recommend giving up the lifestyle because you had one bad experience. Learn from it, play it safer next time, and enjoy!

Aileen1968 -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 5:32:08 AM)
You refuse to give any kind of details about this abuse that you endured. Not what kind, for how long, was it once or every session, etc. How can you expect any kind of answer that could be accurate for your situation. Seems like all you may want is sympathy and poor poor you posts for a situation that you may be equally responsible for. It seems just from here that you aren't good in comunicating which may be part of the problem. Good luck with that.

warrenwriter -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 9:20:36 AM)
re: abuse -- I'd have to agree with most on here that a BDSM relationship is still, in essence, a relationship, and responsibility falls on both parties to make sure it's a healthy relationship, regardless of kink applied. If a submissive/slave feels that they are being abused by their Top, then they should commicate it to the Top (just as anyone who feels they are being abused should talk to the so-called abuser). If the situation doesn't improve or gets worse, it not a healthy place to be, and the submissive/slave to should leave or call appropriate authorities. If you're being restrained against your will, it's a pretty serious crime (just ask Boy George), and it should involve the police. After sessions with my submissives, I always make sure they are comfortable with what happened and everything is hunky-dory. It's part of the communication required in relationships, and it's something I make sure the submissives know right from the start. re: communities -- I've seen good communities and bad communities, and I've seen good communities go to bad communities. I'm never moving to Queensland (laughs). But the individual communities aren't reflective of the "lifestyle" in general. The group I used to attend was a great bunch of people, but as communties do, the membership changed, and it felt more like high school rather than an adult function. But that's normal. Perhaps one day I'll return and see if people are still divided into cliques of "Real Doms and Subs" or they're a more inclusive community.

TeachMeTonight -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 10:24:57 AM)
I think we have to recogonize that the issue is not always with the dominant. The submissive person is just as likely to be the person who is dishonest. In addition, I have witnessed thrid parties spreading lies about a couple. Should the community react to every claim of abuse by banning people? What kind of power would we be giving to those who are spreading lies and gossip? It is a bit of a dilimea because I do know someone who was held against her will and raped on a first date/get to know each other night. As mentioned here, she did not feel she could be successful going to authorities because of her kink. Certainly real predators exist and use our community as a cloak for their activities. It is a matter of balance, when someone claims abuse it should neither be totally dismissed nor should it be accepted as truth without validation. For those who are interested in this topic the NLA has good information on their web site. This link is for a flyer on the topic of BDSM and abuse: http://www.nlaidvproject.us/pdfs/KnowTheDifference.pdf

Stephann -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 10:43:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justhonest due to a recent experience i had... i did met a so called DOM - but wasn't at all. i did had to found out that he was a fake, a predator, a player - but hell not a Dom, Top, Master at all. he use BDSM as an accusse to abuse women. in the meantime i spoke with some former women of him and they told me as well. however - beside it is a big dissppointment ( and i have done some mistakes as well you should do as a sub - like checking references) and some personal issues the story involves... i did outted him - made my experience with him publically. some of the lifestyle people told me about that he knew him before and that he was an abuser - but none so far one of his former women had the gut to stand up for what they saw is wrong. for me - and that is something i really can not understand and confuse me to depths of my soul. this lifestyle claims for themself honesty, trust, faith... and in telling the truth people attack you for outting out an abuser? can anyone explain that to me? or may i am just totally wrong in that lifestyle? justhonest Erm, my D/s lifestyle is about taking a (willing) victim, and forcing her to obey me. My BDSM lifestyle is about tying women up, spanking them, belting them, and then fucking them. The honesty, truth, and faith stuff is more to do with who I am as a person, than my kink interests. I think people make a horrible mistake when they confuse the BDSM community with a self-help support group that encourages dating between members. The assumption in a support group is that everyone there is going to be honest, supportive, and caring. It just ain't so. I'm sorry you had a terrible experience. Yet there's two sides to every story; you're welcome to tell everyone and your dog about your crappy experience, but not everyone is going to want to hear it (and unless I knew you personally as a friend, I know I wouldn't.) If you're 'outing' him, it makes you sound more like a rejected girlfriend gossiping about him. If he was, in fact, abusive to you, you have legal recourse you may pursue. That will go a lot further to protect women in the future from being hurt by him; a black mark from a sex offender registry is a very heavy burden to carry. It isn't the lifestyle you should be doubting at this point though; it should be your own judgment. You admitted the mistakes you made with this guy, and when things went sour, you're pointing the finger at everyone else. Nobody in the lifestyle is obligated to give you a soap box to preach from. It's not the special sharing circle of a support group you're hoping to make it. I'm certain this sounds harsh, but it appears to me that you are an angry victim who's looking to lash out, and not someone genuinely concerned with the safety and well being of other women. I do wish you the very best of luck in confronting these issues, and coming to terms with the experience. Nobody deserves to be hurt, but being hurt gives us a chance to grow and learn from the experiences. Warm regards, Stephan

LadyHugs -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 10:44:26 AM)
Dear justhonest, Ladies and Gentlemen; It is really difficult for me, as an individual to take a person's word that 'abuse' has taken place when there is no evidence and or circumstances that I have witnessed personally. It becomes a 'he said-she said' event. It also is, like many have posted previous--that it might not be the correct style and intensity for you but, for others--it may be perfect. The 'correct' for you is based on what you judge 'correct' for you--and you alone. When dealing with another, they are independent as anybody else. This is why communication is so very important, as to understand with clarity and beyond all doubt; as to what to expect, boundaries and the lines which establish what is and what is not abuse. When people have attempted to 'out' someone beyond the personal conversations and the quiet inter community interaction; unless there is 'public record' that any citizen can access, such as a criminal record, court record and the like; which would validate any 'alarm'--it still is 'hearsay.' And, sadly--these 'black lists' and 'outting someone' has been used more by those who just want to get even, revenge, people with evil intentions to besmirch another's reputation just for the heck of it--and not even close or ever seen the person, let alone met them; so it usually ends up like a case of 'sour grapes.' And, despite the use of 'community'--it really is an assembly of individuals rather than a community. A community gets along fairly well--and there is not the same 'support' in a national 'community' as there is in a smaller community, such in a local group, support and or education group and or clubs. The main thing I have found, is that it is easier to doubt yourself then it is to doubt others in the beginning. One learns to doubt others and never doubt yourself. Listening to your gut instincts and -- in short; you teach someone how to treat you. There are things that you should never allow--let them be your hard limits and never break them as to compromise your vow to yourself--and that is being authentic to yourself. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

thetammyjo -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 10:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirguym If somebody presents me with proof they are a criminal; and it is a law I believe that should be respected, if for instance they are abusing children, then I may act on that information and pass it on. Otherwise, there is not a lot that can be done, but advise everybody to exercise the utmost care. The problem, to sort of back the OP briefly, is that often people in the "scene" are wary of going to the police so they just don't tell anyone about their negative or even abusive experiences. Ideally, a rapist would be called a rapist and the cops would be called but too often a kinky person feels they won't be listened to or worse that they too will be targeted. Ideally an abuser would have the cops on his/her door but see the previous sentence. The reason, to address the OP more directly, that these things don't get reported is fear. Until someone feels they have more to lose by not reporting the actions than to remain quiet, they will remain quiet. Lack of realistic information about BDSM in the mainstream world and fear of being outed plague the "community"

OmegaG -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 11:09:40 AM)
there is a web site called "girl, don't date him" and their sole purpose is to give women free access to spew venom about relationships/interactions which didn't go as the woman planned. They make their money by charging men who want to rebute the claims against them. The biggest problem with this site is that women can say anything they want, the facts are not verified and often the guy won't know that he's been talked about unless someone else tells him. GDDH doesn't feel it necessary to tell people, but then, the creator seems to take the stance that women will only tell the truth and that she is just protecting her "sisters" from the pain she went through. Not only do women not always tell the truth, but they can also embelish and exagerate or they can have a totally different paradigm then others. As others on this thread have said, your bad expereince may be anothers dream. The fact that you aren't protecting anyone by legal means also tends to make me suspicious of your intentions and expereince.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: doubting the lifestyle... (3/24/2008 11:20:24 AM)
To echo what quite a few others have said... abuse is not the same for everyone. What happened to you was abuse, to you. Red flags are good indicators, but for every red flag out there, there is someone who might have a fantasy about just thst sort of arrangement. For myself, my Angel's biggest fantasy is to be completely isolated from his friends, family and life and live as my infant permanently. If he presented that to someone as MY idea, they'd think it sounded abusive. Next time you get involved, make sure you take all these precautions you relazed you should have known abnd ignored and actually use them. What wrks for you will not necessarily work for others. I am sure for al the women you talked to who agreed this Dom was a monster, there are an equal number out there who think he is amazing. Perspective changes everything. Ask some of my former pets. Some will tell you I am wonderful. Some will tell you I am an abuser. Some called me Sadistic and loved that about me, some called me harsh and couldnt deal with what I asked of them. I never asked anything different from any of them, its just how they percieved it. Even in as far as the two I have now, what is hot for Fox would be abuse for Angel. Different strokes for different folks. DV

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