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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 6:51:20 AM   
colouredin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

colouredin

the books aren't as female friendly as most of the movies about them make you think they are....
do you agree with that? I found some parts pretty gruesome.



I dont know i think it depends on the perspective, I was expecting Juliette to be a lot more feisty than she was, in fact she seemed very easily led, however in philosohy i thought that Saint Ange was a fantastic character I wouldnt consider her weak at all. In Sodom it is both male and female that are taken in. I think there were grusome parts and by in large it was male oriantated, there were a lot of gay men and not so many gay women. But at the same time there did seem to be both male and female victims as well as purpetrators, I mean the Mother Delbene in Juliette was pretty self indulgant and the four story tellers in Sodom are given a very high position.

I think it depends on the woman that reads it really, I am not very squemish (the scene in Juliette with the horse I think is the only one that really made me squirm) I dont think that it was making that much of a comment about gender differance.


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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:06:32 AM   
ThinkingKitten


Posts: 447
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From: Ontari-ari-o
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

For example the idea on murder, we are all born equal yet we as humans place ourselves ona  pedistool by banning murder. In the animal kingdom killing rivials is fine, but we cant because we are suggesting that human life is more valuable. I think thats a really interesting idea and never really thought of it in those terms previously.


I haven't read the books, so I can't offer an opinion on the rest of what you wrote, but I find the above to be somewhat erroneous. Humans are social animals. Animals which act in social groups tend NOT to engage in random killing of each other. An animal that doesn't follow the social code may  be killed or evicted from the group. They will attack and kill members of rival social groups - generally because of territorial disputes. Humans do exactly the same - only our social groups are called tribes.

Animals that follow a solitary existence however, are more likely to attack and kill members of their own kind that they encounter (notwithstanding the need to reproduce). I think it is quite possible that if humans were solitary creatures, we would be no different. A totally non-scientifically based assessment of that might be to consider the numbers of socially disadvantaged/disengaged individuals who end up as serial killers, or who walk into public gatherings and start shooting.

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:10:00 AM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Colour,

I found them pretty badly written as well. Beats me why so many seem to think they are practically "holy relics." Seems to me he was writing straight out porn, and using it as "proof" how his political theories were correct. "Presenting opinion as fact" is a propaganda technique we all learned about in high school. Just because there's some fun whipping scenes, and some kinky group sex in there, doesn't make the socialist message any more palatable.

After reading them, I could see why his family thought of him as a total embarassment, and why they paid off officials to keep him in the bastielle until the day he died.

Desade was a nutjob.

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:16:49 AM   
sirsholly


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um just dropped an animal cracker in my coffee....gonna be one of those days

[/quote]     hope it was the rhino....cheeky bastards!!!!
[/quote]

yeah...horny too!!!!!

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 3/22/2008 7:17:52 AM >

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:20:44 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I think just dismissing him as a nutjob is a bit rash, I dont agree with a lot of his ideas however he was treading totally new territory he was the first to write down these impulses in this way and though I think a lot of them were badly expressed and that the came from a rather unhealthy place his works do have value. 

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:35:31 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		It's rather amusing on a historical note. DeSade was a prime instigator of the crowd outside of the Bastille. He kept yelling exhortations and curses at the monarcy when they gathered, whipping them into a frenzy. Then they broke in and freed him, and numerous other prisoners-setting off the French revolution. He was considered a hero of the revolution for a while-but became an embarrassment to the powers that be-and they sent him off to charenton asylum to get rid of him.

DeSade expressed a darkness in human nature that was intended to shock. I think he was trying to give the people of his time a wake up call about what thier dualistic nature actually meant.

Hundreds of years later-his basic point it still valid,even through to porn and stilted prose-nutjob or no.

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:48:57 AM   
Kirren


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline 		I wish I could get My hands on them here. I tried to order them once, and the place told Me that because of where I live they can not send them. Apparently Western Kentucky has some kind of censor thing going on that I wasnt aware of.

I have been reading about him on the net alot lately, history stuff and things like that. I have to agree that discharging him as a bad writer and a nut job is really  unfair because, as has been stated, he was the first to openly admit to the darker side of human desire, and to bring to light the pleasure thats some gain via giving pain and the pleasure others give by receiving it. 

If it werent for him, I wonder where we as a community would be. If he had simply filled his role and not rocked the boat. Its very intresting to think about at times, that he could influence so many in such a manner as to start what could be considered a movement. Yet I wonder, why do we all hide, when he stood out and screamed this is what I am...this is what I do...to hell with you all?

-shrugs- But then I could only be wondering these things because its early and I have a massive head ache and havent had any coffee.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 7:51:34 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Look down the general section a few pages back. I found an online posting and copied the link there-it will give you free acess to most of his translated works-I hate censorship-and this was a way I had to make a hole in the armor.

"DeSades writings"

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:08:20 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

colouredin

the books aren't as female friendly as most of the movies about them make you think they are....
do you agree with that? I found some parts pretty gruesome.



I dont know i think it depends on the perspective, I was expecting Juliette to be a lot more feisty than she was, in fact she seemed very easily led, however in philosohy i thought that Saint Ange was a fantastic character I wouldnt consider her weak at all. In Sodom it is both male and female that are taken in. I think there were grusome parts and by in large it was male oriantated, there were a lot of gay men and not so many gay women. But at the same time there did seem to be both male and female victims as well as purpetrators, I mean the Mother Delbene in Juliette was pretty self indulgant and the four story tellers in Sodom are given a very high position.

I think it depends on the woman that reads it really, I am not very squemish (the scene in Juliette with the horse I think is the only one that really made me squirm) I dont think that it was making that much of a comment about gender differance.



in one of the books..i don't know which one..there is talk about torturing ..putting needles deep in a girl..and let her die...even very young girls..lol
still many movies just show the  romantic girl serving.

there is a reason why his name is just of course in "sado"


< Message edited by Justme696 -- 3/22/2008 8:09:04 AM >

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:08:48 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		What about copyright laws? I agree the censorship is rather fucked I dont think that any of it is all that terrible really.

My problem is this whole good/evil dark/light contrast and its something I have become very aware of recently. All this pretentious I walk in the dark crap, its all subjective if you are seeing it as dark you are seeing it as negative in my view, the desires may not be usual and there may be moral questions above them but how does that make it dark? I think thats where I was having problems initially when I came to BDSM I was under the impression that the impulses were bad and had horrible roots and all that stuff. I am trying to learn grey which is what all motivations are based in. The differance between right and wrong is hazy at best.

I have heard people say "we understand each other, we both have the dark parts" what the fuck does that mean? Everyone in life has nasty moments something about calling it dark sounds so pretentious to me. I think its interesting that a lot of kinky folks that I have met are also these goth types, all depressing music and oh doesnt the world suck and it seems to me that the whole thing is a big mess of doing this purely becuase its shocking and against the norm. I have a pink bedroom, I like pop music I also have shit in my past that isnt great but I dont feel the need to make out as though its all dark and bleak or any of that crap it winds me right up (sorry I really think I am rambling now)

Enjoying pain is a simply chemical reaction some get more from it than others but its actually in built biologically, as a society we dismiss it as odd for whatever reason but really its rather silly, I think one of the beautiful things about BDSM is that we can allow ourselves to be far more honest about what it is that we want and activly go out in search of this pleasure, It seems to me that often wanting to enjoy our bodies and have fun is looked on with destain, especially for women (seriously how many times have YOU been called a slut because you like sex? I know that I have loads but my theory is if I enjoy something and in doing it I am not fucking anyone over then who gives a shit.


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:12:08 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

in one of the books..i don't know which one..there is talk about torturing ..putting needles deep in a girl..and let her die...even very young girls..lol
still many movies just show the  romantic girl serving.

there is a reason why his name is just of course in "sado"



Well the films will be a lot sweeter, there are some very unsavory things in the books of course, but there is also a section in which a man begs a whore to put needles into his body, though I do consent it is often the women who are being violently treated against their will whereas with the men they want it, which i guess is a commentary on how Men may be more honest about what they want and going out and getting it. I didnt get the second part of what you wrote, but of course the word Sadism comes from his name, before him there wasnt a term for it, and sadism in its strictest sense is the enjoyment of inflicting pain on someone that doesnt want it.


_____________________________

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There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:17:55 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren

I wish I could get My hands on them here. I tried to order them once, and the place told Me that because of where I live they can not send them. Apparently Western Kentucky has some kind of censor thing going on that I wasnt aware of.

I have been reading about him on the net alot lately, history stuff and things like that. I have to agree that discharging him as a bad writer and a nut job is really  unfair because, as has been stated, he was the first to openly admit to the darker side of human desire, and to bring to light the pleasure thats some gain via giving pain and the pleasure others give by receiving it. 

If it werent for him, I wonder where we as a community would be. If he had simply filled his role and not rocked the boat. Its very intresting to think about at times, that he could influence so many in such a manner as to start what could be considered a movement. Yet I wonder, why do we all hide, when he stood out and screamed this is what I am...this is what I do...to hell with you all?

-shrugs- But then I could only be wondering these things because its early and I have a massive head ache and havent had any coffee.


Where did you try to order them from, Kirren?

Justine http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Justine/00000010.htm

120 Days of Sodom http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/120Days/00000010.htm

http://supervert.com/elibrary/marquis_de_sade

< Message edited by Level -- 3/22/2008 8:20:45 AM >

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:24:16 AM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		DeSade's works have been in the public domain for ages.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:27:43 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		SPARKLIESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

colouredin

the books aren't as female friendly as most of the movies about them make you think they are....
do you agree with that? I found some parts pretty gruesome.

have never seen a deSaade movie...did Merchant-Ivory do one??? 'Cause that's my kink....


See Quills.  Supposed to be about him.  R-rated, so obviously it's fairly tame compared to his writings.

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RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:32:10 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist
It's rather amusing on a historical note. DeSade was a prime instigator of the crowd outside of the Bastille. He kept yelling exhortations and curses at the monarcy when they gathered, whipping them into a frenzy. Then they broke in and freed him, and numerous other prisoners-setting off the French revolution.

This is more accurate than the comment a couple pages ago that he died before the Bastille was stormed, but still does not appear to be 100% correct.

#1) DeSade died in 1814.  The Bastille was stormed on July 14, 1789.

#2) In early July 1789, DeSade was in the Bastille.  He egged on the crowd, shouting that the jailers were killing prisoners.

#3) It appears he was transferred to a mental institution on July 4, 1789 -- due to insanity or being a pain in the ass to the authorities, your call.  In any case, current historical "fact" is that he was not present for the actual storming of the Bastille.

< Message edited by RedMagic1 -- 3/22/2008 8:33:58 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:38:03 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry I have no clue where I got that from I wasnt awake, re-read the biography bit it says he was siezed without trial on march 5 1801 then charged with seducing the younger prisoners then transfered to a mazimum security for misbehaving (not known details) he was moved on april 26 1803 to the asylum where he died on dec 2 1814 

< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/22/2008 8:40:00 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:47:51 AM   
Kirren


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren

I wish I could get My hands on them here. I tried to order them once, and the place told Me that because of where I live they can not send them. Apparently Western Kentucky has some kind of censor thing going on that I wasnt aware of.

I have been reading about him on the net alot lately, history stuff and things like that. I have to agree that discharging him as a bad writer and a nut job is really  unfair because, as has been stated, he was the first to openly admit to the darker side of human desire, and to bring to light the pleasure thats some gain via giving pain and the pleasure others give by receiving it. 

If it werent for him, I wonder where we as a community would be. If he had simply filled his role and not rocked the boat. Its very intresting to think about at times, that he could influence so many in such a manner as to start what could be considered a movement. Yet I wonder, why do we all hide, when he stood out and screamed this is what I am...this is what I do...to hell with you all?

-shrugs- But then I could only be wondering these things because its early and I have a massive head ache and havent had any coffee.


Where did you try to order them from, Kirren?

Justine http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Justine/00000010.htm

120 Days of Sodom http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/120Days/00000010.htm

http://supervert.com/elibrary/marquis_de_sade



I started off with interlibrary loan...then I went to....shit...I cant think of it now...It was a BDSM book store of sorts...I think one of My whole salers that I used when I had the toy shop....

Ill try again...I would LOVE to have them

_____________________________

Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name


Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:52:06 AM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		my impression is that, just like john norman writing about gorean life, it makes for good fiction, that some people are fucking nuts, and that there's someone for everyone!

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 8:56:28 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirren


I started off with interlibrary loan...then I went to....shit...I cant think of it now...It was a BDSM book store of sorts...I think one of My whole salers that I used when I had the toy shop....

Ill try again...I would LOVE to have them


I'd try amazon.com, they have a number of editions for sale.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Kirren)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sade - 3/22/2008 9:01:25 AM   
GabrielleSlave


Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline 		i am currently ploughing my way through Philosophy and i have to say that some of Dolmance's arguments, when you think about them dispassionately, are frighteningly logical.  i must admit to having read the ending already after stumbling upon an essay on the book... i found the rape of Eugenie's mother by her own daughter and the subsequent mutilation by Dolmance to be awful.  However, i wonder if i would have been so shocked had the relationship between those characters not been the ones they were...?  i think not...! 

i also have Sodom waiting to be read, so i will get on with PitB....

Gabrielle x

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Profile   Post #: 40
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